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Notso
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Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 01:07 am |
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| ok, thanks for the info, wasn't sure where that stood. I guess I was just surprised to learn that there were no penalties for having a firearm in the secure area.
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whiskaz_55
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| Joined: | Sun Dec 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Yuma, Arizona USA |
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Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 02:03 am |
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None as far as the state goes. Federal though...
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Notso
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Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 04:29 am |
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| But only if you go through the front door. The rest is up to the state.
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mzbk2l
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Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 09:25 am |
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goldfishcb wrote: The way it works is.. Obviously people fly with guns (checked baggage). They have to enter the airport property with the firearm in a Hard Sided, Locked case. In sky harbor, it's posted at nearly every entrance that weapons are not allowed on the grounds (in a concealed/open carry capacity.)
Because the Airport is occupied with hundreds of federal employees, it's safe to say it's a federal facility. FAA, TSA, CBP employees are regular employees here. As we all know, packing in a federal building is a no no..
According to [CITE: 18USC930]
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC930
(1) The term ``Federal facility'' means a building or part
thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal
employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their
official duties.
(2) The term ``dangerous weapon'' means a weapon, device,
instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is
used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily
injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a
blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.
I appreciate that you may have been trained with the information you're putting out here, but it's simply not correct. Sky Harbor is a City of Phoenix facility, subject to Phoenix and Arizona laws. IF either of those entities were to decide to prohibit firearms in the non-secure areas of the airport, they would have to provide safe storage for the firearms within easy access of the entrance to the buildings, just like the courthouses do downtown. That IS the law, and there is no getting around it.
Because I don't believe there is a law available for you to cite regarding the carrying of firearms in the non-secure areas, perhaps you can point out where the firearms storage lockers for the public are located?
I understand that keeping abreast of current state firearms law may be just one of 1,000 regulations you have to stay current on to do your job, but please remember that keeping up with those same state firearms laws is probably of much greater importance to most of us on this forum. We're not trying to sneak something in on you; we just pay a LOT of attention to the law and where we can and cannot carry. None of us are interested in breaking the law. To date, I have not seen a law that would prohibit carrying at Sky Harbor, which may be why I have never run into any trouble while doing so.
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protector84
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Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 06:26 am |
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I heard that within 30 days, every sign at the entrance to the airport will state the following: "Goldfishcb prohibited."
Here is a link from the state police department of Arizona:
http://www.azdps.gov/ccw/procedures/carry.asp
Here they only reference the fact that you cannot carry beyond or in the security checkpoint.
I have noticed a problem multiple times with law enforcement personnel and from various agencies where they try to enforce laws that do not exist or try to tell you that you are breaking laws that do not exist. That is scary if we have people who are sworn to uphold and enforce laws and don't know what the hell they are doing and at the same time are encouraging a police state by making up laws as they go along. Here are three examples:
Example 1: The moron here who insists that it is illegal to carry in Sky Harbor and then resorts to insults and threats when we disagree with him. I remember one time on the news they also said that you cannot even have weapons in your car if your car was "anywhere near" the airport and that the police had the right to stop you and search your car if you were "anywhere near" the airport. What is scary is that the public is eating up this police state as it is being fed to them. As usual, no actual laws to cite, just made-up ones.
Example 2: A state trooper pulled me over one time and told me that the U-turn I made was "illegal" and wrote me a ticket. He insisted that it was not legal to turn there even though there was no sign prohibiting it. I explained the law, he had to go back to his car and call his supervisor who also said that it was illegal to turn there. So I go to court and the cop tells the judge the same thing. I insisted that no such law existed in title 28 and gave reasons why the specific violation I was charged with did not apply. The judge also said there was no law stating it was illegal and threw out the case. The cop then makes a statement, "It should be illegal" to which the judge then says something along the lines of "we enforce laws that exist, not laws we feel should exist." So I get off the ticket but lose time and money fighting it. The judge asked to have a "word" with the ticketing officer and did not seem happy. Again, a case where you do everything legal but the cop either doesn't know what he is doing or simply doesn't like you and wants to make up the rules as he goes along to make your life difficult for you. So much for a free country.
Example 3: Since this is an Arizona forum, most of you will be fairly familiar with the University of Arizona in Tucson assuming most Arizonans have at least been to Tucson. The U of A has a no weapons "policy." One time I asked a U of A campus police officer to give me more "information" on this "policy." The cop said that nobody can have any weapons on campus or "anywhere near campus." I asked him about the public streets that bisect the campus. He said you cannot even have weapons on the streets that cut through campus. He made a reference to "Speedway Blvd." which is one of the major roads cutting through campus and said that if you are walking or driving down that road you cannot have a gun on you. If you are carrying a gun, you cannot even be on Speedway Blvd. that goes through there. I then asked him what about people who own homes or live in apartments on campus. He said that they cannot even have guns in their own homes. This wasn't just one cop's opinion, however, but apparently is the opinion of the entire department as they gave a "safety talk" to students in which the same basic statements were made.
Here is the reality: There is no law anywhere on the books in Arizona prohibiting firearms or other weapons on the campus. It is merely a policy and not a law. Since it is state property, they have to abide by state law which says that if they choose to prohibit weapons, they have to provide storage lockers at the entrances to drop the weapons off upon entrance to the facility. None of the campus buildings have lockers that I know of. Additionally, this only refers to property actually owned by the University and would not apply to vehicle carry or carry on the property until the storage lockers are reached. In other words, you would have the right to carry through campus in your vehicle to the parking garage or meter and then carry on campus until you reach the building where you must check your weapon. This is clearly what the "storage law" means. They must have storage and if they don't you have the right to carry. I would hate to be the test case for this but it is extremely disturbing that LEOs are telling the public and threatening to enforce laws that are not in existance. Additionally, private property is exempt. If private property is located on the campus, then it isn't state property but is simply private property surrounded by the state property. They cannot prohibit weapons on private property as only the owner or representative of that property can. I have carried openly at gas stations and fast food restaurants located right "on campus" or at least the area that the cops consider to be the "campus." I've had funny looks from students but no problems. They cannot prohibit carry on any of the streets as he claimed, either.
It is clearly disturbing, though, that they insist on these laws existing when they don't. If they don't have storage lockers, I can legally carry right into the campus buildings. Maybe someone should try it and then sue if they get arrested or hassled. I have heard of two test cases already where one student had a knife taken away and another was arrested for firearm possession. As far as I heard, in both cases the police had to return their weapons to them and the charge for the gun possession was thrown out by the judge because it wasn't illegal.
There have been some news stories lately about making it "legal" to CCW on campus but it was never illegal to begin with. A policy is very different from a law and it is only a policy that is not being enforced in a lawful manner. Some gun rights advocates with some attorneys should get to the bottom of this.
Sorry for the long post but this thread was a great opportunity to demonstrate how police make up laws as they go along only encouraging a police state.
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only_one
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Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 11:05 am |
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Hello all,
This is my first post on this site but i have been reading quite a bit. I finally decided to register so that i can participate in this wonderful site. I too live in Tucson so the campus thing was very interesting to me. I appreciate that (extra long)...er i mean excellent post.  It was very imformative. I simply cannot believe that the officer on campus said that speedway was off limits. So technically if we were driving down speedway carrying our weapon we would have to make a detour to go all the way around campus so that we would break the law? haha good one.
I wish we could get enough people together with a few lawyers and just make a stand. Have a sort of parade that just walked through campus and around Sky Harbor all carrying. 
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MarkNH
State Researcher
| Joined: | Fri May 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | New Hampshire USA |
| Posts: | 48 |
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Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 11:22 am |
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goldfishcb wrote
I am not looking to take anyone out, I can't speak for my friends. The TSA doens't have to arrest you, the Phoenix PD will though.
If you seriously think I am lying, then go into Sky harbor packing and walk up to a cop and strike up a conversation.. Then post his name and badge number on the forum with a physical description and ill talk to him about what local jail you are in
Now that I have joined this forum and seen the kinds of morons that frequent it I will not be coming back. Please remove my username and ban my IP address from the domain so I can't accidentally come back.
Goodbye, idiots.. @#$%ing morons.
Unfortunately goldfishcb seems typical of the TSA employees I have encountered - quick to anger, poorly trained and educated, and unwilling to accept criticism. Now they all want badges and pseudo-police uniforms because they aren't respected enough 
Many people here (including myself) have carried in airports (outside of the secure areas), many have open carried past local police officers etc in those airports.
It is not against the law.
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400HP
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| Joined: | Fri Apr 25th, 2008 |
| Location: | Arizona |
| Posts: | 47 |
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Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 02:59 pm |
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only_one wrote: Hello all,
This is my first post on this site but i have been reading quite a bit. I finally decided to register so that i can participate in this wonderful site. I too live in Tucson so the campus thing was very interesting to me. I appreciate that (extra long)...er i mean excellent post. It was very imformative. I simply cannot believe that the officer on campus said that speedway was off limits. So technically if we were driving down speedway carrying our weapon we would have to make a detour to go all the way around campus so that we would break the law? haha good one.
I wish we could get enough people together with a few lawyers and just make a stand. Have a sort of parade that just walked through campus and around Sky Harbor all carrying.
A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:.....
12. Possessing a deadly weapon on school grounds; or
Speedway has been a question for me...Last edited on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 02:59 pm by 400HP
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lostone1413
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Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 03:03 pm |
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goldfishcb wrote:
The TSA does infact have arresting powers.. Ever heard of a Federal Air Marshal? Under AATSA, they can arrest you under pure suspicion
Federal Officers don't roam the grocery store in a job related capacity where they perform their duties.
I am not looking to take anyone out, I can't speak for my friends. The TSA doens't have to arrest you, the Phoenix PD will though.
If you seriously think I am lying, then go into Sky harbor packing and walk up to a cop and strike up a conversation.. Then post his name and badge number on the forum with a physical description and ill talk to him about what local jail you are in
Now that I have joined this forum and seen the kinds of morons that frequent it I will not be coming back. Please remove my username and ban my IP address from the domain so I can't accidentally come back.
Goodbye, idiots.. @#$%ing morons.
Well for starters I have open carried at Sky Harbor many times. I have also talked to police while I have been inside Sky Harbor
If you do work for TSA I guess knowing the Law and Intelligence isn't a requirement for employment
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NavyLT
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 03:14 pm |
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Even if goldfishcb was correct in his ASSUMPTION that Sky Harbor is Federal Property, which he is not, it would have to be posted IAW 18 USC 930:
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be
posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility,
and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each
public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be
convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a
Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility,
unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the
case may be.
The signs would have to state specifically that you were entering Federal Property and firearms were prohibited by 18 USC 930. IF Sky Harbor were Federal Property, and it isn't, and those specific signs that have to specifically reference 18 USC 930 are not present, they cannot prosecute you.
If you want to see an example of the signs, just go the gate of the nearest US Military base or post.
Do you have any comments, goldfishcb, as to why Sky Harbor Airport does not have the 18 USC 930 signs posted?
Last edited on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 03:15 pm by NavyLT
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Notso
Activist Member
| Joined: | Sun May 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Laveen, Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 110 |
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Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 05:31 pm |
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| I think he got mad and left the party.
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whiskaz_55
Activist Member
| Joined: | Sun Dec 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Yuma, Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 49 |
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Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 08:14 pm |
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400HP wrote: only_one wrote: Hello all,
This is my first post on this site but i have been reading quite a bit. I finally decided to register so that i can participate in this wonderful site. I too live in Tucson so the campus thing was very interesting to me. I appreciate that (extra long)...er i mean excellent post. It was very imformative. I simply cannot believe that the officer on campus said that speedway was off limits. So technically if we were driving down speedway carrying our weapon we would have to make a detour to go all the way around campus so that we would break the law? haha good one.
I wish we could get enough people together with a few lawyers and just make a stand. Have a sort of parade that just walked through campus and around Sky Harbor all carrying.
A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:.....
12. Possessing a deadly weapon on school grounds; or
Speedway has been a question for me...
Read at the bottom what a "school" is defined as. Colleges don't fall under it.
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exgabrit
Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 21st, 2008 07:57 pm |
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I was wondering the same things about Hartsfiels Jackson in Atlanta.
My thoughts are that 1) its not a federal building. 2) there are NO signs on the exterior of the build saying "NO FIREARMS", thus meaning YES guns allowed. 3) security checkpoint implicitly states "NO FIREARMS", therefore again, meaning same as item 2.
so ticketing and baggage claim all the way to security should be ok to carry. in atlanta we will as of july 1st be able to carry on public transport, which does actual go to the airport i.e. subway trains.
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Jared
Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 03:23 am |
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goldfishcb wrote: The way it works is.. Obviously people fly with guns (checked baggage). They have to enter the airport property with the firearm in a Hard Sided, Locked case. In sky harbor, it's posted at nearly every entrance that weapons are not allowed on the grounds (in a concealed/open carry capacity.)
Because the Airport is occupied with hundreds of federal employees, it's safe to say it's a federal facility. FAA, TSA, CBP employees are regular employees here. As we all know, packing in a federal building is a no no..
According to [CITE: 18USC930]
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC930
(1) The term ``Federal facility'' means a building or part
thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal
employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their
official duties.
(2) The term ``dangerous weapon'' means a weapon, device,
instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is
used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily
injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a
blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.
The offices where CBP and others are stationed at is federal property, the baggage claim or burger king is not federal property.
Phoenix PD patrol the airport. Almost all LEO's in Arizona are educated on open carry, it' not a problem.
Are you by any chance one of the guys in this TSA video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7AWw7t5zj0
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ed
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 12:50 pm |
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mzbk2l wrote: Welcome, GoldfishCB.
Unless there's been a new law passed recently, I don't believe you are correct. Firearms are allowed on the non-secure side of the checkpoint. Always have been.
Do you have a cite to a law that states otherwise?
Here is the letter I got from the chief of Police in VA for Dulles and National Airports:
http://www.vcdl.org/letters/mwaa2008.pdf
Ed
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mzbk2l
Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 03:18 pm |
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Thanks, Ed. Interesting reading, but fortunately not applicable to Arizona. In addition to Sky Harbor being a City of Phoenix facility (rather than some other quasi-government body like the Airport Authority there), it also falls under Arizona's laws requiring that public facilities that prohibit firearms must post signs and provide storage for the firearms.
In the absence of those two conditions, Sky Harbor is subject to the rest of Arizona's preemption laws and cannot restrict firearms in non-secured areas.
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ed
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 03:21 pm |
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| Well, thanks to you too.. thee reason I even posted that was to show you what I am up against.. that letter was to ME. I am still trying to find out if they have legal authority to ban from the non-secure areas of the terminal.
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bbvk05
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Posted: Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 07:30 pm |
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Right on about the posting requirement if Sky harbor were a federal facility.
I am pretty sure that Phoenix just lets the Fed acencies have offices, I dont think they are formally leased.
In either case, I OC'd to sky harbor last week to pick up a friend. In the baggage claim area i got a nod from a cop, thats it.
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RickG
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 03:08 pm |
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Hi,
I do not usually belong to this forum but there is some misinformation included in some of the responses. I am police Lieutenant assigned to Sky Harbor International Airport and would like to provide the straight scoop.
Arizona has weapons laws that are designed to protect the individual's right to carry weapons. On the other side the state tries to establish a reasonable amount of security at major infrastructures without infringing on those rights any more than necessary. Thus the Arizona law governing weapons at Sky Harbor and other airports is tailored for that purpose.
The fact is, you can carry weapons in the public areas at Sky Harbor International Airport. Will it draw attention? The answer is yes. Unfortunately we do not all wear signs on us that proclaim our intentions and as we all know there are some people in our society that are unbalanced. These individuals, although very small in number, do create difficulties at times for people who want to legitimately carry a weapon because the police officers may contact any individual with a weapon to try and determine their intentions. My officers should be polite and the contact is consentual. I hope you will understand the purpose is not to make life difficult, it is to ensure safety and there is no other way to identify a good honest citizen carrying a weapon from an individual who may have bad intentions, other than talking to them.
The airport is not federal property, although some might think it is. Do not take the weapons beyond the security checkpoints or in SIDA areas of the air operations areas. Private plane owners and people taking charter flights from Fixed Based Operations (Swift, Cutter Aviation etc) have some exemptions in those areas. The FBOs can explain the rules that apply to their areas if you give them a call. The laws governing firearms are designed to protect the right to carry, while protecting only the most critical areas of the airport. If there are organizations that wish to have more information on the laws governing weapons at Sky Harbor I would be happy to have someone come talk to your group. I hope this helps. Suffice it to say, the Phoenix Police officers will not arrest a person for carrying a weapon in the public areas of Sky Harbor unless they are displaying it in a threatening manner (pointing it at people, shouting, etc.). We will contact people carrying weapons in a consentual manner, as I noted above, to determine intentions. Hopefully you can work with us on this matter.
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mzmtg
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 04:10 pm |
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exgabrit wrote: I was wondering the same things about Hartsfiels Jackson in Atlanta.
My thoughts are that 1) its not a federal building. 2) there are NO signs on the exterior of the build saying "NO FIREARMS", thus meaning YES guns allowed. 3) security checkpoint implicitly states "NO FIREARMS", therefore again, meaning same as item 2.
so ticketing and baggage claim all the way to security should be ok to carry. in atlanta we will as of july 1st be able to carry on public transport, which does actual go to the airport i.e. subway trains.
Up until July 1, 2008, it was most definitely illegal to carry at Hartsfield-Jackson. GA has a state law that prohibits carry at "publicly owned or operated" buildings. It has another state law that prohibits carry on "public transportation." The airport falls under GA's legal definition of "public transportation."
However, On July 1, 2008, the law changed to explicitly permit those with licenses to carry on "public transporation."
The city and the airport are contending that carry is still illegal at the airport, though. They have already been sued for illegally regulating carry under the state's preemption statute.
Here's some more info: http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/category/action-items/hartsfield-airports-firearm-ban/
Last edited on Tue Jul 8th, 2008 04:20 pm by mzmtg
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