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WhiteDingo
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Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 07:47 pm |
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As stated in my other post, I'll be moving to AZ in about a month; the Prescott area to be specific. I'm a current resident of California, and as you can imagine, open carrying here is alot more problematic than I have read about in AZ.
For instance, here in CA, in order to open carry in most locations, the weapon must be fully exposed, be completely unloaded, and if it uses a magazine, said magazine must also be exposed (as it's considered part of the firearm). Revolver speedloaders don't fall under this restriction, but it's not a whole lot better.
My question is, what is the state of Arizona's definition of a "loaded" firearm? Can there be a magazine in the weapon, round in the chamber? Or does it need to not have a round in the chamber? I'd like to have this worked out before I move out, so I can start carrying right away.
In CA, in State Gov't. buildings, the definition of "loaded" is even having the ammunition for the firearm on your person!! So a buddy and I could walk into a state building, carrying each other's mags (as long as they're not compatible), and we'd be fine, theoretically....
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dreamcro
Activist Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 01:10 am |
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| In AZ full mag in the firearm + 1 in the chamber is the way to do it. Hammer back if you have a 1911 style. Happy OC'ing!!
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AZkopper
Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 02:45 am |
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You may open carry, fully loaded, with 1 in the chamber. If OC with no CCW permit, the handgun must be in a belt holster, and the holster must be "wholly or partially visible". Basically, if it is readily clear you are wearing a handgun or holster, you are OK.
You may OC a longgun, too, but it must be in a scabbard designed for the carrying of weapons, and also be "wholly or partially visible".
Loaded guns in cars (without CCW) must be either 1) in plain sight; 2) in a holster; 3) in a glovebox/center console box.
Per Yavapai Tribal PD, you can carry on Tribal Lands (Frontier Village strip mall, specifically).
If a private business posts 'no weapons' or 'no guns' (any similar wording) at entrances, you are technically trespassing, and may be asked to leave. Refusal is then trespassing.
You cannot carry in a bar or a restaraunt that serves alcohol. You cannot carry at a public event that serves alcohol.
You cannot carry at a polling place, school (K-12), nuclear or hydroelectric plant.
The usual federal buildings are also victim zones.
If you go to a public establishment (town hall, etc) or public event (street fair, etc, where alcohol is not being served), and they deny you carrying there, they must provide you a secure place to store your gun that is readily available to you when you choose to leave.
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mzbk2l
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| Location: | Mesa, Arizona USA |
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Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 10:00 am |
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Very nice summary, AZkopper. Thanks, and welcome to OCDO!
WhiteDingo, welcome to OCDO and to Arizona. 
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Dahwg
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Posted: Tue Jul 1st, 2008 01:34 pm |
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AZkopper wrote: You may open carry, fully loaded, with 1 in the chamber. If OC with no CCW permit, the handgun must be in a belt holster, and the holster must be "wholly or partially visible". Basically, if it is readily clear you are wearing a handgun or holster, you are OK.
You may OC a longgun, too, but it must be in a scabbard designed for the carrying of weapons, and also be "wholly or partially visible".
Loaded guns in cars (without CCW) must be either 1) in plain sight; 2) in a holster; 3) in a glovebox/center console box.
Per Yavapai Tribal PD, you can carry on Tribal Lands (Frontier Village strip mall, specifically).
If a private business posts 'no weapons' or 'no guns' (any similar wording) at entrances, you are technically trespassing, and may be asked to leave. Refusal is then trespassing.
You cannot carry in a bar or a restaraunt that serves alcohol. You cannot carry at a public event that serves alcohol.
You cannot carry at a polling place, school (K-12), nuclear or hydroelectric plant.
The usual federal buildings are also victim zones.
If you go to a public establishment (town hall, etc) or public event (street fair, etc, where alcohol is not being served), and they deny you carrying there, they must provide you a secure place to store your gun that is readily available to you when you choose to leave.
About the best summation of AZ OC laws I've seen posted yet. 
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azcdlfred
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Posted: Tue Jul 1st, 2008 09:23 pm |
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WhiteDingo wrote: My question is, what is the state of Arizona's definition of a "loaded" firearm?
In Arizona it makes no difference if your gun is loaded or unloaded - a firearm is a deadly weapon with or without ammo.
Fred
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WhiteDingo
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Posted: Tue Jul 1st, 2008 09:30 pm |
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| Well that about sums it up guys. I appreciate the responses.
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Alec411
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Posted: Fri Jul 4th, 2008 03:11 pm |
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azkopper WAS DEAD ON!
Alec411 - Retired Fed! Great Summary! AZ has bright Cops
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sddutch
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Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 01:56 pm |
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AZkopper wrote: You may OC a longgun, too, but it must be in a scabbard designed for the carrying of weapons, and also be "wholly or partially visible".
Just one comment: I don't think that a long gun "must" be carried in a scabbard designed for the carrying of weapons. I think a scabbard is just another method of carry that is available to an individual who wants to openly carry a long gun.
I have openly carried my AK-47 slung over my shoulder while riding my mountain bike out to the desert to go shooting and I put the ammunition and spare mags in a backpack; I have done this many times and it wasn't a problem.
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Alec411
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Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 05:47 pm |
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Once again AZKOPPER is correct. TO THE LETTER OF THE LAW! However, many will
look the other way at OC if he can reasonably assume that you are 'jus' goin shootin"
None of this in AZ gun laws, just be courtieous!
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protector84
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 02:14 am |
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No, AZKopper like many others here on this issue is NOT correct. Either people here are incapable of reading a simple document or are imagining that the law says things that simply aren't there. I guess I have to spell it out for the 100th time:
A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:
1. Carrying a deadly weapon without a permit pursuant to section 13-3112 except a pocket knife concealed on his person; or
It is clear here that this statute refers soley to concealed carry of weapons which is authorized by the section 13-3112 if one holds a valid permit according to that section. It doesn't say anything about "carrying a deadly weapon" in general but simply carrying one without the required permit that is relevant to the said section of the statute. Please take note of the bold print that I emphasized.
2. Carrying a deadly weapon without a permit pursuant to section 13-3112 concealed within immediate control of any person in or on a means of transportation; or
Same as above. This refers to concealed carry without a permit. Both of these statutes specifically refer to carry without a concealed weapons permit issued by DPS in the statute. Nothing here is said or makes any reference at all to "open carry" of weapons.
F. Subsection A, paragraph 1 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a belt holster which holster is wholly or partially visible, or carried in a scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons which scabbard or case is wholly or partially visible or carried in luggage.
This is where people for some strange reason continue to get confused. This is still talking about concealed carry as that is what Subsection A, paragraph 1 is about. If it wasn't about concealed carry, it wouldn't have said "pursuant to section 13-3112" which is about the DPS-issued concealed weapons permit. This section F contains exemptions to certain types of concealed carry. If a gun is in luggage, then it is naturally concealed. If a gun is in a case, it is concealed. If a weapon is in a holster or scabbard, naturally part of the weapon is going to be concealed (the part that is inside the holster or scabbard). This exemption is designed most likely to avoid technicalities over open carry where part of the weapon is indeed concealed. No where does this statute mandate that open carry must be done in this fashion. Again, it allows certain types of concealed carry. For one, the entire weapon can be concealed as long as the holster, scabbard, or case it is in is visible. If it was required that you had to have the gun in some type of case or holster at all times, it would say so. Show me where it says "must have in case/holster" because I don't see it there. You can stand right on the street corner passing your firearms around to your friends showing each other your pieces but as long as you are not handling them in a dangeorus or reckless manner, it is legal. If you can find a statute showing me you cannot do that, please post it here. Luggage, I assume, would refer to things like suitcases and backpacks. Not so sure about purses. This says you can carry concealed without the concealed permit if the gun is inside your luggage. Not rocket science to figure out.
Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.
Again, paragraph 2 is specifically about the DPS-issued concealed weapons permit and this part of section F provides further exemptions. This is where the "two action" concept comes forth. Notice how this portion says absolutely nothing about the gun or other weapon having to be visible. It says nothing about visible weapons here. All it says is that the gun has to be inside of some type of "case." If your gun is under the seat and not in a holster, you will need to have a CCW permit. If the gun is under the seat but in a holster, it is exempted by this section. If a gun is in some type of "case" such as a holster, it would require "two actions" to use it--uncasing it and firing it vs. one action--simply grabing it and firing it. They teach you in the CCW permit class, that state law considers a holstered gun for the purposes of this section as "cased." Now one can reasonably assume that this exemption does not apply to to a gun that is actually on one's person while in the vehicle as paragraph 1 refers to that portion. So if the holstered gun is being worn by you while you are driving, paragraph 1 would apply but if the gun was somewhere else in the car and not on anyone's person, paragraph 2 applies.
You can read the entire weapons and explosives section up and down, and you won't find anything about open carry which means that open carry is legal here. You can walk around all you want with an AK-47, shotgun, sword, bow and arrows, etc. Just don't conceal them unless you either have the permit or at least have the "case" visible if they are in a type of case (such as a holster) and don't point them at other people or display them in a reckless, threatening, or dangerous manner. Unless you can prove otherwise with actual quotes from the statutes, I rest my case.
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Dahwg
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 02:40 am |
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| We can read the statue until we're blue in the face, we can all come to some conclusion as to what the statute means, and we can alsob be unanimous in our opinion. But that means squat! We can't really read the statute without knowing the case law. We need to know what the court says the statute means, so we can continue to pick over the statute, but at best we're parsing words and engaging in a pissing contest. If you want to know the full score, you need to have the case law plain and simple.
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Alec411
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 03:13 pm |
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HAVING LOOKED AT "PROTECTOR'"S PRESENTATION OF THE TOTAL OF APPLICABLE STATUTES; HIS CONCLUSION CAN NOT BE REFUTED. BY NOT ADDRESSING "OPEN CARRY" THE LEGISLATURE CLEARLY "DOES NOT" PROHIBIT CARRY IN THE MANNER DESCRIBED IN THE ORIGINAL STATUTE.
PROTECTOR -- THANKS FOR ALL YOUR EFFORTS & WORK
RETIRED FED GS-1811
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Sonora Rebel
Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2008 09:45 pm |
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ARMS... in general. There is no provion I know of that permits a concealed large sheath knife... but you can wear one on yer hip (visible) any length. Sword too if ya wanna.
'The right of the people to keep and bear arms indefense of themselves or the state shall not be impaired" Art 26 AZ Constitution
Justice Scalia: (Heller vs DC)
"The Second Amendment applies prima facie to all instruments constituting bearable arms. " That blew right past the talkin' heads.
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azcdlfred
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Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2008 10:03 pm |
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Sonora Rebel wrote: ARMS... in general. There is no provion I know of that permits a concealed large sheath knife... but you can wear one on yer hip (visible) any length. Sword too if ya wanna.
'The right of the people to keep and bear arms indefense of themselves or the state shall not be impaired" Art 26 AZ Constitution
(1). It is a "concealed weapons" permit and is not limited to guns. You probably need a concealed weapons permit to conceal a large knife. One my fellow CCW instructors had a student who wanted to carry a sword under his coat.
(2). Dano v. Collins in 1990 determined that "shall not be impaired" in Article 2, Section 26 of the Arizona Constitution does not apply to the carrying of concealed weapons. That's why we have a CCW permit process.
(3). State v. Adams in 1994 determined that even "open carry" can be considered concelaed carry subject to the point of view of the observer.
Fred
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like_the_roman
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Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2008 10:08 pm |
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azcdlfred wrote:
(1). It is a "concealed weapons" permit and is not limited to guns. You probably need a concealed weapons permit to conceal a large knife. One my fellow CCW instructors had a student who wanted to carry a sword under his coat.
What is considered "large"? The ARS says it's illegal conceal a deadly weapon except a "pocket knife," but there is no definition of length or even what a "pocket knife" looks like. I suppose if one could find a way to safely (though probably not comfortably) carry a bowie knife in one's front pocket, you wouldn't be violating the statute though I certainly wouldn't want to be the test case.
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Sonora Rebel
Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2008 10:43 pm |
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| I dunno case law... I don't conceal nuthin'... other than when I have my slicker on. But... I do have a CCW. 'Never thought of concealing a knife (why?). I wear one now 'n then on my gunbelt...
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like_the_roman
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Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2008 11:23 pm |
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Sonora Rebel wrote:
'Never thought of concealing a knife (why?).
Some places don't allow guns, so knives have to do.
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Sonora Rebel
Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2008 11:29 pm |
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| Some places... (most places) just say 'No Weapons'. That'd include knives.
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like_the_roman
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Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2008 11:39 pm |
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Sonora Rebel wrote:
Some places... (most places) just say 'No Weapons'. That'd include knives.
My credit union says "no firearms" not "no weapons."
Additionally, you can take knives into restaurants that have a liquor license.
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