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Citizen
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Posted: Thu Apr 17th, 2008 11:21 pm |
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I guess my main question would be whether I can respectfully decline to answer the question.
"I understand you are just doing your job, Officer. I won't be answering any questions in the absence of my attorney. May I be on my way?"
What is the exact case law on these checkpoints? What are my rights? Statutory obligations? Etc.
Maybe I'll get time to hunt them up.
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mkl
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Posted: Thu Apr 17th, 2008 11:24 pm |
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Citizen wrote:
I guess my main question would be whether I can respectfully decline to answer the question.
"I understand you are just doing your job, Officer. I won't be answering any questions in the absence of my attorney. May I be on my way?"
What is the exact case law on these checkpoints? What are my rights? Statutory obligations? Etc.
Maybe I'll get time to hunt them up.
Declining has worked for some people, not for others. If you are interested in more videos of these types of checkpoints https://www.checkpointusa.org/ on their blog section (or at https://www.checkpointusa.org/blog/ )
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Sa45auto
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Posted: Thu Apr 17th, 2008 11:43 pm |
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mkl wrote:
....To be clear I am not suggesting replacing actual border patrol with nothing....
Thanks for the clarification.
When I work down in south Texas and get stopped, this 6' 4" American of Irish decent, doesn't think he looks much like an illegal allian either.
All kidding aside, we need to do two things and do them with an iron fist.
1. Close the border. Yes I mean shoot to kill. If they come make them fear for their life.
2. Close the job market. Figurativly shoot to kill. Make ANY business that hires an illegal fear for its life.
If there are no jobs, they will not come.
When we stop the flood, it will be easier to identify those who come, not for work, but to do us harm.
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Sa45auto
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Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 12:04 am |
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Citizen wrote:
I guess my main question would be whether I can respectfully decline to answer the question.
"I understand you are just doing your job, Officer. I won't be answering any questions in the absence of my attorney. May I be on my way?"
What is the exact case law on these checkpoints? What are my rights? Statutory obligations? Etc.
Maybe I'll get time to hunt them up.
What you say is actually pretty good.
Two things to remember;
1. These guys are American Citizens, just like you, and they are just doing their job. They don't make the ruls and when they follow them and shoot an illegal bad guy, the government throws them in jail.
2. They are looking for evidence you are an American and your accent, or lack there of, when you say, " Have I done anything wrong officer, may I be on my way?", tells them all they need to know.
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Armed4Life
Member
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Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 12:22 am |
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It is only a matter of time until the simple are you a US citizen question (after a few years of no resistance) is replaced with, Your Passport or Birth Certificate please!
What exactly do these accomplish? Since the locations are known, they are easy to avoid if you are in fact illegal. The number of arrests is very low. To borrow a line from TB, they are nothing more than a lesson in obedience training.
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LEO 229
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 03:14 am |
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This video ticks me off too!!
This "former marine" was looking for trouble and was being a complete jerk on purpose.
The border patrol guys were very casual and only asked "Are you all US citizens?"
All they had to say was "yes" and they would be on their way. The border patrol are looking for those that are not citizens. There is no secret to being a citizen so it was rather pointless not to answer.
And did I hear him say "I am going to get paid off this!"
This single guy was begging for confrontation and dragged his friends into the mix. I would be kicking his ass once we were allowed to leave.
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LEO 229
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 03:16 am |
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Armed4Life wrote: It is only a matter of time until the simple are you a US citizen question (after a few years of no resistance) is replaced with, Your Passport or Birth Certificate please!
What exactly do these accomplish? Since the locations are known, they are easy to avoid if you are in fact illegal. The number of arrests is very low. To borrow a line from TB, they are nothing more than a lesson in obedience training.
Once they cross over the fence the need a ride to get to their destination and this is where they can get caught.
So what would you have done at the border?
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Armed4Life
Member
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 04:10 pm |
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LEO229,
Do you believe that it is constitutional and consistent with the 4th amendment that the government, or agent thereof, can "sieze" an individual (inside the US), compel them to answer one or more questions, and hold them indefinitely until they do, without probable cause or reasonable suspicion? This is a Yes or No answer.
Last edited on Sat Apr 19th, 2008 04:11 pm by Armed4Life
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Sa45auto
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 05:10 pm |
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| This thread has nothing to do with open carry!
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LEO 229
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 07:04 pm |
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Armed4Life wrote: LEO229,
Do you believe that it is constitutional and consistent with the 4th amendment that the government, or agent thereof, can "sieze" an individual (inside the US), compel them to answer one or more questions, and hold them indefinitely until they do, without probable cause or reasonable suspicion? This is a Yes or No answer.
Irrelevant!
Someone entering the country illegally should not be afforded the same protections and need to be returned to their country of origin immediately. They can submit their paperwork and wait their turn like the others trying to do thing proper.
Furthermore.... Previously deported people returning again are committing a felony!! The border patrol must be certain that these felons are not making it back into the country again.
If you are to have no checks at or near the border then why do we have one AT the border inside the US? This outer check is an extension of that initial checkpoint to catch those that sneak past.
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Wynder
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 07:32 pm |
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LEO 229 wrote: Irrelevant!
Someone entering the country illegally should not be afforded the same protections and need to be returned to their country of origin immediately. They can submit their paperwork and wait their turn like the others trying to do thing proper.
Not that I don't disagree with you, LEO -- but, playing Devil's Advocate here, how might you (if at all) reconcile that thought of process with this:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
The framers thought ALL men (not just American's) were created equal with unalienable rights. Are you saying that illegal aliens can be prosecuted by our laws, but shouldn't have the same legal protections as others?
(Again, just playing DA)
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LEO 229
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 08:43 pm |
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Sorry... if your breaking the law... your breaking the law. You have no "rights" to be here as many before you have properly applied and are waiting for their turn to come over.
"that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.""
We (people in general) are NOT "equal" and we never will be. This is a nice thought but you have to be honest.... We can all go in the pursuit of happiness and have liberty... But that does not mean you can get it by breaking the law. 
And having a checkpoint looking for illegal aliens does not stop those here legally from maintaining their liberty.
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Sa45auto
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 08:54 pm |
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Wynder wrote:
....."We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
The framers thought ALL men (not just American's) were created equal with unalienable rights. Are you saying that illegal aliens can be prosecuted by our laws, but shouldn't have the same legal protections as others?
(Again, just playing DA)
It is true that all men are created equal, with God Given rights, BUT the US Constitution, protects those rights ONLY for law abiding CITIZENS of The United States of America.
The people, whose rights are in question here are neither law abiding nor citizens, but illegal aliens.
LEO 229 was right, the question was irrelevant.Last edited on Sat Apr 19th, 2008 09:03 pm by Sa45auto
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mkl
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 08:57 pm |
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LEO 229 wrote:
Sorry... if your breaking the law..
....
And having a checkpoint looking for illegal aliens does not stop those here legally from maintaining their liberty.
First point, is IF you are breaking the law, there is no suspicion of law breaking when these check points occur. Sometimes 100 miles away from the border. So I have broken no law, I am 1-2 HOURS of driving from the boarder, and I have to be stopped and inspected.
Second point is, if these checkpoints don't stop me from maintaining my liberty, what would? Right now they simply stop each car and inspect everyone, how far could it go and you would still be fine with it?
Could they require each persons id?
Could they search everyone in the car?
What WOULD be too far in your eyes?
Personally, I think these checkpoints do NOTHING. They are typically permanent command posts from what I've seen. Why would illegal aliens go through them? I guess some could potentially if they didn't have good intel, but I bet the people sneaking them across the boarder would just tell them the location of these things. Some would by chance I guess, but it hardly seems worth it to staff these things.
It seems if you really wanted to catch illegals there would be better ways to do it. Like come to NOVA, or the Eastern shore of MD at the chicken plants or wherever there are a large amount of undocumented workers. To me, these checkpoints are more about control, and about getting people used to being subservient to the government and not question more and more intrusion.
If they were about stopping illegals, they would just fine each company that hired illegals a million dollars per violation, and end the entire charade.
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Wynder
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 08:59 pm |
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LEO 229 wrote: Sorry... if your breaking the law... your breaking the law. You have no "rights" to be here as many before you have properly applied and are waiting for their turn to come over.
"that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.""
We (people in general) are NOT "equal" and we never will be. This is a nice thought but you have to be honest.... We can all go in the pursuit of happiness and have liberty... But that does not mean you can get it by breaking the law.
And having a checkpoint looking for illegal aliens does not stop those here legally from maintaining their liberty.
No, no, absolutely you're right with regards to the legality of thier being there. My questions lie more along these lines:
1) Are our rights, e.g. Bill of Rights extended to everyone? (immigrant -- documented or not, visitor from abroad, etc).
2) I think the issue that folks have with stops are the reasoning behind the police actually detaining you in the first place. It's illegal for an officer to detain you anywhere in the United States without RAS; however, they can pull you over at random to check for X. I'm sure you can understand how that would peeve a few people.
As for "all men are created equal", that's not to say we all have the same things and same abilities, that's saying that you're not better than me and I'm not better than you, regardless of our financial or social situations, under the blind eyes of lady justice, we are judged equally under the law.
I suppose that was the crux of my thought that I was (ineptly) trying express. ;p
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mkl
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 09:04 pm |
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Sa45auto wrote:
[user=2744]
While it is true that all men are created equal, with God Given rights, BUT the US Constitution, protects those rights ONLY for law abiding CITIZENS of The United States of America.
The people, whose rights are in question here are neither law abiding nor citizens, but illegal aliens.
.
This is not true. The constitution spells out some rights for CITIZENS and some rights for PEOPLE.
See 14th amendment.
" nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Earlier in the amendment it spells out who "citizens are" then also includes any person within the jurisdiction in that next part.
The 4th amendment does not say citizens. It says people. The 5th amendment says no "person".
That is the whole purpose of a place like GITMO. We could not have that in the US, as each of those prisoners would get the full protection of the US Constitution.
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Sa45auto
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 09:37 pm |
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mkl wrote:
Sa45auto wrote:
[user=2744]
While it is true that all men are created equal, with God Given rights, BUT the US Constitution, protects those rights ONLY for law abiding CITIZENS of The United States of America.
The people, whose rights are in question here are neither law abiding nor citizens, but illegal aliens.
.
This is not true. The constitution spells out some rights for CITIZENS and some rights for PEOPLE.
See 14th amendment.
" nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Earlier in the amendment it spells out who "citizens are" then also includes any person within the jurisdiction in that next part.
The 4th amendment does not say citizens. It says people. The 5th amendment says no "person".
That is the whole purpose of a place like GITMO. We could not have that in the US, as each of those prisoners would get the full protection of the US Constitution.
Nice try, but you are wrong.
The Preamble defines the word people as used in the document,
"We the people of the United States of America, do ordain and establish this Constitution...."
The phrase "the people of" means legal residents, who have the right to frame a government. They were all citizens. We do have legak resident alians. They have been allowed many rights of citizens, Bug they cannot fram the government.
The Constitution does not protect the rights of illegals alians, legals yes, illegals NO!
It does not protect the rights of people in any other country of the world either.
IANALLast edited on Sat Apr 19th, 2008 09:44 pm by Sa45auto
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mkl
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 09:41 pm |
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Sa45auto wrote:
mkl wrote:
Sa45auto wrote:
[user=2744]
While it is true that all men are created equal, with God Given rights, BUT the US Constitution, protects those rights ONLY for law abiding CITIZENS of The United States of America.
The people, whose rights are in question here are neither law abiding nor citizens, but illegal aliens.
.
This is not true. The constitution spells out some rights for CITIZENS and some rights for PEOPLE.
See 14th amendment.
" nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Earlier in the amendment it spells out who "citizens are" then also includes any person within the jurisdiction in that next part.
The 4th amendment does not say citizens. It says people. The 5th amendment says no "person".
That is the whole purpose of a place like GITMO. We could not have that in the US, as each of those prisoners would get the full protection of the US Constitution.
Nice try, but you are wrong.
The Preamble defines the word people as used in the document,
"We the people of the United States of America, do ordain and establish this Constitution...."
The Constitution does not protect the rights of illegals alians, legals yes, illegals NO!
It does not protect the rights of people in any other country of the world either.
IANAL
You didn't even read the 14th amendment did you? You are clearly wrong here. I could post supreme court cases if that is what sways you (it doesn't me). Really, the easiest way to prove you are wrong is to...READ IT yourself.
" All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
How can you argue that the last line is not talking about non-citizens who are in America? Are you that blinded by your fears?
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LEO 229
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 09:43 pm |
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mkl wrote: First point, is IF you are breaking the law, there is no suspicion of law breaking when these check points occur. Sometimes 100 miles away from the border. So I have broken no law, I am 1-2 HOURS of driving from the boarder, and I have to be stopped and inspected.
Second point is, if these checkpoints don't stop me from maintaining my liberty, what would? Right now they simply stop each car and inspect everyone, how far could it go and you would still be fine with it?
Could they require each persons id?
Could they search everyone in the car?
What WOULD be too far in your eyes?
Personally, I think these checkpoints do NOTHING. They are typically permanent command posts from what I've seen. Why would illegal aliens go through them? I guess some could potentially if they didn't have good intel, but I bet the people sneaking them across the boarder would just tell them the location of these things. Some would by chance I guess, but it hardly seems worth it to staff these things.
It seems if you really wanted to catch illegals there would be better ways to do it. Like come to NOVA, or the Eastern shore of MD at the chicken plants or wherever there are a large amount of undocumented workers. To me, these checkpoints are more about control, and about getting people used to being subservient to the government and not question more and more intrusion.
If they were about stopping illegals, they would just fine each company that hired illegals a million dollars per violation, and end the entire charade.
Actually they do work just not in they way you expect.
I do not agree with placing CPs all over the place but there are locations where they can help force target vehicles to a desired direction so they can be caught not knowing a covert trap has been set. A checkpoint can be easily bypassed and they have to allow that. You can turn off and go in another direction. Do a U-Turn if you like.
This is the vehicle that will draw interest and be lawfully stopped.
I know how check points work and it has nothing to do with making the people subservient. There is a mission to be completed and in this case... curbing the flow of illegals and drugs. It is a very small part and some will still get past.
But they are doing something.... and not "just letting it happen."
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LEO 229
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 09:52 pm |
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Wynder wrote: No, no, absolutely you're right with regards to the legality of thier being there. My questions lie more along these lines:
1) Are our rights, e.g. Bill of Rights extended to everyone? (immigrant -- documented or not, visitor from abroad, etc).
2) I think the issue that folks have with stops are the reasoning behind the police actually detaining you in the first place. It's illegal for an officer to detain you anywhere in the United States without RAS; however, they can pull you over at random to check for X. I'm sure you can understand how that would peeve a few people.
As for "all men are created equal", that's not to say we all have the same things and same abilities, that's saying that you're not better than me and I'm not better than you, regardless of our financial or social situations, under the blind eyes of lady justice, we are judged equally under the law.
I suppose that was the crux of my thought that I was (ineptly) trying express. ;p
Oh. I would agree.... to just be stopped and detained would suck.
But I watched the video and the patrol was nonchalant about it. They did not detain anyone until they had something to go off of.
In this case... one guy with a smart mouth.  Well, maybe not that smart. He was begging to get pulled over and boasted about getting paid. At that point he was creating RS to pull them over. So many go past and just say "Yes.. I am an American!!" But not this guy. He creates a scene and maybe it was because he did have something to hide and used this to hide his nervous behavior that would give him away.
I am aware that people who work the borders to Canada and Mexico are trained to pick up on cues to indicate something is not right.
When I came back from Mexico the guy looked at my VA license and my face about 20 times like he did not believe it was me. The picture might as well have been taken a day prior. I did not appreciate his making me wait to be cleared but I knew what he was doing and did not play into his "game."
He was waiting for me to do something to give myself away and maybe indicate I picked up a few of those little blue pills without a prescription. 
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