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oprahrider
Member
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Posted: Sat Mar 15th, 2008 12:46 am |
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Hello everyone, I'm new here but hardly new to the rights and responsibilities the 2nd Amendment provides me. So with that said what do you think of this plan.....
We compose a certified letter to virtually every sitting police chief in the state of California explaining in detail what our rights are and our intent to exercise these rights as part of our daily life. We further site chapter and verse the laws (that they should know, but probably don't) and put them on notice that we expect their officers to be properly informed of a citizens right to OC and how they should properly interact with those citizens who do chose to exercise those rights. We will not except any plea of ignorance of the law should their officers cross the line in any confrontations. And WILL file a lawsuit if lack of officer training causes any delays or improper handling of the interaction between them and us.
If I'm not mistaken the best defense is a good offense! No more walking on eggshells!
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CA_Libertarian
State Researcher
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Posted: Sat Mar 15th, 2008 09:30 am |
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Sounds great! However, unless we establish a defense fund and have a good lawyer on retainer, this would be nothing more than idle chatter. The only way we will get their attention is by winning that first case. They take notice when something will take money out of the coffers.
So far, there is no precedent for lawful open carry. Most our case law to date has surrounded otherwise unsavory persons doing unlawful things. There is a lot of ground to cover in the realm of judicial interpretation. Unfortunately for us the deck is stacked in favor of the LEOs. Even more unfortunate is the need for lots of money to start paving that road.
This is one reason I have been trying to get involved with the Madison Society. Recently they mounted a defense for 3 locals who were charged with assault weapon violations. Fortunately, the charges were dropped once the DA realized it wasn't going to be a cake walk. Unfortunately, we missed a great opportunity to establish some case law.
My hope was that the Madison Society could be a support network for my open carry efforts. Currently I refuse to attend their meetings due to location. The monthly meetings are in the Modesto Police Department; a place where I can't lawfully be armed. There's irony for ya...
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Doug Huffman
State Researcher
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Posted: Sat Mar 15th, 2008 12:43 pm |
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Turlock, what a nice town. I considered attending Turlock State in its second year of existence and would have but for the lack of housing, so I went to San Jose State instead.
And what good ideas from Turlock!
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ConditionThree
Activist Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 16th, 2008 01:39 am |
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oprahrider wrote: Hello everyone, I'm new here but hardly new to the rights and responsibilities the 2nd Amendment provides me. So with that said what do you think of this plan.....
We compose a certified letter to virtually every sitting police chief in the state of California explaining in detail what our rights are and our intent to exercise these rights as part of our daily life. We further site chapter and verse the laws (that they should know, but probably don't) and put them on notice that we expect their officers to be properly informed of a citizens right to OC and how they should properly interact with those citizens who do chose to exercise those rights. We will not except any plea of ignorance of the law should their officers cross the line in any confrontations. And WILL file a lawsuit if lack of officer training causes any delays or improper handling of the interaction between them and us.
If I'm not mistaken the best defense is a good offense! No more walking on eggshells!
There are a couple of reasons why I can't wholly support this plan.
1) Numbers- right now we have about 5 or 6 people statewide that are willing to put it on the line with individual exposed carry. None of these people do this everyday. So a letter from a yet-to-be-formed organization warning law enforcement of our intent is something of a tempest in a teapot, or a 'rubber sword' to turn a phrase. The idea of assembling an Californian organization ALA the VDCL has already been floated and until we can draw more participants, it will not nearly be as effectual.
2) Infrastructure- As CA Libertarian has pointed out, there is no legal defense fund, no secured counsel, and this doesn't come without numbers as indicated above.
3) LEO Relations- Police chiefs and Sheriffs, despite being public servants, are not generally receptive to being told what the law says and how it should be applied. Until a group can be formed and counsel can be secured, the best contact in my opinion, will be directly with the officers and deputies who respond to any calls reporting 'man with a gun'. These are the people that will have first hand experience with those exercising their 2A prerogative, not the authoritarian bureaucrat.
You see, the problem isn't that law enforcement confrontations are completely untenable- the problem is that most everyone imagines that they would be, in the event that a person is apprehended while open carrying. The preconception is that police would shoot or felony prone someone engaged in such carry prevents its exercise. This is where the 'battle' is right now- in the minds of gun owners, not in that of police or the general public.
Responding police have already demonstrated that they can be cool about it and the majority of the general public a) doesn't take notice, b) assumes that it is legal or 'authorized', or c) does not care. Only a fraction of the population would be surprised or startled by someone carrying a holstered sidearm- ironically, some of these people are gun owners.
So, if we want to get real traction with this form of activism, we need to appeal to gun owners, not law enforcement. (That comes later.)
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Lonnie Wilson
State Researcher
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Posted: Sun Mar 16th, 2008 07:39 am |
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I don't agree about educating the individual officers, the education must come from above their pay grade, not from a citizen on the street. California at the moment is at the state that Washington was three years ago, if not worst off. No one is suggesting that you send a letter "demanding" that they change their policies.
To be perfectly honest, a letter in terms of "Hey, btw, we don't want issues, but your officers may expose you to legal liabilities due to the lack of knowledge of the law at hand" usually actually works. It's no threat, just a suggestion. All you need is just one police agency to issue a bulletin, and you can run with it to the other agencies, just like in Washington.
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CA_Libertarian
State Researcher
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Posted: Sun Mar 16th, 2008 08:18 am |
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Lonnie Wilson wrote: ...a letter in terms of "Hey, btw, we don't want issues, but your officers may expose you to legal liabilities due to the lack of knowledge of the law at hand" usually actually works. It's no threat, just a suggestion. All you need is just one police agency to issue a bulletin, and you can run with it to the other agencies, just like in Washington.
This is pretty much what I did, only verbally. On the pretense of inquiring about gun laws, I was able to notify my local Badges'N'Guns, Inc that I intended to excercise lawful carrying of a firearm. My conversations with said agencies were pleasant and informative, though I was warned I would probably be treated by the LEOs as a dangerous person until proven otherwise.
The bottom line, as C3 pointed out is that the lack of interest in open carry in CA is the real problem. Compounding this is that the few of us trying to do something about it are spread over the length of the state, about 550 miles.
So, it is my opinion that before we try to educate the authorities, we need to focus on gathering people who are willing to fight for their rights. Maybe we should consider ways to make this happen.
Last edited on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 08:19 am by CA_Libertarian
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ConditionThree
Activist Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 16th, 2008 11:15 am |
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Lonnie Wilson wrote: I don't agree about educating the individual officers, the education must come from above their pay grade, not from a citizen on the street. California at the moment is at the state that Washington was three years ago, if not worst off. No one is suggesting that you send a letter "demanding" that they change their policies.
To be perfectly honest, a letter in terms of "Hey, btw, we don't want issues, but your officers may expose you to legal liabilities due to the lack of knowledge of the law at hand" usually actually works. It's no threat, just a suggestion. All you need is just one police agency to issue a bulletin, and you can run with it to the other agencies, just like in Washington.
Let me clarify- Im not saying we should 'educate' individual police officers- If anyone should be educated it should be California gunowners. As far as a letter is concerned, I could take it or leave it. Under the circumstances, I do not really care whether or not local law enforcement does anything to protect themselves from possible or probable litigation relating to bad treatment of lawful open carriers.Last edited on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 11:16 am by ConditionThree
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Prophet
Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 16th, 2008 07:13 pm |
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1) Numbers- right now we have about 5 or 6 people statewide that are willing to put it on the line with individual exposed carry.
And One pennsylvanian! 
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Placementvs.Calibur
Member
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 03:10 am |
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| You guys gotta-lot-a balls. I admire that. Keep up the good work. CA is a beautiful, rugged state where OCing is necessary. I was in Napa last year and was taken aback by the untamed wilderness. I often thought how great it would've been to explore the mountains (with a side arm). PIECE!
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gravedigger
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jul 20th, 2008 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 57 |
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Offline
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 06:45 am |
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Through my years of observing police response to situations, it seems that when they outnumber the object of their ire, they are aggressive and sometimes not quite professional. Conversely, when they are exhaustively overwhelmed by the numbers of people who are behaving in a way they do not embrace, they just sort of stand around and look menacing, but do little or nothing to actually dilute the situation because they know that a large group of people making a political statement is one thing, while an angry mob is quite another.
Think about the riots that occur after sports events, where the inner city youth trash stores, toss cans through plate glass windows and set cars on fire when their team loses. Do you see police officers storming into the fray with their batons swinging? NOPE! They just observe, videotape and wait for the crowd to run out of steam. THEN they wander in among the bleeding rioters and arrest those who are the greatest troublemakers.
What do the police do when they find one naked man with a beer in his hand? What do they do when 7,500 naked people march down Main Street in a demonstration for gay rights or free expression or to protest wearing furs ... or whatever!? The police stand around and observe,but do nothing unless individual members of the group are particularly unruly or troublesome.
If a single day, or a WEEK (even better!) was selected, and all law enforcement was notified via newspapers, TV News, letters and phone calls etc., that during this time period, lawful gun owners all over California WILL be OC according to the law, with a holstered UNLOADED registered legally purchased and legally owned weapon and either speed loaders or magazines on the belt but NOT attached to the weapon, and those OC citizens intend to spend the week meeting people, shaking hands, passing out flyers such as those that have been so skillfully prepared here by other members, I am positive that except for where some dumb inbred drunken fool decides to brandish his weapon or do something equally stupid, the police will only stand and quietly observe the proceedings.
At the END of that week, efforts would be made by the participants to write letters to the newspaper, post you-tube videos, get TV interviews and so forth, to REMIND the California gun-grabbing population that even though a much greater percentage of the population was armed during the previous week, nothing happened. There were no wild shooting sprees, no psychos walking into a mall, no school shootings, no drive-bys ... Even IF something like that occurs, chances are that it would have occurred anyway, and, as in the case of the female security officer who stopped that psycho in a church by popping his melon, there just might be an armed citizen nearby to stop the CRIMINAL before he has a chance to do real damage.
So, what think ye?
Last edited on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 06:47 am by gravedigger
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MrSigmaDot40
Member
| Joined: | Tue Aug 5th, 2008 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 39 |
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Offline
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 01:10 pm |
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| Whatever the plan is, I'm in the bay area and i'm ready to go.
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Mechanic
Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 07:41 pm |
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ConditionThree wrote: 3) LEO Relations- Police chiefs and Sheriffs, despite being public servants, are not generally receptive to being told what the law says and how it should be applied. Until a group can be formed and counsel can be secured, the best contact in my opinion, will be directly with the officers and deputies who respond to any calls reporting 'man with a gun'. These are the people that will have first hand experience with those exercising their 2A prerogative, not the authoritarian bureaucrat.
Let's also keep in mind that Chiefs and Sherrifs maintain their positions through political affiliations. They maintain their political affiliations by controlling the huge voting blocks and fundraising capabilities of their respective unions. If you scare them through massive armed protest, no matter how legal or just, they may seek assistance from their political cronies to put an end to their fear. The easiest way for a politician to make the Sherriff of LA County happy (for example) is to ban all carry, everywhere.
A lot of people don't like this, me included, but this makes preemptive legal activism almost a prerequisite to any mass demonstratin.
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D*
Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 11:30 pm |
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I'm inclined to think that you would get a lot of people who are on the line about open carry to actually do so in a group setting. People tend to want to follow instead of lead. The comment was made that there are only a handfull out there actually OC'ing and that we need more people to do it. Perhaps what we need is regular monthly meets where everyone who is timid can show up and OC together, thus giving them that feeling of security they seem to need.
Maybe a poll about who OC's alone vs. who would OC in a group meeting would be helpful?
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Mechanic
Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 15th, 2008 04:54 pm |
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I'm a fan of the group events.
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Theseus
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 19th, 2008 10:41 pm |
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I too would be willing to do group meets. I think for many reasons, but mostly working up the support for those whom are too scared to do so in the first place!
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Robin47
Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 03:41 am |
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HI CA_Libertairian,you said:
So, it is my opinion that before we try to educate the authorities, we need to focus on gathering people who are willing to fight for their rights. Maybe we should consider ways to make this happen.
I agree totally ! Here is a way in our own areas to get the other gun owner
and others who might want to OC Interseted, Theres a way here at :
http://www.meetup.com
All one would have to do is : Work out a statement to bring them in.
LIKE ! " Local gun owners united". Then state the purpose we are meeting for
LIKE: Open carring of fire arms legalities, And your right to carry. ETC !
We could teach with the pamphlets, and pass them out and then have get
togethers like BBQ's and meetings in the local parks ETC !
When the LEOs come by then they can check us out and also learn.
It can be county wide, how about that ? Robin47
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CA_Libertarian
State Researcher
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 06:06 am |
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Holy necro thread Batman!
Robin; sounds good, set one up and I'll try to make it out. I'll bring a stack of pamphlets to hand out.
Just make sure the park your BBQ is going to be in isn't a prohibited area (such as the park gun prohibition in Turlock). While these local ordinances are probably beatable on grounds of state preemption, it could be an expensive battle to win.
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Robin47
Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 06:30 am |
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Yeah I just thought about that, It is public but its got a playground on it to.
However the http://www.meetup.com Is nation wide. All of us could arange one in our own area, but yes It would be nice to meet you to, I do get to Reno now and then.
On that website, theres anything from dog owners to knitting meets, a whole list of things, but I never seen one on OC'ing yet. I do think I'll try to put one together, I'll keep you all Informed on it !
Thanks buddy ! Robin47
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Robin47
Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 09:52 pm |
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Well CA_ Libertarian,
I did it, Im waiting now for a responce from the http://www.meetup.com
And we will see what happens now.
They didn't have a topic on their charts for this kind of group.
Hummm I wonder why ? Anyway we truly are taking to them now.
I'll keep you all Informed as it happens or doesn't.
I can't see anything wrong with educating people on the laws, and their rights.
I have a vision, of seeing 30 people from around the county, having a BBQ
and talking about their rights. All packing "UNLOADED" and shareing the written laws
with the LEO's who might come to "Investgate this new activity" in the local park.
We have 4 parks in this town, one is partly unincorperated on the edge of town.
I will Incourage all to come to this website and learn all they can.
Anyway keeping you all Informed on it ! LOL ! Robin47
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avdrummerboy
Member
| Joined: | Tue Aug 26th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 13 |
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Offline
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Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 06:04 pm |
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| I see this all over in gun rights forums. One person has an idea and then ten more shoot it down. The letter yeah for legal troubles makes sense why to be against it, however it can't hurt to write one anyway. However, as was said most people feel better in groups (as followers) and even these meets are being shot down, something needs to be done.
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