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centsi
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 12:33 am |
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So there I was at the Walgreens at the south end of Castle Rock today when I am approached by the store manager about my gun. The encounter went something like this:
Manager: "Excuse me sir"
Me: "Yes"
Manger: "Do you have a permit for that or are you a cop"
Me: "No, I'm not a cop and there is no permit to openly carry a firearm"
Manger: "Well, I just don't see many people like that"
Me: "I understand. It's perfectly legal in Colorado and 44 other states, but I'm on your property and I'll leave if you ask me to."
Manger: "I'll be right back"
So I'm browsing for 5 or 10 more minutes until I get into line. While in line I see two Castle Rock Police Officers coming in, and I hand my stuff over to my wife and go to greet them.
Me: "Hello Officers"
Officers: "Hello, can we please step outside."
So we step outside
Officers: "Are you a police officer?"
Me: "No, I'm a citizen"
Officer 1: "Can I see some identification?"
Me: "Do you have reason to suspect that I have or am about to commit a crime?"
Officer 1: "No, but this is a small town and if you're carrying a gun we're going to contact you"
Me: "I understand that, but if you don't have a reasonable suspicion that I've done something wrong, you have no right to ask me for ID. Am I being detained?"
Officer 2: "No, we're just contacting you."
Me: "With all due respect, I do not have to provide you ID for engaging in a perfectly legal activity. If you are saying that I'm doing something illegal carrying a gun, tell me what part of CRS 18-12 I am violating"
Officer 2: "18-12 doesn't apply to convicted felons, so we're IDing you to make sure you're not a felon"
Me: "Do you have reason to believe that I'm a convicted felon"
Officer 1: "No, but I have the right to ask you for identification. The Supreme Court says I do"
Me: "What ruling is that? There is no firearms exception to Terry"
Officer 1: "I have the right to ask you for ID and to arrest you if you refuse. I also have the right to disarm you."
Me: "If you feel the need to disarm me, go ahead"
Officer 1: "Please remove your weapon"
Me: "With all due respect, I am not going to unholster my weapon. If you want to disarm me, you'll need to do it"
The officer procedes to remove my gun while I put my hands up. He looks at the gun (Ultra Compact 1911) as if he is going to decock it, but instead places it under is arm (pointing at everyone coming into the store I might add). Now I realize that I have a choice to make. I can tell that the two officers are not seing eye to eye at this point. Officer 1, who turns out to be a corporal, thinks he can arrest me even though he can't think of where he gets the authority from. Officer 2 seems less sure and is more sypathetic to me, but doesn't (and can't) overrule his superior. Since I am with my wife and child, I decide to hand him my ID rather than be arrested. During the clearing process I am speaking with Officer 2 who wants to know all about my gun and pretty cool. He is also telling me he knows that I'm legal under his breath.
I continue to argue with them after I an cleared and I get my weapon back. I continue to press them on where they get the authority to arrest me for not providing my information, to which they eventually say "We're not lawyers.". I got their info and the name of their Sargent. I have since placed some calls and I am waiting to hear back.
Had I been alone, I certainly would have continuted to refuse and I may have been arrested. I could use the money anyway. The campaign to educate continues....
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RockyMtnScotsman
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 02:06 am |
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Sounds to me like you were NOT "free to leave" and therefore were being detained. You should speak with your lawyer and the CR Police Chief in that order.
My understanding of the CRS regarding ID is that you have to identify yourself when asked to do so "my name is mr. frank centsi" but you do not have to provide physical identification.
Last edited on Sat Jan 31st, 2009 02:09 am by RockyMtnScotsman
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centsi
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 05:17 am |
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After consulting with others, I'm certain that my civil and constitutional rights were violated under both the US and Colorado constitutions. I was illegally detained, my property was illegally seized, and I was illegally disarmed. I haven't decided a course of action yet.
RockyMtnScotsman: I have been advised that absent a reasonable suspicion, I am not required to provide ANY information. Thanks for your support.
Last edited on Sat Jan 31st, 2009 05:20 am by centsi
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 05:32 am |
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centsi wrote: After consulting with others, I'm certain that my civil and constitutional rights were violated under both the US and Colorado constitutions. I was illegally detained, my property was illegally seized, and I was illegally disarmed. I haven't decided a course of action yet.
RockyMtnScotsman: I have been advised that absent a reasonable suspicion, I am not required to provide ANY information. Thanks for your support.
Yeah, I don;t think Co is a stop and ID state, is it? You shuold file a civil action if you can find a lawyer willing to take it on contingency.Last edited on Sat Jan 31st, 2009 05:33 am by Mike
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RockyMtnScotsman
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 06:37 am |
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here's the relevant section on stop and ID for Colorado, but legally OCing does not constitute "reasonable suspicion"
http://www.dvmen.org/dv-174.htm#16-3-103
Last edited on Sat Jan 31st, 2009 06:38 am by RockyMtnScotsman
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centsi
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 11:33 am |
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RockyMtnScotsman wrote: here's the relevant section on stop and ID for Colorado, but legally OCing does not constitute "reasonable suspicion"
http://www.dvmen.org/dv-174.htm#16-3-103
I asked the officers point blank if they had a reasonable suspicion that they said they did not.
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Doug Huffman
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 12:26 pm |
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A DVR is worth its weight in gold literally and figuratively. I hope the FOIA requests are flying like a blizzard.
Last edited on Sat Jan 31st, 2009 12:27 pm by Doug Huffman
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marshaul
Activist Member
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 12:35 pm |
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centsi wrote:
...my property was illegally seized, and I was illegally disarmed..
Sounds to me like this much at least you consented to.
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centsi
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 03:23 pm |
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marshaul wrote: centsi wrote:
...my property was illegally seized, and I was illegally disarmed..
Sounds to me like this much at least you consented to.
I probably worded it a little differently than I should have. I told him that if he decided he was going to disarm me, he would have to do it. My driver's license was also seized.
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centsi
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 03:32 pm |
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I sat down with the Sergeant in charge of the officers today and hand delivered my complaint. His demeanor was even worse than the officers'. He refused to discuss what authority was used to detain me, and basically took the opportunity to lecture me about how stupid it is to openly carry a gun. He stated that by openly carrying my firearms I was acting unreasonably and that I may have been "interfering in a government operation". He essentially threatened me that if I continued to carry this way, they would continue to contact me and demand my identification under threat of arrest. I figured the responses would get better as I moved up the chain of command instead of worse. If I don't get anywhere with the Chief, I'll have try and find someone to take this case. Anyone know an attorney who'd be wiling to look at this without a retainer?
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RockyMtnScotsman
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 04:14 pm |
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There's a list of attorneys who specialize in firearms law on the RMGO site.
Unfortunately I'm not sure you're going to find a lawyer who will take it on contingency. The cops know this too and that's why the bad ones will push the envelope as far as they can.
The sergeant clearly does NOT know Colorado law. As such HE is a danger to the community he is paid to serve.
We need an OC Front Range Meet-n-Greet in Castle Rock.... who's bringing the camcorder?
Last edited on Sat Jan 31st, 2009 04:19 pm by RockyMtnScotsman
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 04:52 pm |
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centsi wrote: He stated that by openly carrying my firearms I was acting unreasonably and that I may have been "interfering in a government operation". He essentially threatened me that if I continued to carry this way, they would continue to contact me and demand my identification under threat of arrest.
Hmm, sounds like a good reason to NOT carry any ID (sterile carry) - just leave it at home and refuse to provide any. Arrested? For following the law? Hmm. Then I think you would have a very clear claim for damages.
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RockyMtnScotsman
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 05:01 pm |
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Mike wrote: centsi wrote: He stated that by openly carrying my firearms I was acting unreasonably and that I may have been "interfering in a government operation". He essentially threatened me that if I continued to carry this way, they would continue to contact me and demand my identification under threat of arrest.
Hmm, sounds like a good reason to NOT carry any ID (sterile carry) - just leave it at home and refuse to provide any. Arrested? For following the law? Hmm. Then I think you would have a very clear claim for damages.
Good point Mike. I was thinking the same thing but I didn't post it because now that there's a "history" of him being detained for OC would a repeat performance while sterile be received as provocation?
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codename_47
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Jun 16th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 330 |
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Offline
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 10:41 pm |
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Here's my .02:
You talk entirely way, way, way too much in this encounter and you don't have a solid enough grasp on your rights or are wary about using them.
No detention = consensual encounter = no 4th amendment violation. You have to MAKE THEM take you out of the store. You have to MAKE THEM demand your ID under the threat of arrest. Me personally, I'd just flat refuse to show them my ID, unless I was in a stop and ID state. You can't be afraid of being arrested, that's kinda the downside of exercising your rights, but certainly the start of a good lawsuit.
Can we step outside? No.
I need to see some ID. No.
Are you a police officer? I'd ask why they are asking or just stick with the familiar: no.
We are just contacting you. Well you are free to do so, just as I am free to end it right now.
If you know nothing else, just stop talking. What are they going to do? Arrest you for not talking?
Asking them about suspecting you of a crime was a good move. Upon hearing no, you should have spun on your heel and walked away. Even a Terry stop is out at that point.
Once they said you aren't being detained, you should have said "good day" and been on your way, period. Well, first of all, you never should have left the shop.
Here's the problem you have: You weren't detained. They asked you to step outside and you agreed.
Your driver's license wasn't seized, you willingly gave it to them.
The chief won't be of any help. You need to sue them, straight away, but again, you kinda hamstrung yourself in the case.
I'm not saying don't go for it, but you tossed away many portions of your rights.
Furthermore, do you have any of this one tape? If not, you have no evidence.
Here are all the things that you need to ever say to a cop in order:
1. Am I being detained? If no, say nothing and walk.
2. Do you suspect me of a crime? If no, say nothing and walk.
3. Am I free to go? The arrest test. If yes, say nothing and walk.
4. I want a lawyer.
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 11:06 pm |
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RockyMtnScotsman wrote: Hmm, sounds like a good reason to NOT carry any ID (sterile carry) - just leave it at home and refuse to provide any. Arrested? For following the law? Hmm. Then I think you would have a very clear claim for damages.
Good point Mike. I was thinking the same thing but I didn't post it because now that there's a "history" of him being detained for OC would a repeat performance while sterile be received as provocation?
What do you mean by "provocation" ? I have no idea how to answer this question.
It is not unlawful to go about your business openly carry a handgun without carrying any ID or permit in most states.
Now I don't know the poster of this thread, but lets assume he was (and will not be in the future) causing a public nuisance, loitering, appearing to be casing a store or staulking somebody, etc. and there is no reasonable suspicion for police to seize him. Then I don;' see how the previous unlawful seizure makes the next unlawful seizure less problematic. In fact it makes it look like a pattern of police misconduct.
I emailed the Chief of Police for Castle Rock and asked him to look into the matter as noted in this thread - hopefully the issue goes away.
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marshaul
Activist Member
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Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 11:11 pm |
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| The only "provoking" being done is by the police who refuse to follow the law. Sterile carry would be a reaction to this ridiculous behavior.
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entartet17
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Feb 1st, 2009 04:16 am |
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RockyMtnScotsman wrote: We need an OC Front Range Meet-n-Greet in Castle Rock.... who's bringing the camcorder?
I agree, Castle Rock may be an excellent place to have an OC Meet-n-Greet complete with plenty of voice recorders and a camcorder or two. Such a blatant violation of centsi's rights by the police is really detestable.
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centsi
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Sun Feb 1st, 2009 05:10 am |
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codename_47 wrote: Here's my .02:
You talk entirely way, way, way too much in this encounter and you don't have a solid enough grasp on your rights or are wary about using them.
No detention = consensual encounter = no 4th amendment violation. You have to MAKE THEM take you out of the store. You have to MAKE THEM demand your ID under the threat of arrest. Me personally, I'd just flat refuse to show them my ID, unless I was in a stop and ID state. You can't be afraid of being arrested, that's kinda the downside of exercising your rights, but certainly the start of a good lawsuit.
Can we step outside? No.
I need to see some ID. No.
Are you a police officer? I'd ask why they are asking or just stick with the familiar: no.
We are just contacting you. Well you are free to do so, just as I am free to end it right now.
If you know nothing else, just stop talking. What are they going to do? Arrest you for not talking?
Asking them about suspecting you of a crime was a good move. Upon hearing no, you should have spun on your heel and walked away. Even a Terry stop is out at that point.
Once they said you aren't being detained, you should have said "good day" and been on your way, period. Well, first of all, you never should have left the shop.
Here's the problem you have: You weren't detained. They asked you to step outside and you agreed.
Your driver's license wasn't seized, you willingly gave it to them.
The chief won't be of any help. You need to sue them, straight away, but again, you kinda hamstrung yourself in the case.
I'm not saying don't go for it, but you tossed away many portions of your rights.
Furthermore, do you have any of this one tape? If not, you have no evidence.
Here are all the things that you need to ever say to a cop in order:
1. Am I being detained? If no, say nothing and walk.
2. Do you suspect me of a crime? If no, say nothing and walk.
3. Am I free to go? The arrest test. If yes, say nothing and walk.
4. I want a lawyer.
I'm not sure what to say to your post. Leaving the store wasn't the "detainment" I am talking about. Once my property was illegally seized (my gun and my DL) an reasonable person would conclude that I was not free to leave the scene wholly intact. If I could not leave the scene with all of my property, I was being detained.
Furthermore, providing information under threat of arrest is not freely providing information just as giving a confession under threat is not a free confession.
I should have walked away once the officers said that I was not suspected in a crime, and that was my fault. I'll know more next time.
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centsi
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Sun Feb 1st, 2009 05:16 am |
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Mike wrote: RockyMtnScotsman wrote: Hmm, sounds like a good reason to NOT carry any ID (sterile carry) - just leave it at home and refuse to provide any. Arrested? For following the law? Hmm. Then I think you would have a very clear claim for damages.
Good point Mike. I was thinking the same thing but I didn't post it because now that there's a "history" of him being detained for OC would a repeat performance while sterile be received as provocation?
What do you mean by "provocation" ? I have no idea how to answer this question.
It is not unlawful to go about your business openly carry a handgun without carrying any ID or permit in most states.
Now I don't know the poster of this thread, but lets assume he was (and will not be in the future) causing a public nuisance, loitering, appearing to be casing a store or staulking somebody, etc. and there is no reasonable suspicion for police to seize him. Then I don;' see how the previous unlawful seizure makes the next unlawful seizure less problematic. In fact it makes it look like a pattern of police misconduct.
I emailed the Chief of Police for Castle Rock and asked him to look into the matter as noted in this thread - hopefully the issue goes away.
This was my first encounter with any LEO regarding open carry. I go about my business as any normal person would, ie grocery store, buying gas, going out to eat, etc, except that I happen to be OCing when I do it. I really appreciate the members who have contact the CRPD Chief about this. I am really not interested in bringing a suit against the Town, but after the way I was treated by the Sergeant, I am afraid I may be a target for harrassment in the future.
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codename_47
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Jun 16th, 2008 |
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Offline
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Posted: Sun Feb 1st, 2009 03:04 pm |
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Once my property was illegally seized (my gun and my DL) an reasonable person would conclude that I was not free to leave the scene wholly intact.
Reading your post, I think you are going to have a hard time claiming that your ID was illegally seized. If you don't have a digital recorder, the police report is going to say that you had a consensual encounter and you voluntarily gave them your ID.
That's like agreeing to a search then complaining that it is taking too long.
You never should have left the store. You never should have said anything to them. You never should have given them your ID.
If you are OCing, walking down the street and the cops just grab you and take your gun for "officer safety" or whatever BS, you've got a mighty fine lawsuit, which you apparently aren't interested in pursuing anyway.
As soon as you have this encounter and start talking to them, then they arguably have a reason to disarm you.
Furthermore, providing information under threat of arrest is not freely providing information just as giving a confession under threat is not a free confession.
There wasn't a threat of arrest, they were just quoting the law. That's what their report is going to say, or it will probably say nothing at all regarding it. If you don't have this on tape, you have nothing. You have to have the fortitude to resist this sort of crap. You can't just demand ID to determine if someone is a felon or not. You need to know that.
As soon as they said that they didn't suspect you of a crime, you should have called their bluff. They had nothing, but you gave in. Furthermore, you aren't required to show ID, you are required to give your name and address. That is if and only if they suspect you of a crime. You need to know this stuff cold.
You think you may be subjected to police harassment, yet you aren't willing to sue? Good grief, why not? Do you think they are just going to willingly stop messing with you?
Last edited on Sun Feb 1st, 2009 03:06 pm by codename_47
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