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TomTom
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Posted: Sat Apr 25th, 2009 08:55 pm |
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If you are that afraid, then you need to find another job. People who have CC permits are law abiding citzens, the key word is "Citzen"
I am an LEO in FL. I'll be the first to tell you that just becuase you have a CWP does not make you law abiding or a good guy. Several years ago I was shot at by a person with a CWP, he was neither law abiding or a good guy. I also had a .38 snubby pressed into my vest by a person with a valid CWP, he lost by the way.
The mere fact that you have a CWP does not mean anything to me or to most cops I know. If you have it and act like an a**hole then you will probably be treated as such. If your cool about it then in most cases your gonna go on your way, probably without a ticket or whatever else.
And when I go to work at night I am scared. But the day I'm no longer scared then that will probably be the day I get killed. Fear keeps you alive, if your not scared then your not looking for the next encounter that is gonna come up. LEO or not, if your carrying a gun you better be looking for whats gonna happen. If your looking, then your scared it's coming and your gonna be prepared for it. If your not, your an idiot.
Last edited on Sat Apr 25th, 2009 09:14 pm by TomTom
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Glock23-4-Me
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| Joined: | Thu Feb 12th, 2009 |
| Location: | Tampa, Florida USA |
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Posted: Sat Apr 25th, 2009 09:47 pm |
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TomTom wrote:
I am an LEO in FL. I'll be the first to tell you that just becuase you have a CWP does not make you law abiding or a good guy. Several years ago I was shot at by a person with a CWP, he was neither law abiding or a good guy. I also had a .38 snubby pressed into my vest by a person with a valid CWP, he lost by the way.
The mere fact that you have a CWP does not mean anything to me or to most cops I know. If you have it and act like an a**hole then you will probably be treated as such. If your cool about it then in most cases your gonna go on your way, probably without a ticket or whatever else.
And when I go to work at night I am scared. But the day I'm no longer scared then that will probably be the day I get killed. Fear keeps you alive, if your not scared then your not looking for the next encounter that is gonna come up. LEO or not, if your carrying a gun you better be looking for whats gonna happen. If your looking, then your scared it's coming and your gonna be prepared for it. If your not, your an idiot.
Thank you for posting. I am sorry about the incident you had. I am glad things worked out for you. Although I always would suggest you stay on your toes, I hope that the next CWFL holder you run across, you do not automatically treat like a criminal because of your past encounters. Stay safe out their and thank you for your service to the community. I realize it is normally a thankless job.
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SANDCREEK
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Apr 25th, 2009 09:51 pm |
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| "Extremism ALWAYS - brings about its own destruction" - Apparently more than the weather is extreme in Florida. I see a career change ahead for any LEO carrying a spare adrenal gland attached to the service belt . FEAR spawns ANGER. ANGER produces OVER-REACTION. OVER-REACTION results in UNJUSTIFIABLE action determinations. Last edited on Sat Apr 25th, 2009 10:37 pm by SANDCREEK
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TomTom
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Posted: Sat Apr 25th, 2009 10:08 pm |
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Thank you for posting. I am sorry about the incident you had. I am glad things worked out for you. Although I always would suggest you stay on your toes, I hope that the next CWFL holder you run across, you do not automatically treat like a criminal because of your past encounters. Stay safe out their and thank you for your service to the community. I realize it is normally a thankless job.
I don't treat anyone like a criminal until I know they are such. But I do not trust anyone that I do not know. It's really pretty simple, I treat everyone the same until they do something that makes that change. I'm not a young buck rookie, Ive been around the block a few times and I know the game fairly well.
I really don't care if someone tells me they have a CWP and are carrying. They don't have to tell me and if I don't know, well then I don't know. I also assume that if they are carrying, don't tell me and I find it/see it then they understand that things could end badly.
Something I was taught a long time ago and I have always tried to keep in mind. Your gun is only your gun as long as you have it. Once it is taken away, it will kill you as quick as anyone else.
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fridaddy
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Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 05:10 am |
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I don't mean this to criticize you personally, and I understand the difficulty of your job.
Please remember I am a citizen not a subject. The former has the RIGHT to be armed, the latter does not. Secondly, by law here in FL, it is none of your business if I am armed. I agree you should assume everyone is, but the failure to tell you is no indication of my status as good or bad, merely a matter of privacy and personal choice.
To me this is nothing but a further indication of the benefits of open carry, then you know who is armed.
In the Heller opinion, Scalia made a great point. Concealed carry is in no way protected by the constitution, it was considered a questionable practice at the time. It is merely allowed by legislative grace. Unfortunately FL does not give me the option. As to open carry the Court left that decision for another day.
Last edited on Sun Apr 26th, 2009 05:13 am by fridaddy
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 05:30 am |
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TomTom wrote:
I also assume that if they are carrying, don't tell me and I find it/see it then they understand that things could end badly.
For whom? You can draw no inference from the mere presence of a citizen's gun, nor can you treat a citizen poorly simply because of the possession such legal property.
A citizen need not account to the government in the conduct of his affairs.
Fridaddy is right on concerning the benefits of open carry.
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TomTom
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Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 10:49 am |
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fridaddy wrote: I don't mean this to criticize you personally, and I understand the difficulty of your job.
Please remember I am a citizen not a subject. The former has the RIGHT to be armed, the latter does not. Secondly, by law here in FL, it is none of your business if I am armed. I agree you should assume everyone is, but the failure to tell you is no indication of my status as good or bad, merely a matter of privacy and personal choice.
To me this is nothing but a further indication of the benefits of open carry, then you know who is armed.
In the Heller opinion, Scalia made a great point. Concealed carry is in no way protected by the constitution, it was considered a questionable practice at the time. It is merely allowed by legislative grace. Unfortunately FL does not give me the option. As to open carry the Court left that decision for another day.
Your are 100% correct, it is none of my buisness if you are armed or not. What it comes down to is the preceived threat. If I stop someone, tell them to exit their vehicle and their gun is sticking out of their shirt by accident, my point of view is a surprise gun, which for me generally equals bad guy. That is gonna be met with my gun and some yelling. Once I can determine the person is compliant with my commands then guns get holstered, CWP checked and we move on with whatever we were doing. Now, I've beat the balls off my fair share of scumbags but I'm not gonna drag them to the ground and put a knee in their neck. It's probably gonna be more of create some distance and move to cover, unless I'm right up on them and then things may be a little different.
As far as open carry, I like the idea for myself. But it's not gonna change anything with officer safety. Scumbags are still gonna conceal and that won't change.
Last edited on Sun Apr 26th, 2009 11:14 am by TomTom
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TomTom
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Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 11:11 am |
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smoking357 wrote: TomTom wrote:
I also assume that if they are carrying, don't tell me and I find it/see it then they understand that things could end badly.
For whom? You can draw no inference from the mere presence of a citizen's gun, nor can you treat a citizen poorly simply because of the possession such legal property.
A citizen need not account to the government in the conduct of his affairs.
Fridaddy is right on concerning the benefits of open carry.
Well it's not gonna end badly for me. As I explained in the above post. Guns being pointed some yelling of commands, etc. is what will happen. If the commands are ignored but the person is just simply being defiant and not raising the level of threat, i.e. reaching for the gun, then some additional units will arrive and that person will be disarmed and taken to jail. If the person raises the level of threat to a deadly force issue then, well I'm sure you can figure that part out.
A gun may be legal but it is still a deadly weapon. Until I can prove otherwise, I have to assume that a gun is there to harm me or somebody else. Being able to show that there is no intent to cause harm can be something as simple as "hey there is gun in the glove box next to my weed" (it happened to me), "here is my DL and CWP" or the gun is holstered in plain view and no movement towards it has been made. It's when you ask for the insurance card and the guy opens the glove box where his gun is. He then reaches in not thinking that his insurance is under his gun (also happened to me). What would your inference be of that situation?
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 02:19 pm |
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TomTom wrote: Well it's not gonna end badly for me. As I explained in the above post. Guns being pointed some yelling of commands, etc. is what will happen. If the commands are ignored but the person is just simply being defiant and not raising the level of threat, i.e. reaching for the gun, then some additional units will arrive and that person will be disarmed and taken to jail. If the person raises the level of threat to a deadly force issue then, well I'm sure you can figure that part out.
A gun may be legal but it is still a deadly weapon. Until I can prove otherwise, I have to assume that a gun is there to harm me or somebody else. Being able to show that there is no intent to cause harm can be something as simple as "hey there is gun in the glove box next to my weed" (it happened to me), "here is my DL and CWP" or the gun is holstered in plain view and no movement towards it has been made. It's when you ask for the insurance card and the guy opens the glove box where his gun is. He then reaches in not thinking that his insurance is under his gun (also happened to me). What would your inference be of that situation?
If you pull a gun on someone who does not have one pointed at you, that's felony assault and a massive violation of civil rights. Given that America's police frequently engage in outright executions, don't be surprised if the occasional citizen believes that an officer's drawn gun means that the citizen is at his end and has but one chance to stay alive, or might as well go out with a fight.
As a servant, your duty is to presume that the citizen is about his lawful travels and does not deserve to be threatened with murder for merely possessing lawful property.
Don't let your hand touch the heel of your gun, and we'll all get along, just fine.
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SANDCREEK
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 07:22 pm |
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Motor vehicle focused law enforcement is the cutting edge of modern crime fighting, but it is also the line-in-the-sand standing between a police state, and a free society.
We are a nation of laws-the "gold standards" of which are our State and U.S. constitutions. A cliche perhaps - but worth remembering that embracing the "hearts & minds" of the people is essential to any hope of ever winning the fight against crime.
When the priority in a fight becomes the fight - first the objective has been lost - and then the fight will be lost.
In February my granddaughter was hasseled by 2 Ohio Highway Patrol officers while traveling to New York. This incident occurred near Wooster OH. The contacting officer was alerted by the "profile" of my granddaughter (" hispanic") who was driving and her passenger ( "Puerto Rican" - with a head bandana).
That " profile" WAS the PC for pulling her over . She was informed by the officer that " her tires had driven over the solid white line " ( Mercy, mercy, mercy !)upon exiting the highway at a convenience store.
Before the traffic stop was over - she had been intimidated into consenting to a search of the vehicle in which her suitcases were searched,the car speakers removed and damaged in the process. The officers looked under the hood, and negligently left an air intake connection loose - which later resulted in the car stalling in traffic in the middle of the highway. This was verified by a mechanic later - down the road. My granddaughter learned alot about law enforcement in the "Land of the Free" that day.
The Wooster Ohio HP will soon be "updated" concerning civil rights by the DOJ.
This sort of travesty occurs daily throughout this nation. I reacted to learning of this incident by removing the decal on my rear window reflecting my support for local PD - my continued support is currently "under review" . More and more people are realizing that such tactics by law enforcement are "over-the-line", and must be halted.
Last edited on Sun Apr 26th, 2009 07:24 pm by SANDCREEK
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JeepSeller
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| Joined: | Tue Apr 21st, 2009 |
| Location: | Orlando, FL |
| Posts: | 125 |
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Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 08:05 pm |
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TomTom,
Don't take Smoking-Something's comments to seriously. I'm sure I really don't need to remind you that the vast majority of good decent American citizens obviously do not share his offensive views toward Law Enforcement and the service they provide to our society so honorably.
If you'll check his profile and even quickly scan through a sampling of his posts, you'll see he somehow seems to get his jollys by attempting to inflame or incite a reaction from people. I have no doubt you have plenty of experince dealing whith his kind.
As the "Default" thread clearly indicates, it's really best to avoid feeding the Trolls. 
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TomTom
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Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 08:25 pm |
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JeepSeller wrote: TomTom,
Don't take Smoking-Something's comments to seriously. I'm sure I really don't need to remind you that the vast majority of good decent American citizens obviously do not share his offensive views toward Law Enforcement and the service they provide to our society so honorably.
If you'll check his profile and even quickly scan through a sampling of his posts, you'll see he somehow seems to get his jollys by attempting to inflame or incite a reaction from people. I have no doubt you have plenty of experince dealing whith his kind.
As the "Default" thread clearly indicates, it's really best to avoid feeding the Trolls.
I don't, I've dealt with many people like him and have learned to just ignore them. I have enjoyed the adult conversation that has been had in this forum. People like him tend to just ruin it for everyone.
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 09:10 pm |
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SANDCREEK wrote: The Wooster Ohio HP will soon be "updated" concerning civil rights by the DOJ.
This sort of travesty occurs daily throughout this nation. I reacted to learning of this incident by removing the decal on my rear window reflecting my support for local PD - my continued support is currently "under review" . More and more people are realizing that such tactics by law enforcement are "over-the-line", and must be halted.
Great post. I can defend myself against criminals, and I can insure myself against their theft. I have no defense or insurance against police violence and thievery.
When police switched their mission from "keeping the peace" to "law enforcement," America ceased being a free country.
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SANDCREEK
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 09:42 pm |
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smoking357 wrote: SANDCREEK wrote: The Wooster Ohio HP will soon be "updated" concerning civil rights by the DOJ.
This sort of travesty occurs daily throughout this nation. I reacted to learning of this incident by removing the decal on my rear window reflecting my support for local PD - my continued support is currently "under review" . More and more people are realizing that such tactics by law enforcement are "over-the-line", and must be halted.
Great post. I can defend myself against criminals, and I can insure myself against their theft. I have no defense or insurance against police violence and thievery.
When police switched their mission from "keeping the peace" to "law enforcement," America ceased being a free country.
LEO's across this nation are just going to have to commit to spending at least as much time educating themselves on the law, as they spend memorizing tactics designed to facilitate the abuse of their authority in trampling on the rights of others under the colour of law.
My son was a LEO in Texas for years . He made a career change due to his involvement in a righteous shooting - incident to a hostage situation. His actions were justified, but the department did not stand behind him for political reasons. I know from that experience and the civil suit that he went through - that being a COP is the hardest job in the world.
The answer though isn't to trample on the civil rights of others.
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 09:56 pm |
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SANDCREEK wrote: LEO's across this nation are just going to have to commit to spending at least as much time educating themselves on the law, as they spend memorizing tactics designed to facilitate the abuse of their authority in trampling on the rights of others under the colour of law.
My son was a LEO in Texas for years . He made a career change due to his involvement in a righteous shooting - incident to a hostage situation. His actions were justified, but the department did not stand behind him for political reasons. I know from that experience and the civil suit that he went through - that being a COP is the hardest job in the world.
The answer though isn't to trample on the civil rights of others.
Just remember that being a police officer is the one job you can't do if you're too intelligent:
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_56314.html
Police reject candidate for being too intelligent A US man has been rejected in his bid to become a police officer for scoring too high on an intelligence test.
Robert Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took an exam to join the New London police, in Connecticut, in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125.
But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training.
Mr Jordan launched a federal lawsuit against the city, but lost.
The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York upheld a lower court's decision that the city did not discriminate against Mr Jordan because the same standards were applied to everyone who took the test.
He said: "This kind of puts an official face on discrimination in America against people of a certain class. I maintain you have no more control over your basic intelligence than your eye color or your gender or anything else."
He said he does not plan to take any further legal action and has worked as a prison guard since he took the test.
The average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22, the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average.
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Highlander
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 29th, 2009 02:46 am |
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smoking357 wrote:
Given that America's police frequently engage in outright executions,
Cite please.
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JeepSeller
Regular Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 21st, 2009 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 29th, 2009 03:17 am |
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Highlander wrote: smoking357 wrote:
Given that America's police frequently engage in outright executions,
Cite please.
Highlander...
Smoking-something's only purpose here is to make statements that inflame and offend. If you made a post commenting on how nice the stars are tonight, he'd find some argument just to be spitefull. Nothing he says has any value to a REAL discussion of any sort.
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acrimsontide
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Posted: Wed Apr 29th, 2009 04:11 am |
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JeepSeller wrote: Highlander wrote: smoking357 wrote:
Given that America's police frequently engage in outright executions,
Cite please.
Highlander...
Smoking-something's only purpose here is to make statements that inflame and offend. If you made a post commenting on how nice the stars are tonight, he'd find some argument just to be spitefull. Nothing he says has any value to a REAL discussion of any sort.
Jeep, you are right on that one. Probably the best thing we could all do would be to just ignore Smoking's post and not respond to them at all. He thrives on the attention that he gets from the responses. Maybe if we ignore him he will either grow up or go away. He does his thing on other forums as well and always causes friction.
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Wed Apr 29th, 2009 04:15 am |
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JeepSeller wrote: Highlander wrote: smoking357 wrote:
Given that America's police frequently engage in outright executions,
Cite please.
Highlander...
Smoking-something's only purpose here is to make statements that inflame and offend. If you made a post commenting on how nice the stars are tonight, he'd find some argument just to be spitefull. Nothing he says has any value to a REAL discussion of any sort.
You really can't be serious:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKy-WSZMklc
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Recovering Californian
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 29th, 2009 04:21 pm |
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| Wow! Some of these cops on here continue to amaze me. First of all, I detect a massive inferiority complex with them. They can't stand it unless they are the ones in control of every situation. Police are supposed to be "Peace Officers", and to keep the peace. Sadly, they have devolved into revenue generators and unconstitutional law enforcement agents. The facts are that both good guys AND bad guys carry guns. Also, there are good AND bad cops out there as well. Just because you have a badge, your rights do not exceed mine, and I will not tolerate any cop violating my rights. Thankfully, I live in Northern Arizona, where most cops are not jack-booted thugs. If I were to encounter one, I would fry his ass in court with my audio recording, witness statements, and subpoenas. I would personally sue him, as well as his department. BTW, my Uncle, who is a LEO completely agrees with me. He views himself as a "Peace Officer", not a Nazi Revenue Collector. If this seems rude, then oh well. If you have no respect for my rights, then I have no respect for you. Last edited on Wed Apr 29th, 2009 04:22 pm by Recovering Californian
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