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Glock23-4-Me
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Feb 12th, 2009 |
| Location: | Tampa, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 51 |
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 02:55 am |
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JeepSeller wrote: Brian, AKA smokescreen, or smoking-something...
Let me guess, from the looks of the picture of you, *you never denied it..* I'd say you're young. Maybe not a kid, but, young. You live with your mom. And you got tired of getting your rear handed to you while agitating other players on x-box live. So, you've decided to hit up the web boards because you can jump in anonymously, beat your chest, then run and hide only to come back when you've developed either enough courage to hit back or copied enough text from some source vastly superior to your own intelligence in an futile attempt to rebuke your attackers. Something you couldn't do on x-box live.
I'm betting I'm pretty close to the pin here....
WELL SAID, JeepSeller, WELL SAID
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rmodel65
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 28th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 322 |
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 05:27 am |
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acrimsontide wrote: JeepSeller wrote: I'm the one that took him off topic on the color of targets. I was merely pointing out more evidence that this guy is only out to create conflict. AKA a troll! The boy can't even talk about shooting clay targets without getting folks all up in a fuss.
Sorry, I should have known better. Some people's trains of thought are just easier to derail than others. 
Ah, no problem. I'm sure he wants to change the subject anyway!!! It's starting to be fun watching him evade the issue that he is calling the rest of us un American over and that's to stand up for his rights. I'm sure we can all think of places in Florida that he can go to get noticed and persue his course of action. Maybe an afternoon at Disney World with his gun on his hip, possibly a walk on a crowded beach, shopping trip to the mall etc. Heck if he goes the capital steps route or a day at Disney, he might even get mentioned by Katie Couric on CBS, that would give him a good start on his publicity. Letterman might even work it into his opening routine.
that legal without a license as long as your open carrying and going to fish correct?
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 01:43 pm |
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Glock23-4-Me wrote: It may be worth a shot but if the mod are not willing to ban him based on his b.s. alone, why would they listen to how we feel about him?
They shouldn't.
This isn't mob rule, and the trio of you whining Liberals are ardently anti-gun.
Keep this discussion on the law, instead of your bitterness at being defteated over your anti-gun platform.
Quit running. Quit hiding. Answer these questions:
1. Can the State ever be defaulted on a firearm license?
2. If the State refused to issue licenses, what would be your recourse?
3. If an anti-gun Governor and head of DOACS agreed to stop issuing licenses, would you support those who considered themselves default approved and fit to carry arms?
Don't be chicken, now, boy. Can you manage to stay on topic? Can you answer the questions?
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OneInThePipe
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 20th, 2009 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 19 |
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 01:54 pm |
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smoking357 wrote: Glock23-4-Me wrote: It may be worth a shot but if the mod are not willing to ban him based on his b.s. alone, why would they listen to how we feel about him?
They shouldn't.
This isn't mob rule, and the trio of you whining Liberals are ardently anti-gun.
Keep this discussion on the law, instead of your bitterness at being defteated over your anti-gun platform.
Quit running. Quit hiding. Answer these questions:
1. Can the State ever be defaulted on a firearm license?
2. If the State refused to issue licenses, what would be your recourse?
3. If an anti-gun Governor and head of DOACS agreed to stop issuing licenses, would you support those who considered themselves default approved and fit to carry arms?
Don't be chicken, now, boy. Can you manage to stay on topic? Can you answer the questions?
You are the one changing the topic.
You have been asked to respond to the 2 challenges and you keep ignoring them and spewing your garbage. Asking us questions does not change the fact that you aren't answering our questions.
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 03:04 pm |
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OneInThePipe wrote:
You are the one changing the topic.
The topic is Florida law regarding default approval of firearm permits. Pay attention.
Don't be chicken, now, boy. Answer the questions. Why the reluctance to engage in a pro-gun discussion? Why the attack on gun rights?
Again:
1. Can the State ever be defaulted on a firearm license?
2. If the State refused to issue licenses, what would be your recourse?
3. If an anti-gun Governor and head of DOACS agreed to stop issuing licenses, would you support those who considered themselves default approved and fit to carry arms?
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fridaddy
Regular Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 18th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 36 |
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 03:38 pm |
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Sorry Glock you and whoever you talked to at DOACS is wrong. If you are entitled to a default license, of any type, under 120.60, you only need proof of notification to the agency. You do not have to wait for them to send you anything.
Fla. Stat. 120.60 is part of the Florida Administrative Procedures Act. While it applies to developers, it is not about developers. The Act is designed to prevent the bureaucracy from sitting on permit applications. It applies to all administrative agencies in the state regardless of subject matter. Once you send the default notice, it is the departments obligation to move to cancel the permit by a hearing before an agency hearing officer.
As for the requests to Smoking to put his actions where his beliefs are, I think you are all reacting to his charming manner. If any of you here really trust the police to know and follow the law you are living in fantasy land.
As you can read in another thread
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum17/20492-2.html
I put my action where my mouth was, and I am doing it again this weekend by OC'ing on a camping trip. Before taking the action, I took steps to educate the local LEO's. Of 4 different LEOs I talked to, only 1 was aware of the law until I showed it to them. I also surprised 3 different Judges when I pointed out the statute to them.
Let me tell you, I really had to educate! During the process I learned that the abbreviated statute book given to Florida Fish and Wildlife Officers does not even include the complete version of Chapter 790, firearms crimes. Specifically, it omits 790.25 which says you can carry openly when hunting, fishing or camping. This is the State issued book for Fish and wildlife LEOs.
If the state is giving LEOs incomplete books to refer to when making an arrest would you trust them to know the law?
Yes Smoking will get arrested when he is caught, but that doesn't mean he is wrong. It just means the cops do not know the law. I wouldn't walk up to a LEO either to be arrested wrongfully. If they knew the law and followed it, I would be out of a job and we would not need a criminal court system.
Smoking, I really wish you could discuss these matters without losing your cool. I will probably get flamed for agreeing with your position not because I am wrong but because of your attitude. Until you can discuss these matters in a calm manner you are doing as much harm as those you accuse of not being strong on the 2nd amendment. Please spend more time educating and less agitating. Your initial posts was great and led to a potentially great discussion that instead became completely worthless.
THIS POST IS FOR THE DISCUSSION OF LEGAL ISSUES AND IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. NO ATTORNEY CLIENT RELATIONSHIP IS INTENDED OR IMPLIED.
Last edited on Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 03:39 pm by fridaddy
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acrimsontide
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 308 |
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 04:11 pm |
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smoking357 wrote: Glock23-4-Me wrote: It may be worth a shot but if the mod are not willing to ban him based on his b.s. alone, why would they listen to how we feel about him?
They shouldn't.
This isn't mob rule, and the trio of you whining Liberals are ardently anti-gun.
Keep this discussion on the law, instead of your bitterness at being defteated over your anti-gun platform.
Quit running. Quit hiding. Answer these questions:
1. Can the State ever be defaulted on a firearm license?
2. If the State refused to issue licenses, what would be your recourse?
3. If an anti-gun Governor and head of DOACS agreed to stop issuing licenses, would you support those who considered themselves default approved and fit to carry arms?
Don't be chicken, now, boy. Can you manage to stay on topic? Can you answer the questions?
Smokescreenbs, (Smoking357)
I am not anti-gun but I am anti BS and that is what you are putting forth here on the forum. You remind me of those Islamic idealist that promote suicide bombers. You have this "great vision" of pushing for your cause but obviously you want others to take the risks. Like those who would send suicide bombers, you don't have the guts to put yourself in jeapardy. Why don't you quit spouting off your rhetoric about others being anti gun, un American, etc and step up to the plate yourself? We ahve suggested numerous places where you can start the process but you pefer the safety of an internet forum. You are no patriot, but someone who just loves to provoke others, but only those others from which you can hide. Man up and stand up for those rights that you so strongly believe in.
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 04:22 pm |
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fridaddy wrote: Smoking, I really wish you could discuss these matters without losing your cool.
I know I'm right. You know I'm right. If they read the law, they'd know we're right. Perhaps they're stupid. Perhaps they're Brady plants. Perhaps they're in too deep in their rage and cannot admit defeat. At this point, it matters little. They're squarely on the anti-gun side.
I posted this procedural mechanism on their forum to do them a favor, and they attacked gun rights with disgusting fury. This thread did exactly what I intended it to do. Not only do I find their "Wal-Mart walk to be insufferably white trash, but I know how much they despise the default process and anyone who thinks himself intelligent or fit to act without another's say-so.
It's now not enough just to be right, but to punish them for their ingratitude and insolence. If that's petty, so be it, but they deserve it. They're on my line, and I'm jerking the pole. They could go away and strip me of my power over them, but they're drawn to me like moths to a flame.
When they finally learn that they're wrong, and they are making inquiries into the subject, I'm really going to enjoy myself. I suspect that on that day they may quietly go away or further hide behind the non sequitur of "attitude."
If I tell you "two plus two equals four, you ignorant, revolting, pond-scum, piece of trash," the argument is true.
Out of this exchange, and as a result of living here, I can say this with all honesty: Florida has a very weak body of gun owners. They like to own guns, sure, but they lack the fire in the belly you'll find in most other pro-gun states. Heck, Illinois is institutionally anti-gun, but the folks at the Champaign County Rifle and Pistol Association, http://www.gunssavelife.com, positively humiliate the faint hearts here.
Perhaps snow sharpens the mind and tempers the soul.
Lastly, thank you for having the courage to speak the truth.
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 04:25 pm |
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acrimsontide wrote: Smokescreenbs, (Smoking357)
I am not anti-gun but I am anti BS and that is what you are putting forth here on the forum. You remind me of those Islamic idealist that promote suicide bombers. You have this "great vision" of pushing for your cause but obviously you want others to take the risks. Like those who would send suicide bombers, you don't have the guts to put yourself in jeapardy. Why don't you quit spouting off your rhetoric about others being anti gun, un American, etc and step up to the plate yourself? We ahve suggested numerous places where you can start the process but you pefer the safety of an internet forum. You are no patriot, but someone who just loves to provoke others, but only those others from which you can hide. Man up and stand up for those rights that you so strongly believe in.
I'M THE ONE DOING THE DEFAULT WALK, YOU DOPE!
NOT ONLY ARE YOU NOT ENCOURAGING ME, YOU'RE ATTACKING ME FOR STANDING UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS.
Now, no more posts until you answer these questions:
1. Can the State ever be defaulted on a firearm license?
2. If the State refused to issue licenses, what would be your recourse?
3. If an anti-gun Governor and head of DOACS agreed to stop issuing licenses, would you support those who considered themselves default approved and fit to carry arms?
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OneInThePipe
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 20th, 2009 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 19 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 04:51 pm |
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fridaddy wrote: Sorry Glock you and whoever you talked to at DOACS is wrong. If you are entitled to a default license, of any type, under 120.60, you only need proof of notification to the agency. You do not have to wait for them to send you anything.
Fla. Stat. 120.60 is part of the Florida Administrative Procedures Act. While it applies to developers, it is not about developers. The Act is designed to prevent the bureaucracy from sitting on permit applications. It applies to all administrative agencies in the state regardless of subject matter. Once you send the default notice, it is the departments obligation to move to cancel the permit by a hearing before an agency hearing officer.
As for the requests to Smoking to put his actions where his beliefs are, I think you are all reacting to his charming manner. If any of you here really trust the police to know and follow the law you are living in fantasy land.
As you can read in another thread
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum17/20492-2.html
I put my action where my mouth was, and I am doing it again this weekend by OC'ing on a camping trip. Before taking the action, I took steps to educate the local LEO's. Of 4 different LEOs I talked to, only 1 was aware of the law until I showed it to them. I also surprised 3 different Judges when I pointed out the statute to them.
Let me tell you, I really had to educate! During the process I learned that the abbreviated statute book given to Florida Fish and Wildlife Officers does not even include the complete version of Chapter 790, firearms crimes. Specifically, it omits 790.25 which says you can carry openly when hunting, fishing or camping. This is the State issued book for Fish and wildlife LEOs.
If the state is giving LEOs incomplete books to refer to when making an arrest would you trust them to know the law?
Yes Smoking will get arrested when he is caught, but that doesn't mean he is wrong. It just means the cops do not know the law. I wouldn't walk up to a LEO either to be arrested wrongfully. If they knew the law and followed it, I would be out of a job and we would not need a criminal court system.
Smoking, I really wish you could discuss these matters without losing your cool. I will probably get flamed for agreeing with your position not because I am wrong but because of your attitude. Until you can discuss these matters in a calm manner you are doing as much harm as those you accuse of not being strong on the 2nd amendment. Please spend more time educating and less agitating. Your initial posts was great and led to a potentially great discussion that instead became completely worthless.
THIS POST IS FOR THE DISCUSSION OF LEGAL ISSUES AND IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. NO ATTORNEY CLIENT RELATIONSHIP IS INTENDED OR IMPLIED.
Doesn't that just mean that they will have to issue you a license by default? Meaning they are forced to issue it.
Doesn't it man that you still have to have them send it to you before you are legal?
I see nothing that gives you a "default right" to CC without having the license from the state. Nor does it allow you to print up your own CC license because they defaulted.
I'll read the OC carry thread you referenced. That is a slightly different topic that what we have been discussing but it does show the lack of knowledge of the law that some LEOs and state officials have.
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JeepSeller
Regular Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 21st, 2009 |
| Location: | Orlando, FL |
| Posts: | 125 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 05:06 pm |
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fridaddy wrote: Sorry Glock you and whoever you talked to at DOACS is wrong. If you are entitled to a default license, of any type, under 120.60, you only need proof of notification to the agency. You do not have to wait for them to send you anything.
Fla. Stat. 120.60 is part of the Florida Administrative Procedures Act. While it applies to developers, it is not about developers. The Act is designed to prevent the bureaucracy from sitting on permit applications. It applies to all administrative agencies in the state regardless of subject matter. Once you send the default notice, it is the departments obligation to move to cancel the permit by a hearing before an agency hearing officer....
Now, finally, an actual logical INTELLIGENT way to have a discussion or debate. Now, I'm afraid I still have to disagree with you fridaddy, but, I'm guessing anyway, that you have the ability to either continue to try to convince me civilly, or to just accept that we don't agree. Something your counterpart there obviously doesn't have. He finally admits that his goals are to inflame. Sad waste of energy in my opinion. He's not serious about his gun rights. Sad. But, he does admit to having a problem and admitting one has a problem is usually the hardest step. I applaud him for his progress.
Now, to your post.
First of all, I don't disagree with points made before. I agree that we shouldn't have to ask permission to carry at all. But, currently, the laws of this state require I do. Just because I disagree with it, doesn't mean I can violate that law. Right? We should be working this hard to change the laws, not debating any action that could be construed as violating them. Right or wrong. It's just not good for our causes. It reflects poorly on our way of life.
I don't disagree with your post in the sense that the law, as I understand it, is that if the license isn't issued within the prescribed time period, currently 90 days, then you have the right to request a hearing on the subject forcing the state to either approve or deny at said hearing and back up their decision.
But, I still see nowhere, again, as I understand it, that gives you the right to simply strap on your hog leg at the 91 day point simply because you fired off a letter. As your counterpart has pointed out many times, perhaps the cops can't just make up laws, but, neither can we. We have a system in place for that. Good or bad, that's how it is. Violating that system or trying to circumvent it won't help things at all.
There are other laws, that have been stated here, that also require a licensed person to have that license on them at all times while exercising that licensed action. A licensed contractor is required to have on their person that license at all times when working in the performance of a contractor. If not, they are in violation of the law. A licensed driver is required to have that card with them at all times. A Private Investigator is required to have it at all times...etc...etc.. One is in violation of the law if any different. And yes, I know.... let's not split hairs here on semantics of rights vs. privileges, all of here know that road well. Currently, the state of Florida requires us to get permission to exercise our right. Right or wrong, That's the law. Just because it's wrong or we don't agree with it doesn't give us the right to just ignore it. That's not cowtoeing to anyone! That's protecting my right to keep and bear by remaining a law abiding citizen. That's being a good citizen and working within the law to exact change, not work against it.
I'm also afraid I don't share either of your disdain for LEO's and the judges. While, yes, some are rotten apples. To lump then all into one bad basked is just wrong and there's no excusing it, and it's just another form of bigotry.
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JeepSeller
Regular Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 21st, 2009 |
| Location: | Orlando, FL |
| Posts: | 125 |
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 05:41 pm |
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And, by the way Brian-smoking-something,
You've openly mocked and ridiculed the so called wal mart walk as silly. Yet, you eagerly jumped in here to proclaim your default-walk. That was a dumb mistake I can't possibly let slide given your tirades.
You've constantly accused others of failing to stand up for their rights and take action. I hardly call a wander around the safety of your own neighborhood any kind of demonstrable "action".
You can sit behind the anonymity of your computer screen all day long and spew ilk. But, you can't hide from the facts.
You can keep going, but, it's got to sting a bit now knowing that most people here now have your number and can't possibly take you seriously.
Last edited on Sat Apr 25th, 2009 05:28 am by JeepSeller
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 05:41 pm |
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JeepSeller wrote: But, I still see nowhere, again, as I understand it, that gives you the right to simply strap on your hog leg at the 91 day point simply because you fired off a letter.
I'm also afraid I don't share either of your disdain for LEO's and the judges. While, yes, some are rotten apples. To lump then all into one bad basked is just wrong and there's no excusing it, and it's just another form of bigotry.
1st Paragraph: And applied for a license, and completed the forms, and mailed in the forms, and paid the fee, and waited 90 days - all per statute.
I posted a case on this subject. Did you read it? It's really quite clear. This is exactly what one gets to do.
2nd Paragraph: When you work in this business, you'll see them for what they are.
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 05:46 pm |
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JeepSeller wrote: I hardly call a wander around the safety of your own neighborhood any kind of demonstrable "action".
How is my neighborhood safe? Walking around the neighborhood is principally where one is in most need of a gun.
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 05:47 pm |
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JeepSeller wrote: You can keep going, but, it's got to sting a bit now knowing that most people here now have your number and can't possibly take you seriously.
Except for the attorney who said I was right and you were wrong.
Still holding your breath on this?
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 05:53 pm |
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OneInThePipe wrote:
Doesn't that just mean that they will have to issue you a license by default? Meaning they are forced to issue it.
No. It means by their inaction they have issued it.
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JeepSeller
Regular Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 21st, 2009 |
| Location: | Orlando, FL |
| Posts: | 125 |
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 06:04 pm |
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smoking357 wrote: JeepSeller wrote: You can keep going, but, it's got to sting a bit now knowing that most people here now have your number and can't possibly take you seriously.
Except for the attorney who said I was right and you were wrong.
Still holding your breath on this?
With all due respect to said attorney. What makes them guaranteed right? What holy power makes them always correct?
Besides, the lawyers only make arguments based on their own understanding of the law and any cases that pertain to that law. They don't MAKE the law, they don't ENFORCE the law, and they don't make decisions based on the law. They don't hand down the penalties for violation. I'm sorry, but, they just aren't in charge here. They don't regulate my actions. The LAW does!
Sorry. Just as you may have encountered a few bad apples in Law enforcement, I've run across a handful of bad apple lawyers. They're not above reproach either you know. Lawyers are far from infallible. I chose not to be a bigot about it myself.
Some doctors make mistakes, are all doctors rotten? Some truck drivers make mistakes, are all truck drivers rotten? Some McDonald's employees are...well, you get my point. Even if you don't like it. What do you do? I'll bet you have co-workers who've made mistakes. Does that mean YOU are rotten?
Try again.
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Glock23-4-Me
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Feb 12th, 2009 |
| Location: | Tampa, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 51 |
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Offline
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 06:51 pm |
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what he said
Last edited on Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 06:52 pm by Glock23-4-Me
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 06:58 pm |
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JeepSeller wrote: With all due respect to said attorney. What makes them guaranteed right? What holy power makes them always correct?
Besides, the lawyers only make arguments based on their own understanding of the law and any cases that pertain to that law. They don't MAKE the law, they don't ENFORCE the law, and they don't make decisions based on the law. They don't hand down the penalties for violation. I'm sorry, but, they just aren't in charge here. They don't regulate my actions. The LAW does!
Sorry. Just as you may have encountered a few bad apples in Law enforcement, I've run across a handful of bad apple lawyers. They're not above reproach either you know. Lawyers are far from infallible. I chose not to be a bigot about it myself.
Some doctors make mistakes, are all doctors rotten? Some truck drivers make mistakes, are all truck drivers rotten? Some McDonald's employees are...well, you get my point. Even if you don't like it. What do you do? I'll bet you have co-workers who've made mistakes. Does that mean YOU are rotten?
Try again.
O.K. Have it your way. Just stay out of mine.
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acrimsontide
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 17th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 308 |
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Offline
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 08:00 pm |
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smoking357 wrote:
I'M THE ONE DOING THE DEFAULT WALK, YOU DOPE!
NOT ONLY ARE YOU NOT ENCOURAGING ME, YOU'RE ATTACKING ME FOR STANDING UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS.
Now, no more posts until you answer these questions:
Tell you what dude, when you become a moderator, you can control when I post, but not before. I will agree to answer your questions when you actually do the "default walk" as you call it in a location where it matters, not just on an internet forum or in some location where you are unlikely to be confronted by LEOs. You have done nothing but resort to name calling. As for "not encouraging" you, that is pulely and simply a lie as many here have told you to stand up for your rights in a public place, not just a forum. Don't use "not encouraging me" as an excuse for your lack of fortitude to practice what you preach.
Quite frankly, you were fun for a while, but you are starting to be boring.
Last edited on Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 08:09 pm by acrimsontide
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