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Jonesy
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Posted: Fri May 8th, 2009 02:17 am |
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smn wrote: Perhaps I found my inner sheep. But from the onset I believed I was being detained because the officers gave conflicting answers when I asked if I was free to go or if I was being detained.
Next time I'll be more prepared.
A few thoughts. Have the voice recorder, which you already know. Continue to ask if you are being detained. If they say no, say ok then I am leaving, and begin to walk away. If they want to detain you, get it plain as day. Then you will have them for an illegal seizure of your person, no RAS or probable cause (assuming the caller didn't say you were doing anything illegal). When they go for the weapon, verbally object by stating you do not consent to any searches, but do not physically resist. If you are carrying in a holster, request that if the weapon is removed from your person, that it stay in the holster. State again that you do not consent to any searches. Object to them running the serial number, and state it is your gun, but you object to them searching it for the serial numbers.
In most states, you have no obligation to show ID, although some states have a statute requiring you to show when requested by an officer (unsure re Georgia). In Virginia, the proper procedure is to tell them your name, but object to showing ID. I would object to show ID, and if ordered to I would comply but state that I believe the officer is improperly requiring me to do so. Hope this helps.
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codename_47
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Posted: Sat May 9th, 2009 03:16 pm |
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Continue to ask if you are being detained.
I disagree. The detainment, absent any changing circumstances is a one time thing. Yes, you walk. No, you forget how to speak english.
I would object to show ID, and if ordered to I would comply but state that I believe the officer is improperly requiring me to do so.
I so hate this "the cop ordered me to do it" stuff. You are not in the military, and neither are they. They have ZERO authority to march you around or tell you to do stuff in a general sense. Sure, they can tell you to put your hands up and all, but this demanding information and ID is for the birds. You do not show him. If you do, then he merely requested it, and you gave it to him in a consensual encounter, you will probably lose in a 4th amendment challenge. Do not show him any ID unless required by law, period. This is right up there with talking to the police in any capacity. Just don't do it!
Last edited on Sat May 9th, 2009 03:18 pm by codename_47
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Jonesy
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun May 10th, 2009 06:26 am |
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codename_47 wrote: Continue to ask if you are being detained.
I disagree. The detainment, absent any changing circumstances is a one time thing. Yes, you walk. No, you forget how to speak english.
I would object to show ID, and if ordered to I would comply but state that I believe the officer is improperly requiring me to do so.
I so hate this "the cop ordered me to do it" stuff. You are not in the military, and neither are they. They have ZERO authority to march you around or tell you to do stuff in a general sense. Sure, they can tell you to put your hands up and all, but this demanding information and ID is for the birds. You do not show him. If you do, then he merely requested it, and you gave it to him in a consensual encounter, you will probably lose in a 4th amendment challenge. Do not show him any ID unless required by law, period. This is right up there with talking to the police in any capacity. Just don't do it!
If you want to refuse an order of a police officer given under color of authority, go ahead, me, I will simply assert my rights and comply with orders, and record with my voice recorder any unlawful conduct. Showing ID after initially refusing and then stating you are doing so despite knowing it is improper does not magically convert it into being consensual. I have been in this situation, and refused to show ID 4 times when asked by an officer, and never showed him. By order I do not mean the cop saying show me some ID. I mean the cop saying show me ID or we are going to arrest you.
In many states like Virginia where I live, a citizen is entitled to resist an unlawful arrest. But you better be damn sure the arrest is unlawful before doing so. I will never physically resist unless I am in grave danger, nor will I resist direct orders, although I will verbally object.
Last edited on Sun May 10th, 2009 06:35 am by Jonesy
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old dog
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Posted: Sun May 10th, 2009 10:27 am |
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Resist physically and you've given Officer Mongo an excuse to brain you -- or worse. After all, he once scored four touchdowns in a single game.
Seriously, can police demand a driver's license unless you are stopped in a vehicle?
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codename_47
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Posted: Sun May 10th, 2009 04:24 pm |
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Seriously, can police demand a driver's license unless you are stopped in a vehicle?
Sure, they can demand you hop on one leg and pat your head too. Some people may do it, while I would refuse. In both of these cases, there is no legal requirement to do it, they are requesting you do it, and you are complying consensually.
Furthermore, there is no legal requirement to have a driver's license, at all. Some people don't have them. The Amish spring to mind, but there are also people who live in NYC where there is ample public transportation and you just don't need one. Besides, what are they going to do? Arrest you for not having a license?
Showing ID after initially refusing and then stating you are doing so despite knowing it is improper does not magically convert it into being consensual.
That is what their report will say and that is what will be said in court, assuming it gets that far. I'd rather be arrested for not showing him ID and beat them down in a civil suit vs giving them a potential defense.
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Jonesy
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Posted: Mon May 11th, 2009 05:55 pm |
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codename_47 wrote: Seriously, can police demand a driver's license unless you are stopped in a vehicle?
Sure, they can demand you hop on one leg and pat your head too. Some people may do it, while I would refuse. In both of these cases, there is no legal requirement to do it, they are requesting you do it, and you are complying consensually.
Furthermore, there is no legal requirement to have a driver's license, at all. Some people don't have them. The Amish spring to mind, but there are also people who live in NYC where there is ample public transportation and you just don't need one. Besides, what are they going to do? Arrest you for not having a license?
Showing ID after initially refusing and then stating you are doing so despite knowing it is improper does not magically convert it into being consensual.
That is what their report will say and that is what will be said in court, assuming it gets that far. I'd rather be arrested for not showing him ID and beat them down in a civil suit vs giving them a potential defense.
If their reports contains such lies they will have a tough time when we play my voice recording to the prosecutor. They may then be facing charges.
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Jonesy
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Posted: Wed May 13th, 2009 04:25 pm |
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| Check out this thread, it should give you some ideas. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/25728.html
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rpyne
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Posted: Thu May 14th, 2009 03:35 am |
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Fallschirmjäger wrote: Don't know if there is any RFID chip in the Passport Card, never really thought about it.
Yes, passport cards do have RFID chips. Didn't you read the information that came with the card? They even come with a shielded pouch to keep it in to prevent it from being read.
Any information on the chip would likely not be useful to the average law enforcement officer not carrying the proper chip reader, and I doubt many carry that while on patrol.
It may surprise you what can be done with the information on the RFID chip in your passport card, not the least of which is it can be used to forge passports.
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smn
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Posted: Thu May 14th, 2009 02:26 pm |
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My complaint concerning the incident should be in the chief's hands today.
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smn
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Posted: Wed Jun 10th, 2009 05:13 pm |
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I received a letter today from Chief Brett Evans recognizing my complaint "as more of a policy or training failure than a malicious disregard" of my rights. My incident and letter is under review by their attorneys and upper division staff. Chief Evans will contact me again in 30 days.
I'm pleased upon receiving this response. Chief Evans corrects the differences in context between my incident and that of in Florida v. JL, in that the call was not anonymous. I will follow up by referring to US v. Dudley; although Dudley is not Supreme Court precedent, it does state that you can't get RAS from a phone call.
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rmodel65
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Posted: Thu Jun 11th, 2009 05:01 am |
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arent all phone calls anonymous??
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smn
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Posted: Thu Jun 11th, 2009 12:52 pm |
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The responding officers did meet with the complainant(s) for a couple of minutes before approaching me. That time is a good indicator of my lawful behavior.
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thejax
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Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 01:04 pm |
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If they hav e a record of who the complainant(s) are, I would find where they live and show up, unarmed ofcourse, and speak to them nicely, not accuse them of anything, and educate them. Who knows, they may do it to someone else because they are ignorant of the law.
They may feel stupid and apologize.
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smn
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Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 01:57 pm |
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I found out who the complainant was in an open records request. I then called the person (who was the manager of the day at Monkey Joe's) and spoke with her. It was very civil.
Calling the police wasn't a big concern of mine, but when the responding officers weren't up to date with current law then that's a problem.
It's also time to write the chief for an update on his Administrative review.
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