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Pa. Patriot
State Researcher
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 02:47 pm |
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Alphamike wrote:
To those who OC in public places I would ask that you consider the effect of your actions on ordinary citizens. Justifiably or not, OC scares people. Scared citizens are not going to "get used to it", they are going to demand action from their public officials (who may be anti-gun to begin with). Despite the reputation of Idaho as being a gun free paradise, I can tell you from personal experience that the true believers in the legislature (such as Sen. McKenzie) are in the decided minority. Most are not idealogical about gun issues and can be turned if their constituents (backed by interest groups) demands "reasonable" regulation of behavior that is seen as "unreasonable".
Besides making my job as an advocate for firearms freedoms more difficult, public OC "because I can" carries the very real risk that we could lose hard won ground in the form of more restrictions on CCW. The legislature apparently cannot regulate OC but they definitely CAN regulate CCW, which I would submit is a lot more important to the personal security of the vast majority of gun owners.
I don’t have time to engage in public debate or flame wars over this. If anyone has any reasonable questions you may PM me.
You posted publicly, therefor my reply will be publlic.
The notion that OC scares people is completely erroneous in my experiences.
I OC all over PA and have never seen any one single person get "scared".
I also challenge your presumption that OC will lead to more legislation. I've heard this repeated on numerous forums and it never comes to light.
Frankly, I'm tired of folks that don't OC, telling me what will happen because of OC. Predictibly, the claims always prove empty.
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Patriot
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 03:59 pm |
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Pa. Patriot,
As evidenced by this incident, I am obviously all for OC,(BTW, I was one of the first 30 or so members of this site). I OC quite a lot, but hear me out...
Saint won a great victory for us all. The cops were educated, the librarian was educated, the city attourneys were educated, etc.
I'll make this extreme, so you get the point...
If I OC mt AR-15s at the library and in the city parks on a regular basis, ther WILL be political preasure, and laws WILL be created to stop me. If you don't think so, you are wrong
This is sad and wrong, but it is the world we live in.
I will continue to OC, and if I happen to be in a park, or at the library, I will still OC. But if we held weekly OC events in the childrens literature section of the library, some idiot of a mother who happens to be from a wealthy family WILL shut us down.
The idea is to consider the long term goal, and strategically work toward it. Nobody's saying "dont OC", just always consider what you are doing, and possible consecuences. Now that's just plain old good advice for life!
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Flintlock
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 05:01 pm |
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The main issue I have with alphamike's comments is that he fails to take into consideration the advantage of public desensitization when firearms are openly displayed. He is right in one thing... The people as a whole, (depending on the location) are "scared" for the most part when they see firearms, but I think that has more to do with education than anything else. people simply cannot fathom how it is "allowed" to openly carry weapons when one is not a police officer or without some form of government permission slip (permit).
With education, comes understanding. We shouldn't conceal our weapons because certain people do not have that understanding.
We live in a terribly hoplophobic society. That will never change if we follow alphamike's advice.
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Citizen
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 05:24 pm |
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I've had many more positive encounters with John Q. Public than negative.
I suspect the press' focus on the anti- side of the story gives a false impression that many, many people would be unnerved at the sight of an OC'd handgun.
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Patriot
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 05:24 pm |
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You may be ascribing the wrong emotion to those people...
I'm not sure I have ever seen someone "scared" by my OC. Instead, I occationally see someone who made up their mind a long time ago, and they are pissed/angry/upset that I would dare to OC.
If the librarian was scared, he would have hid from Saint, and then called 911. He didn't hide. He was pissed that Saint would openly display his freedom, so he confronted him. Again, that is evidence of anger, not fear.
The people that haven't made up their minds, are generally just curious to some degree or another. It is these people, who are our "targets". If they see a rude OCer in grungy clothes with stubble on his face, they will turn somewhat anti-gun, but if they see a clean shaven, well dressed, polite individual, who holds a door open for them with a smile, and a "it's a beautiful day, isn't it?", they will have no choice but to remember, and tell their friends about, "that polite gentleman with a gun".
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Flintlock
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 05:34 pm |
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Patriot wrote: You may be ascribing the wrong emotion to those people...
I'm not sure I have ever seen someone "scared" by my OC. Instead, I occationally see someone who made up their mind a long time ago, and they are pissed/angry/upset that I would dare to OC.
If the librarian was scared, he would have hid from Saint, and then called 911. He didn't hide. He was pissed that Saint would openly display his freedom, so he confronted him. Again, that is evidence of anger, not fear.
The people that haven't made up their minds, are generally just curious to some degree or another. It is these people, who are our "targets". If they see a rude OCer in grungy clothes with stubble on his face, they will turn somewhat anti-gun, but if they see a clean shaven, well dressed, polite individual, who holds a door open for them with a smile, and a "it's a beautiful day, isn't it?", they will have no choice but to remember, and tell their friends about, "that polite gentleman with a gun".
I agree with both of you, I was just using the verbage that alphamike used. I have never had anything other than funny looks myself, but I live in Alaska and I know that not all locations have the political establishment that we have here. Instead of "scared", I should have said something else like maybe sensitive or misinformed... Regardless, that was not the point that I was trying to make in response to his post.
Desensitization is the key and that will never happen if we conceal in public locations where the media or some other entity might think it to be currently inappropriate to carry firearms.
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t3rmin
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 05:48 pm |
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+1 For you guys absolutely ROCKING, and especially for the Firefly reference on the first page of the thread.
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Patriot
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 05:50 pm |
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Flintlock,
AgreedLast edited on Thu May 1st, 2008 05:51 pm by Patriot
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Sa45auto
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 06:02 pm |
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Patriot wrote:
Pa. Patriot,
As evidenced by this incident, I am obviously all for OC,(BTW, I was one of the first 30 or so members of this site). I OC quite a lot, but hear me out...
Saint won a great victory for us all. The cops were educated, the librarian was educated, the city attourneys were educated, etc.
I'll make this extreme, so you get the point...
If I OC mt AR-15s at the library and in the city parks on a regular basis, ther WILL be political preasure, and laws WILL be created to stop me. If you don't think so, you are wrong
This is sad and wrong, but it is the world we live in.
I will continue to OC, and if I happen to be in a park, or at the library, I will still OC. But if we held weekly OC events in the childrens literature section of the library, some idiot of a mother who happens to be from a wealthy family WILL shut us down.
The idea is to consider the long term goal, and strategically work toward it. Nobody's saying "dont OC", just always consider what you are doing, and possible consecuences. Now that's just plain old good advice for life!
Patriot
I knew I was right about you.
Very well said.
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563
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 08:13 pm |
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Saint wrote: I am returning this afternoon at about 1:45 if anyone else would like to join me. I'll be dressed in jeans, t shirt, serpa holster with Glock 19 and an extra mag on weak side. If you want my cell phone number in case anyone needs to get a hold of me, PM me and I will give it to you.
Any updates on the return visit to the library? I didn't see your mugshot on adasheriff.org, so I am assuming nothing came of your return visit yesterday?
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Pa. Patriot
State Researcher
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 08:53 pm |
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Patriot wrote: Pa. Patriot,
As evidenced by this incident, I am obviously all for OC,(BTW, I was one of the first 30 or so members of this site). I OC quite a lot, but hear me out...
Saint won a great victory for us all. The cops were educated, the librarian was educated, the city attourneys were educated, etc.
I'll make this extreme, so you get the point...
If I OC mt AR-15s at the library and in the city parks on a regular basis, ther WILL be political preasure, and laws WILL be created to stop me. If you don't think so, you are wrong
This is sad and wrong, but it is the world we live in.
I will continue to OC, and if I happen to be in a park, or at the library, I will still OC. But if we held weekly OC events in the childrens literature section of the library, some idiot of a mother who happens to be from a wealthy family WILL shut us down.
The idea is to consider the long term goal, and strategically work toward it. Nobody's saying "dont OC", just always consider what you are doing, and possible consecuences. Now that's just plain old good advice for life!
I agree. particularly with the bold part.
However. Your comments are nothing even similar to alphamike's comments.
Alphamike claimed "OC scares people".
It does not.
Alphamike claimed "OC will lead to restrictions on CC".
It has not and will not.
So while agree with the intelligent and strategic furtherence of OC as a conduit to educate the people about guns and rights, My comments to alphamike stand.
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Saint
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 09:09 pm |
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563 wrote: Saint wrote: I am returning this afternoon at about 1:45 if anyone else would like to join me. I'll be dressed in jeans, t shirt, serpa holster with Glock 19 and an extra mag on weak side. If you want my cell phone number in case anyone needs to get a hold of me, PM me and I will give it to you.
Any updates on the return visit to the library? I didn't see your mugshot on adasheriff.org, so I am assuming nothing came of your return visit yesterday?
As it turns out I ran into a friend of mine on campus and ended up hanging out with her yesterday afternoon so I never made it back over to the library. I will most likely stop by at some point tomorrow or on monday. I'll update whenever that happens.
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Patriot
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 09:20 pm |
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Pa. Patriot, you said...
Alphamike claimed "OC scares people".
It does not.
Alphamike claimed "OC will lead to restrictions on CC".
It has not and will not.
OC usually does not scare people, but to say "it does not" is incorrect. It is probably rare, but YES, sometimes it does scare people.
"It has not and will not"........ If we are careful about how we go about it, OC will probably help our cause, but to say that it "It has not and will not" lead to restrictionctions is pretty out there. I gave you a couple of examples of types of OC that would definately lead to restrictions on our rights.
I don't agree with everything that Alphamike said and I am not defending him, but he brought up a good point for us to consider. Consider it, accept or reject it, and go on with life, but you will be better for having considered it.
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Lthrnck
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 09:20 pm |
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First off... ask the Senator if you guys can maybe make a donation to one of his favorite charities.
Second... I don't think OC'ing actually scares most people. Does it raise their level of concern... YES. Do they actually get scared or PANIC... NO.... as least not in my interactions with them or the Police.
I was detained in the City of Englewood, OH , city park and threatened with arrest for Disorderly Conduct and Inducing Panic. I challenged the officers and asked them where do you see anyone panicing around here.... yes their level of concern is up.... but I have not induced any panic.. they backed down and asked me to CC my weapon. I did so, and took it up with City Council at a later time.
BTW.... after several months , the city also backed down and revised their local ordinance about firearms in the park. You still can not take you BB guns, air soft, sling shots etc into the park... but at least now you can carry you firearm..
OC'ing is just that.. your openly carrying a firearm. People say there's other ways to get our cause visible, just don't get it. OC can only be demostrated one way....BY OPENLY CARRYING your firearm. If I stated that i believed and supported OC, but yet never did it, how would that look. The ant's are hoping we do just that... they want to be able to say.. Why do you need OC, NO ONE DOES IT ANYMORE...!!!!
If they ever get out right to OC, it will only take a wink of the eye before they repeal out privilige to CC... Think about it.
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Gunslinger
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 09:28 pm |
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The one time I CC'ed in Virginia I felt sneaky, deceptive and dirty even though I had OC'ed for a while and had my CHP. It was not a good feeling and certainly did not feel like I was exercising any right at all. I felt more like a criminal. I am no more ashamed of my gun than I am of my Navy uniform but the latter is merely a symbol of our freedom whilst the former the guarantor. If the purpose of carrying is to defend life, then lets not forget where life and the right to defend it both come from: God.
I'm surprised you felt that way. I CC often here, and did in both NH and Va before. I agree to a large extent with Alpha. OC is fine, but there are times and places where CC--assuming you have the permit, is better. You don't need to back down to a bully in a bar, but throwing a drink in his face may not be the most prudent course of action, either. Those anti-gun rabid whiners are, in fact, bullies. They would have us do only what they allow. But, you have to pick your spots to go to the wall. What Saint did was outstanding. Demonstrated clearly his, and our rights, but in a mannered, intelligent way. A lot of smarts for someone as young as he must be.
With respect to uniforms: I always felt when wearing my flightsuit it was a guarantor, as well, of our country's values expressed for anyone to see--and especially those who hate our way of life. A Navy uniform is the same, both symbol and guarantor. The gun is a guarantor of our rights within this country. Concealed or openly carried, it is in fact more than a symbol.
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UTOC-45-44
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 09:43 pm |
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Gunslinger wrote: The one time I CC'ed in Virginia I felt sneaky, deceptive and dirty even though I had OC'ed for a while and had my CHP. It was not a good feeling and certainly did not feel like I was exercising any right at all. I felt more like a criminal. I am no more ashamed of my gun than I am of my Navy uniform but the latter is merely a symbol of our freedom whilst the former the guarantor. If the purpose of carrying is to defend life, then lets not forget where life and the right to defend it both come from: God.
I'm surprised you felt that way. I CC often here, and did in both NH and Va before. I agree to a large extent with Alpha. OC is fine, but there are times and places where CC--assuming you have the permit, is better. You don't need to back down to a bully in a bar, but throwing a drink in his face may not be the most prudent course of action, either. Those anti-gun rabid whiners are, in fact, bullies. They would have us do only what they allow. But, you have to pick your spots to go to the wall. What Saint did was outstanding. Demonstrated clearly his, and our rights, but in a mannered, intelligent way. A lot of smarts for someone as young as he must be.
With respect to uniforms: I always felt when wearing my flightsuit it was a guarantor, as well, of our country's values expressed for anyone to see--and especially those who hate our way of life. A Navy uniform is the same, both symbol and guarantor. The gun is a guarantor of our rights within this country. Concealed or openly carried, it is in fact more than a symbol.
"The one time I CC'ed in Virginia I felt sneaky, deceptive and dirty even though I had OC'ed for a while and had my CHP. It was not a good feeling and certainly did not feel like I was exercising any right at all. I felt more like a criminal."
I'm glad I am not the only one that feels sneaky, deceptive and dirty even though I have my CFP and CCW.
I like the fact that there are "equals" out there
TJ
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Pa. Patriot
State Researcher
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 10:18 pm |
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Patriot wrote: Pa. Patriot, you said...
Alphamike claimed "OC scares people".
It does not.
Alphamike claimed "OC will lead to restrictions on CC".
It has not and will not.
OC usually does not scare people, but to say "it does not" is incorrect. It is probably rare, but YES, sometimes it does scare people.
"It has not and will not"........ If we are careful about how we go about it, OC will probably help our cause, but to say that it "It has not and will not" lead to restrictionctions is pretty out there. I gave you a couple of examples of types of OC that would definately lead to restrictions on our rights.
I don't agree with everything that Alphamike said and I am not defending him, but he brought up a good point for us to consider. Consider it, accept or reject it, and go on with life, but you will be better for having considered it.
I agree with your sentiments but your picking nits now.  His statements were typical blanket statements from an uninformed position. They are false because they are not 100% true. They are not even %50 true. If one person out of 10,000 gets "scared" it does not make the statement "OC scares people" true. It was said in the context of a factual majority. We both know that doesn't coincide with reality.
The only thing alphamike's comment gave to to think about was how unfamiliar he is with, and how little he knows about, OC.
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JB
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 10:31 pm |
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| Congratulations to all involved. I'm considering sending Senator Mackenzie an email thanking him for his support. Do you think it would be a good idea? Between being a lawyer, a senator, and a family man I'm sure he already has too many irons in the fire. I don't want to be a bother to him, but at the same time would like to express my appreciation.
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BobCav
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 11:04 pm |
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Gunslinger wrote: The one time I CC'ed in Virginia I felt sneaky, deceptive and dirty even though I had OC'ed for a while and had my CHP. It was not a good feeling and certainly did not feel like I was exercising any right at all. I felt more like a criminal. I am no more ashamed of my gun than I am of my Navy uniform but the latter is merely a symbol of our freedom whilst the former the guarantor. If the purpose of carrying is to defend life, then lets not forget where life and the right to defend it both come from: God.
I'm surprised you felt that way. I CC often here, and did in both NH and Va before. I agree to a large extent with Alpha. OC is fine, but there are times and places where CC--assuming you have the permit, is better. You don't need to back down to a bully in a bar, but throwing a drink in his face may not be the most prudent course of action, either. Those anti-gun rabid whiners are, in fact, bullies. They would have us do only what they allow. But, you have to pick your spots to go to the wall. What Saint did was outstanding. Demonstrated clearly his, and our rights, but in a mannered, intelligent way. A lot of smarts for someone as young as he must be.
With respect to uniforms: I always felt when wearing my flightsuit it was a guarantor, as well, of our country's values expressed for anyone to see--and especially those who hate our way of life. A Navy uniform is the same, both symbol and guarantor. The gun is a guarantor of our rights within this country. Concealed or openly carried, it is in fact more than a symbol.
Nah, I really just didn't like CC at all. I agree too and can see where it may be appropriate as I stated in my earlier post, but it's just not for me. Pick not only the fight, but the time and place as well and Saint did that perfectly. But I disagree that it scares the majority of people.
As for me, I don't carry at all when I'm drinking and I'm not a bar type anyway. Back in Virginia you can't CC in a place that serves alcohol, can only OC and then can't be intoxicated. Better off just not carrying if you're going to drink and as was mentioned in another thread, I'll bet a LOT of CC'ers still carry in bars even when drinking.
Gunslinger, thanks for your service too. I feel a uniform is the symbol OF the guarantor, that being the person wearing it. For without the person inside, it is just cloth. But when worn it becomes so much more. As it is with our flag. To some it's just brightly colored strips of clothsymbolizing our nation, but to those of us who have worn our nations colors, it's becomes so much more.
I hope to remain a guarantor even now that I have retired my uniform and even if I were to be disarmed.
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Patriot
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 11:36 pm |
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OK Pa Patriot,
I'll stop picking nits
Last edited on Thu May 1st, 2008 11:37 pm by Patriot
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