| Author | Post |
|---|
Alwayspacking
Activist Member
|
Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 05:15 pm |
|
Sir. I really am saying this with all due respect. After I read the story I can not but help to think about this situation all day long, and some points that you brought out really bothers me. First I was not there so I do not know the entire situation you faced, but I myself have looked down the barrel of a few guns in my life so I know the feeling of being a inch away from possible death. I am truly sorry you had to face that ( not knowing it was a BB gun) Now here is what bothers me about your story. I know you used your judgment in the situation, and it was a very good one. The way this ended is ideal for everyone and everyone's family, and things it could have gotten very ugly for both of you..
All I keep asking myself time and time again is why would you not shoot this guy? I realize at one point you could do nothing at all when the gun is pointed at you, (as you sat in your car at gun point) and I realize from reading this that it was a time where lethal force would not have been justified, when he placed the gun in his pants, but between those times periods there was a time where someone yourself, or your friends was in danger of being shot. In the time his gun was not pointed at you, and you could have drawn your weapon and fired on this guy? What if he was really bent on killing someone? You had a opportunity to shot him and did not take it, that could have lead to someone or yourself being killed.
Why do you carry a gun? I am not saying this to offend you, but I am serious. Why do you carry a gun? Is it to be cool, to be part of a OC movement, or do you carry not to become a victim and be killed?
What will it take for you to use your weapon? You should just leave it at home next time. NOW I do not want to get you upset, I do not want to start a argument with you over this, but I am being serious. Sir, I carry to give myself a chance to defend myself if a threat comes to me that could kill me or my love ones. From what I read here there was a threat with a gun pointed at you, (lets say I was in your shoes). Drunk or not, a guy pointing a gun at me, threaten me and my friends, would be shot. I do not know if he would be crazy enough to shoot me or not, and I will not worry about the back stop if I am looking down a barrel of a gun, I am thinking about staying alive…. MAN could you pull the trigger on someone if you had to? What more would a guy have to do to you in order for you to shoot him? Because the next thing to having a gun pointed at you is pulling the trigger.
I really just do not understand, a stranger points a gun at you, you are armed, and do nothing….
The next time someone points a gun at you, drunk or not they may just shoot you, you are lucky this guy had a BB gun and was bluffing, but if he had an intent to kill you with a real gun, and gave you an opportunity to fire first and you did not take it. You would be dead.
I really wish I could praise you for your action, but I am thinking "what if" here. What if he did have a real gun and wanted to kill someone? You would have been dead). Do not get me wrong is good everything worked out for you and him. I keep thinking to myself, "I guess I had to have been there to see what you saw in the situation". But I keep going to the point a guy had you at gun point. (not every one bluffs with a gun)
If it were me, his little game would have cost him his life.
|
Alwayspacking
Activist Member
|
Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 05:35 pm |
|
| ALSO: accidents happen. If he did have a real gun, and you figured he would not shoot anyone, accidents happen and he could have fired accidentally on someone, I would have shot him at least to prevent that from happening.
|
Saint
Regular Member
| Joined: | Wed Jul 18th, 2007 |
| Location: | Eagle, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 287 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 06:46 pm |
|
Alwayspacking wrote: Sir. I really am saying this with all due respect. After I read the story I can not but help to think about this situation all day long, and some points that you brought out really bothers me. First I was not there so I do not know the entire situation you faced, but I myself have looked down the barrel of a few guns in my life so I know the feeling of being a inch away from possible death. I am truly sorry you had to face that ( not knowing it was a BB gun) Now here is what bothers me about your story. I know you used your judgment in the situation, and it was a very good one. The way this ended is ideal for everyone and everyone's family, and things it could have gotten very ugly for both of you..
All I keep asking myself time and time again is why would you not shoot this guy? I realize at one point you could do nothing at all when the gun is pointed at you, (as you sat in your car at gun point) and I realize from reading this that it was a time where lethal force would not have been justified, when he placed the gun in his pants, but between those times periods there was a time where someone yourself, or your friends was in danger of being shot. In the time his gun was not pointed at you, and you could have drawn your weapon and fired on this guy? What if he was really bent on killing someone? You had a opportunity to shot him and did not take it, that could have lead to someone or yourself being killed.
Why do you carry a gun? I am not saying this to offend you, but I am serious. Why do you carry a gun? Is it to be cool, to be part of a OC movement, or do you carry not to become a victim and be killed?
What will it take for you to use your weapon? You should just leave it at home next time. NOW I do not want to get you upset, I do not want to start a argument with you over this, but I am being serious. Sir, I carry to give myself a chance to defend myself if a threat comes to me that could kill me or my love ones. From what I read here there was a threat with a gun pointed at you, (lets say I was in your shoes). Drunk or not, a guy pointing a gun at me, threaten me and my friends, would be shot. I do not know if he would be crazy enough to shoot me or not, and I will not worry about the back stop if I am looking down a barrel of a gun, I am thinking about staying alive…. MAN could you pull the trigger on someone if you had to? What more would a guy have to do to you in order for you to shoot him? Because the next thing to having a gun pointed at you is pulling the trigger.
I really just do not understand, a stranger points a gun at you, you are armed, and do nothing….
The next time someone points a gun at you, drunk or not they may just shoot you, you are lucky this guy had a BB gun and was bluffing, but if he had an intent to kill you with a real gun, and gave you an opportunity to fire first and you did not take it. You would be dead.
I really wish I could praise you for your action, but I am thinking "what if" here. What if he did have a real gun and wanted to kill someone? You would have been dead). Do not get me wrong is good everything worked out for you and him. I keep thinking to myself, "I guess I had to have been there to see what you saw in the situation". But I keep going to the point a guy had you at gun point. (not every one bluffs with a gun)
If it were me, his little game would have cost him his life.
I am unsure how I can explain this more clearly than I have in my last posts. My decision not to shoot was based on real-time assessment of the situation.
When he first pointed the gun at me I was at a HUGE tactical disadvantage. I had to get out of the car and into a better position and had to do it without getting him angry enough to fire.
By the time I got to an acceptable tactical position, he was out of his truck and moving around the front of my car towards me. I knew that the backdrop behind him at that point had at least 6 people who would be behind my target and could potentially receive a stray bullet.
When my friends came up at the end, the positioning was once again not good for taking a shot. He was standing about 3 feet away from me and my other friend was directly behind him. I had to wait until my firing lines were clear before I was going to be willing to take the shot.
By the time the tactical conditions were right (entire thing lasted maybe 2 and a half mins) my shooting was no longer necessary.
Everyone on here can make what ever judgments about me that they wish. They can say that I shouldn't be carrying a gun because I didn't use it. I think that is foolish.
I was perfectly willing to shoot him if I thought it the right thing to do. My tactical analysis of the situation coupled with several other factors made me decide not to start shooting.
The police agreed with my actions. Everyone who was up at Table Rock agreed with my actions and told me they were glad I didn't shoot.
I caution anyone about speaking about what I should have done or whether or not I should even be carrying a weapon. Until you have been in that situation you can't possibly know how to react.
|
Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
|
Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 07:08 pm |
|
'Ain't no doubt in my military mind that 'some yahoo points a gun barrel of any sort at me... He/She is gonna get lit up right then. There will be no discussion. 
|
Alwayspacking
Activist Member
|
Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 08:04 pm |
|
Ok understand you did not have a safe shot and did not take it, cool.
It really makes me feel better that you are able to pull the trigger if needed to. It's good that you do care for others. Also being that I was not there, I am not sure if you ever had time to draw and fire, without him firing on you also.
I really did not mean to come off so hard (if i did) but I just really hate to see innocent people die because of some guy that is just down right evil. (had he been)
Yes, the very best outcome is the one you had. I really do not want anyone to be shot, It's very good you did not have to fire.
I guess I would have just taken the risk myself. I do not think at such a close range I could miss center mass, with two single shots.
I was not there so I could never completely understand you situation. Thanks for sharing, it really makes me see somethings I have to change in the way I carry.
From now on in my car, my gun will always stay ready.
Last edited on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 08:05 pm by Alwayspacking
|
IndianaBoy79
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Dec 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Eagle, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 477 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 08:12 pm |
|
Hindsight is always 20/20. It's a great idea to take a second look after things are all over so that you can better prepare for next time. But all of this talk about what each of us would do if it had been us is silly; we have no clue what we would have done and we weren't able to assess the situation while it was happening.
I agree with everyone, I hope my training would kick in and I would make the proper decision. Who of us can say that's not what happened with Saint?
Saint, I for one am very glad that you don't have to deal with the emotional consequenses of taking a human life. For those out there who think it would be easy to kill, I suggest reading the book "On Killing," by Dave Grossman. Great book on what to expect in your own mind after having a legal kill.
|
Alwayspacking
Activist Member
|
Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 08:46 pm |
|
It's just can't see myself not take a shot at a guy with a gun that has threatens to kill me or my family if he gave me the opportunity to.
I have grown cold to people that are evil. In fact there are a few people that I met here in Qatar that will be (if not already) beheaded, some of them are getting their hands cut off and I do not feel the least bit sorry for them because they did wrong. They took a risk and got caught.
If a guy wants to kill me or my family, and he is killed because I stood up for my family, I can't see myself feeling sorry for him. But If someone innocent dies, I am always devastated and I really think about them from time to time, I have prayed for the family of people that have died. Example the recent plane crash in Madrid, I have prayed for these people's family, and I am sadden by this crash.
I have a strong deep sincere compassion for the innocent, I have no sympathy for the evil.
I do think if I ever had to use my weapon on someone it would effect me, but I do not think i will feel sorry for the guy that tired to kill me.
|
IndianaBoy79
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Dec 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Eagle, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 477 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 12:20 am |
|
I think we're on the same page here, but we're expressing ourselves differently.
What I'm speaking about isn't "feeling sorry" for the bad guy or the men you speak of who are getting beheaded. If you are the one actually swinging the ax, compared to someone just watching the action, you'll be affected by it more. The more participation you have in a kill, the more "personal" the kill becomes (determined by how close you are to them, can you see his face, ect) then the more it will effect how you think about it afterwards. Most people would feel guilty, even KNOWING they did the right thing. Knowing what will happen to your mind will help you deal with that guilt, instead of wondering "What is wrong with me? I shouldn't feel guilty."
I would HOPE I wouldn't feel guilty after a morally justified kill, but from what I've studied, it's more than likely that I will feel remorse, shame, and a wave of other feelings. My training involves getting myself physically ready, AND mentally prepared for the consequenses. Again, check out "On Killing," by Dave Grossman.
|
boom
Regular Member
| Joined: | Wed Jun 18th, 2008 |
| Location: | North, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 55 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 01:11 am |
|
GreenDrake wrote: Good to go Saint, glad you had the composure the spare a life, taking one is not something anyone wants to have to do.
http://www.idcourts.us
I have been searching co-workers, friends, etc. and know a lot more about their past thanks to that. I even check up on neighbors with that now. Woudathunkit.
+1... keep in mind people, that just because there is a court case does not mean you were guilty...... also where it says arresting officer, that does not always mean the person was arrested. It may just be the officer who wrote the ticket in many cases. (quote edited)
|
Task Force 16
Campaign Veteran
|
Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 06:48 am |
|
I commend you sir for your ability to assess the situation while under stress. The fact is you had to assess and re-asses this situation repeatedly as it changed, and make dicisions according to your assesments throughout this ordeal. That says allot about your mental capabilities under pressure. And I'm sure that with every dicision you made, that there had to be somewhere in the back of you mind, something telling you that you might be making the wrong choice each time. Fortunately, it all came out OK in the end, with no injuries to anyone, aside from the BG's skint head. He's lucky he's still alive.
There's anotehr aspect to this event and it's outcome that I don't think anyone has thought of. Saint's choice NOT to pull the trigger goes against all the anti-gunners predictions that allowing citizens to be armed would "turn the country into the WILD WILD West again". There was no shootout, that night, even though there easily could have been.
Saint, I don't care what your mamma says about ya, you have grown up.
|
Alwayspacking
Activist Member
|
Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 10:30 am |
|
| Also I would say that fate played a big role in his survival. The position of the bystanders, the calm mind of Saint, he not being too aggressive, the girl with saint.. it all help him live another day.
|
GoneFromForum
Guest
| Joined: | |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 06:03 pm |
|
Also, Need I remind all the "fill 'im with lead" posters here: If you are in a situation where you need to shoot; ALL of these posts you are making will probably be dug up by the Prosecutor and used against you in your trial on 2nd degree manslaughter.
Kudos Saint, I believe you did well, and achieved the best possible outcome.
|
cccook
Founder's Club Member
| Joined: | Wed Aug 6th, 2008 |
| Location: | DFW, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 415 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 06:09 pm |
|
Task Force 16 wrote: Saint's choice NOT to pull the trigger goes against all the anti-gunners predictions that allowing citizens to be armed would "turn the country into the WILD WILD West again".
Amen. From a 2a, gun rights, CC, OC activist standpoint this incident serves us well.
Saint, I commend you for your keen situational awareness and cool actions also for your composure after the event. You are a good representative for the cause and a great American. Well done. Great outcome.
Also I hope that you (or any of us) never have to find out if we will pull the trigger "next time."
Last edited on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 06:12 pm by cccook
|
Alwayspacking
Activist Member
|
Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 06:50 pm |
|
GnGKlinger wrote: Also, Need I remind all the "fill 'im with lead" posters here: If you are in a situation where you need to shoot; ALL of these posts you are making will probably be dug up by the Prosecutor and used against you in your trial on 2nd degree manslaughter.
Kudos Saint, I believe you did well, and achieved the best possible outcome.
I know I have been thinking about that also, even with my every post. So if I ever have to use my weapon (which I hope I never have to) I hope It will be a clear cut and dry case of SD.
I not once in any of my 400+ post said anything showing the intent of a cold hard killer, or any ill intent, or being blood thirsty. But I do believe in not being a victim of a violent crime, so I can't re-track anything I have ever said on any site.
If a man points a gun at me, then I would hope to fire before he shots me first. That's simple survival and SD. I am sure a cop would do the same. I hate to sound as a stubborn person but, I want myself and my family to live a long time together and not die by the hands of a wacko, and I will do my best to stay on this side of the ground.
|
Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
|
Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 07:44 pm |
|
Alwayspacking wrote: GnGKlinger wrote: Also, Need I remind all the "fill 'im with lead" posters here: If you are in a situation where you need to shoot; ALL of these posts you are making will probably be dug up by the Prosecutor and used against you in your trial on 2nd degree manslaughter.
Kudos Saint, I believe you did well, and achieved the best possible outcome.
I know I have been thinking about that also, even with my every post. So if I ever have to use my weapon (which I hope I never have to) I hope It will be a clear cut and dry case of SD.
I not once in any of my 400+ post said anything showing the intent of a cold hard killer, or any ill intent, or being blood thirsty. But I do believe in not being a victim of a violent crime, so I can't re-track anything I have ever said on any site.
If a man points a gun at me, then I would hope to fire before he shots me first. That's simple survival and SD. I am sure a cop would do the same. I hate to sound as a stubborn person but, I want myself and my family to live a long time together and not die by the hands of a wacko, and I will do my best to stay on this side of the ground.
+10 Assess obvious threat = Immediate reaction to counter/nullify threat. If I was concerned about being prosecuted for self defense... I'd leave my pistol home. Any residual doubt may prompt that split second of hesitation that could cost me my life or someone elses. Intellectual evaluation at that point can get'cha killed. It's not an academic exercise. I've shot 'people' before... who were armed and 'in the act...' They all don't carry BB pistols. I have a Walther CP 99 BB pistol that... in low light is a dead ringer for a 'real gun'. I would never hesitate.Last edited on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 07:45 pm by Sonora Rebel
|
Tomahawk
Regular Member
|
Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 09:40 pm |
|
| Anyone who continues to criticize you after 4 pages of you explaining yourself is beating a dead horse at this point, Saint. Everbody's an expert but only you were on the spot that night. Good job at keeping a cool head.
|
GoneFromForum
Guest
| Joined: | |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 09:55 pm |
|
Sonora Rebel wrote: Alwayspacking wrote:
I know I have been thinking about that also, even with my every post. So if I ever have to use my weapon (which I hope I never have to) I hope It will be a clear cut and dry case of SD.
I not once in any of my 400+ post said anything showing the intent of a cold hard killer, or any ill intent, or being blood thirsty. But I do believe in not being a victim of a violent crime, so I can't re-track anything I have ever said on any site.
If a man points a gun at me, then I would hope to fire before he shots me first. That's simple survival and SD. I am sure a cop would do the same. I hate to sound as a stubborn person but, I want myself and my family to live a long time together and not die by the hands of a wacko, and I will do my best to stay on this side of the ground.
+10 Assess obvious threat = Immediate reaction to counter/nullify threat. If I was concerned about being prosecuted for self defense... I'd leave my pistol home. Any residual doubt may prompt that split second of hesitation that could cost me my life or someone elses. Intellectual evaluation at that point can get'cha killed. It's not an academic exercise. I've shot 'people' before... who were armed and 'in the act...' They all don't carry BB pistols. I have a Walther CP 99 BB pistol that... in low light is a dead ringer for a 'real gun'. I would never hesitate.
I totally agree with you both, but the anti-gun freak PA will who is looking for anything will be on the lookout for what will make you hang. they arent looking for what is right or wrong; Theyre looking to WIN and advance their career. At the price of putting you behind bars, even for a completely justified SD case.
What good are you if youve survived, only to be in prison for years (or months, waiting for trial) because the PA says your a hot headed, gun totin, looking for trouble type that is best left there.
How is your family gonna eat then?
.
.
.
.
yes, hope for a clear, cut & dry case, always. But even then, you could get nailed to the wall in the courts, and still be as good as dead to your loved ones.
Last edited on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 09:56 pm by
|
Hubby_MC
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 21st, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 52 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 11:06 pm |
|
This is NOT another critique....... just an observation! you made Gunwatch!
http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2008/08/gun-rights-on-trial-homeowner-suddenly.html
I am no fan of Dennis Mansfield but here you are again on this blog...........
http://www.dennismansfield.com/business/2008/08/open-carry-here.html
Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 12:22 am by Hubby_MC
|
BrianEMT
Regular Member
| Joined: | Wed Dec 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Boise, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 259 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 12:05 am |
|
Hubby_MC wrote: This is NOT another critique....... just an observation! you made Gunwatch!
http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2008/08/gun-rights-on-trial-homeowner-suddenly.html
Now this is interesting...
Boise Police spokesman Charles McClure said. The other man involved in the confrontation displayed his handgun legally and police determined he was fully within his rights to defend himself at the time, McClure said.
I'm not sure if that was in other articles, now the extend of this statement is always up for questioning. Does that apply to merely drawing the gun, or does it literally mean "dropping him like a sack of potatoes" as some would say?
|
Hubby_MC
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 21st, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 52 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 12:12 am |
|
I will explain further in a PM for ya!
|
Current time is 12:41 pm | Page:   1 2 3 4 5 6 7   |
|
|
|
