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gravedigger
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| Joined: | Sun Jul 20th, 2008 |
| Location: | California USA |
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 01:07 am |
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Well, this is all very interesting.
First, I am glad neither you nor your friends were harmed or killed.
As for the drunk inbred genetic public school educated mutant hillbilly in the pickup, I really couldn't care less what happened or didn't happen to him.
I am bothered by your hessitation to shoot. At first you were not in a position to draw your weapon, but certainly, a gun of unknown potential being pointed at MY face would have immediately removed any doubt I had about my life being in iminent danger, and I'd make damned sure he never got a second chance to point that gun at me.
Then there is the issue of "counseling." I just flat out do not understand that. It isn't as if you were reaching for your cellular phone to be the fifth caller to a radio station that was giving away a free Bible study course and your watch band accidentally pulled the trigger of your holstered weapon thereby killing dear old Mrs. Magee, the well-known and respected community church lady who was carry brownies from the grocery store to the church social to raise money for orphaned kittens. You were dealing with an intoxicated derranged obviously uncivilized anti-social goober who had access to a vehicle and a gun, who was displaying OBVIOUS lack of self-control, who was demonstrably aggressive and beligerant, and who, at any time, could have turned the gun or the pickup truck on YOU, your friends or the other bystanders.
Yet, some would say that they'd be receiving counseling ... to deal with the knowledge that they had taken a human life? I'm sorry, but I'd lose more sleep over misplacing my favorite ball point pen than I would over dropping that guy, in that situation, on that night, in that parking lot. If I ran over a small rabbit who couldn't cross the road fast enough and my efforts to avoid hitting it failed, I would feel a bit of remorse over the waste of a potentially beautiful life of an innocent creature, but if I step on a cockroach in my kitchen, it is only on my mind for as long as it takes to scrape the goo from the sole of my shoe.
Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 01:13 am by gravedigger
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IndianaBoy79
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| Location: | Eagle, Idaho USA |
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:15 am |
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gravedigger wrote: Yet, some would say that they'd be receiving counseling ... to deal with the knowledge that they had taken a human life? I'm sorry, but I'd lose more sleep over misplacing my favorite ball point pen than I would over dropping that guy, in that situation, on that night, in that parking lot. If I ran over a small rabbit who couldn't cross the road fast enough and my efforts to avoid hitting it failed, I would feel a bit of remorse over the waste of a potentially beautiful life of an innocent creature, but if I step on a cockroach in my kitchen, it is only on my mind for as long as it takes to scrape the goo from the sole of my shoe.
Not enough room to get into a deep conversation on this one, but I agree with you, that's how I'd WANT to feel about the situation. I don't want to feel sorry for the bad guy at all. The scientific evidence shows otherwise though. There are certain inhibitions in your brain that make it difficult to take another life. Hunters feel it when they go on their first hunt and have their first kill. Not as intense, but similar. The studies I read all involved trained solders and police officers who were TRAINED to take a life and even ordered to do so. If a person with that level of experience and training has been proven to have emotional consequenses, then why do you assume you will be immune? Again, I don't want to feel sorry for him, and logically, I shouldn't. But the stats show I probably will, and I'd rather understand what my brain and emotions would go through than just assume I'm a tough guy and it won't effect me.
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Alwayspacking
Activist Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 06:30 am |
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GnGKlinger wrote: I totally agree with you both, but the anti-gun freak PA will who is looking for anything will be on the lookout for what will make you hang. they arent looking for what is right or wrong; Theyre looking to WIN and advance their career. At the price of putting you behind bars, even for a completely justified SD case.
What good are you if youve survived, only to be in prison for years (or months, waiting for trial) because the PA says your a hot headed, gun totin, looking for trouble type that is best left there.
How is your family gonna eat then?
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yes, hope for a clear, cut & dry case, always. But even then, you could get nailed to the wall in the courts, and still be as good as dead to your loved ones.
This is something I could never understand. Years ago I thought if I ever had to use lethal force because someone was trying to kill me, the PA/DA would just look for a reason to lock me up, it is really sad.
Because I know I risk going to jail this is what I do not to give fuel to the PA.
I do not go to any bad area of a city unless I must go there.
I do not have any offensive tattoos ( gun related or what-not)
I do not carry more rounds than the cops
I keep my attitude in check
I do not commit crimes
I mind my own business, if I am in amy confrontation it is because someone brought it to me unprovoked, ( that I know of).
I do sometimes go for a bike ride or walk at night, that could be a problem, ( PD- "he was out looking for trouble)" But I can't and wont chance my life because I fear some PA will try to hang me.
On my way to work today I was thinking, There are come cases where a guy may have a gun out and I not feel the need to shoot him, but in this case where he pointed the gun at a guys face point blank range, that is a not something he will do twice. Have you ever watched videos on liveleaks? Or on Most Shocking videos. I am talking about real live videos, not scripted, and no acting. These thugs on the streets will shoot you for no reason, or just for the thrill of it.
This outcome was GOLDEN, Platinum I do not argue that fact, but I keep thinking what would he do next time this happens, when they guy has a real gun, and will shoot? Saint told me he would have fired his gun, but did not have a good shot, that's really what i wanted to here because I want to know he would do what it takes to stay alive.
When I read this topic, I went through a wide range of emotions until i could get back and get it all off my chest. I placed myself in his shoes in my mind because this could have happened to any of us.
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gravedigger
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| Joined: | Sun Jul 20th, 2008 |
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 07:26 am |
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IndianaBoy79 wrote: gravedigger wrote: if I step on a cockroach in my kitchen, it is only on my mind for as long as it takes to scrape the goo from the sole of my shoe.
Not enough room to get into a deep conversation on this one, but I agree with you, that's how I'd WANT to feel about the situation. ... I'd rather understand what my brain and emotions would go through than just assume I'm a tough guy and it won't effect me.
Nothing "tough guy" about it. Just matter-of-fact reality. A year ago, a very beautiful bird flew into one of my my sliding glass doors by my pool. I heard the noise and went out to discover an otherwise fully functional bird with a broken neck. It was trying to fly away, but it's head was bobbing around seemingly unconnected except for the bird's apparent ability to still operate it's legs and wings and such. It wasn't just randomly flapping either. It looked like it could actually fly away, if only it could get it's head vertical.
I knew that there was nothing I could do for the bird, and I knew I had the sad task of ending it's life. I said a small prayer for the bird's soul (some people don't believe birds and animals have souls, but they've never owned a cat or a dog.) I wrapped the bird in a towel and took up the slack to minimize it's ability to struggle, and submerged the bird slowly into a bucket of room temperature tap water, where I held it until it stopped moving.
Yes, taking that bird's life affected me, because the bird did nothing wrong to have it's life ended so abruptly. It was no threat to me. But the source of my sadness was not taking a life. It was taking an INNOCENT life of one of God's creatures.
I cannot imagine myself experiencing remorse at having shot some pathetic drunken raving brain-dead anti-social maniac in self-defense who just pointed a gun at my face. I cannot imagine feeling any remorse whatsoever.
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marshaul
Activist Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 08:40 am |
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Saint wrote:
I am unsure how I can explain this more clearly than I have in my last posts. My decision not to shoot was based on real-time assessment of the situation.
When he first pointed the gun at me I was at a HUGE tactical disadvantage. I had to get out of the car and into a better position and had to do it without getting him angry enough to fire.
By the time I got to an acceptable tactical position, he was out of his truck and moving around the front of my car towards me. I knew that the backdrop behind him at that point had at least 6 people who would be behind my target and could potentially receive a stray bullet.
When my friends came up at the end, the positioning was once again not good for taking a shot. He was standing about 3 feet away from me and my other friend was directly behind him. I had to wait until my firing lines were clear before I was going to be willing to take the shot.
By the time the tactical conditions were right (entire thing lasted maybe 2 and a half mins) my shooting was no longer necessary.
Everyone on here can make what ever judgments about me that they wish. They can say that I shouldn't be carrying a gun because I didn't use it. I think that is foolish.
I was perfectly willing to shoot him if I thought it the right thing to do. My tactical analysis of the situation coupled with several other factors made me decide not to start shooting.
The police agreed with my actions. Everyone who was up at Table Rock agreed with my actions and told me they were glad I didn't shoot.
I caution anyone about speaking about what I should have done or whether or not I should even be carrying a weapon. Until you have been in that situation you can't possibly know how to react.
I think we can all learn something from this experience. I, for one, would hope to show the same maturity, judgement, and ultimately restraint, as this man did.
I really do get the feeling there are a few posters in this thread who are a bit more "trigger happy" (I hate to use that term) than I would hope myself to be.
If anything, I worry that, in such a circumstance as having a gun pointed at me, I would simply be so afraid that I would not think to react any other way than with lethal force. But, I truly hope that should such a situation ever arise, I could remain calm enough to analyze the situation, and in control enough to diffuse the situation without taking any life.
As for the risk of being shot, none of us were there. In hindsight, it's safe to say there was no "need" for any shots to be fired. So, who are we to say that this man's tactical analysis lead him to the wrong conclusion? On the contrary, it lead to the best possible resolution of a bad situation. Instead of criticizing the man for not (unnecessarily) killing the "drunk inbred genetic public school educated mutant hillbilly", we should all pray that in the event of such a potentially life-destroying assault, we might be so lucky as to not be forced into taking a life, or to only face an airsoft gun instead of a .45.Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 08:44 am by marshaul
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rodbender
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| Joined: | Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Elgin, Texas USA |
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 09:30 am |
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| You showed a lot more restraint than I would have. When someone points a gun at me, talking is DONE.
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dyver1
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 12:07 pm |
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Well Done Saint!!!! 
You are getting a lot of flack from others here about not shooting the guy, but let me enter my $.02 here.
One of the things I have learned from many years of running fire and rescue and also working in the intel community is that NO 2 situations are ever the same. The best way to deal with any stressful situation is to take stock of the situation and determine the best course of action to deal with the situation at hand.
You were clearly caught in a difficult situation with your weapon NOT readily available to you without risking the perp firing on you or your friends before you could have even cleared the leather.
Also when dealing with someone who is clearly impaired, slow deliberate non-threatening moves are the best course of action. You are to be commended for your cool head and diffusing the situation with no loss of life.
Let me make myself clear here, there are times when a reactive draw and fire is clearly the best response, but in this case, given the facts as Saint described them, he took the best course of action and all lived to walk away.
The fact that you said in one of your other posts that you learned something from this encounter and might do some things differently if this were to happen again is great. In the fire service, we ALWAYS criitique our response after every call, no matter how well it went. There is always something to be learned from this type of experience, those who keep an open mind and learn from the experience are the ones who become the best.
One more comment, someone earlier asked about why the PD disarmed Saint. In my opinion, for the safety of all concerned in a tense situation, this was clearly justified. If I had been there, I would have probably volunteered my weapon to the PD to hold on site until all was done, after I had cleared it of course. The after effects of an adrenaline rush like Saint and the others on the scene must have felt can do strange things to people, trust me, I have seen it. 
Be safe out there.
Paul
Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 12:14 pm by dyver1
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Tomahawk
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 01:30 pm |
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gravedigger wrote: I wrapped the bird in a towel and took up the slack to minimize it's ability to struggle, and submerged the bird slowly into a bucket of room temperature tap water, where I held it until it stopped moving.
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Alwayspacking
Activist Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 01:52 pm |
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Tomahawk wrote: gravedigger wrote: I wrapped the bird in a towel and took up the slack to minimize it's ability to struggle, and submerged the bird slowly into a bucket of room temperature tap water, where I held it until it stopped moving.
 YEAH
Maybe try a ax next time, quick and painless
Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 01:57 pm by Alwayspacking
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Alwayspacking
Activist Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 02:18 pm |
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marshaul wrote:
I really do get the feeling there are a few posters in this thread who are a bit more "trigger happy" (I hate to use that term) than I would hope myself to be.
If anything, I worry that, in such a circumstance as having a gun pointed at me, I would simply be so afraid that I would not think to react any other way than with lethal force. But, I truly hope that should such a situation ever arise, I could remain calm enough to analyze the situation, and in control enough to diffuse the situation without taking any life.
As for the risk of being shot, none of us were there. In hindsight, it's safe to say there was no "need" for any shots to be fired. So, who are we to say that this man's tactical analysis lead him to the wrong conclusion? On the contrary, it lead to the best possible resolution of a bad situation. Instead of criticizing the man for not (unnecessarily) killing the "drunk inbred genetic public school educated mutant hillbilly", we should all pray that in the event of such a potentially life-destroying assault, we might be so lucky as to not be forced into taking a life, or to only face an airsoft gun instead of a .45.
I would just like to clear something here
I understand I am one who said he should have shot this guy when he had the chance yes. I was not there so I can only use my imagination here in this case, and in my mind I see a guy that is showing he means serious business waving a gun and threatening people. But Saint could have seen something else in his demeanor that showed a bluff or something.
I also said earlier that at the point where he was pointing the gun at Saint or his friend he should have fired, but he waited and then the guy started talking to a girl there the threat was not as serious as it was when looking down the business end of a gun. So I say lethal force is not warranted any longer, and the following action he took was very mush correct accept getting close enough to take his gun away. (at least while he is still standing.) So to make myself understood more so, then I will try not bother anyone anymore, there was only a short time frame where lethal force should have been taken, that is when the gun was being pointed.
But let me add this, If after the BG pointed the gun at Saint friends.. if the wacko would have turned it back on Saint and fired ( speaking as if it were a real gun because no one knew it was a BB gun) what would people say then? They would have said why did he not shoot the guy the first time he pointed the gun at him.
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BrianEMT
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 02:24 pm |
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gravedigger wrote:...submerged the bird slowly into a bucket of room temperature tap water, where I held it until it stopped moving.
Doesn't sound like its life ended "abruptly". It would have probably been better off dying on its own without a painful drowning. In such a case why wouldn't you have just shot it?
That just seems wrong to me. Even more wrong than opening fire on a gun-wielding suspect. 
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Peacemaker
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 03:52 pm |
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gravedigger wrote: ...I wrapped the bird in a towel and took up the slack to minimize it's ability to struggle, and submerged the bird slowly into a bucket of room temperature tap water, where I held it until it stopped moving....
Um, how about grabbing its neck and swinging it around until fully snapped. That's a VERY quick way to take a chicken before plucking and cooking it. In general, when finding a humane way to take an animal you must use a method that is very quick. Otherwise the poor thing will suffer. This was a bird, not a lobster!
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Domandred
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 04:59 pm |
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Um, how about grabbing its neck and swinging it around until fully snapped.
Not intending to derail the thread but I got a funny story about that. Neighborhood stray cat that we feed decided to return the favor one day and dropped a pigeon on the front door step. I was outside at the time so I saw her bringing the bird up. Bird wasn't dead yet but was going to be soon so I decided to put it out of it's misery.
Walked up, grabbed the bird by the head spun it without thinking...just like I do all the pheasants and chukar when I'm hunting.
Wife opens the front door just as this pigeon is getting it's neck wrung....
Poor wife hadn't ever seen that...yea she freaked...
Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:00 pm by Domandred
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Gunslinger
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:39 pm |
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gravedigger wrote: IndianaBoy79 wrote: gravedigger wrote: if I step on a cockroach in my kitchen, it is only on my mind for as long as it takes to scrape the goo from the sole of my shoe.
Not enough room to get into a deep conversation on this one, but I agree with you, that's how I'd WANT to feel about the situation. ... I'd rather understand what my brain and emotions would go through than just assume I'm a tough guy and it won't effect me.
Nothing "tough guy" about it. Just matter-of-fact reality. A year ago, a very beautiful bird flew into one of my my sliding glass doors by my pool. I heard the noise and went out to discover an otherwise fully functional bird with a broken neck. It was trying to fly away, but it's head was bobbing around seemingly unconnected except for the bird's apparent ability to still operate it's legs and wings and such. It wasn't just randomly flapping either. It looked like it could actually fly away, if only it could get it's head vertical.
I knew that there was nothing I could do for the bird, and I knew I had the sad task of ending it's life. I said a small prayer for the bird's soul (some people don't believe birds and animals have souls, but they've never owned a cat or a dog.) I wrapped the bird in a towel and took up the slack to minimize it's ability to struggle, and submerged the bird slowly into a bucket of room temperature tap water, where I held it until it stopped moving.
Yes, taking that bird's life affected me, because the bird did nothing wrong to have it's life ended so abruptly. It was no threat to me. But the source of my sadness was not taking a life. It was taking an INNOCENT life of one of God's creatures.
I cannot imagine myself experiencing remorse at having shot some pathetic drunken raving brain-dead anti-social maniac in self-defense who just pointed a gun at my face. I cannot imagine feeling any remorse whatsoever.
I agree with you on both points.
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IdahoCorsair
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:54 pm |
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While I was/am critical of Saints lack of action in a certain respect he has learned from this situation, and is taking steps to be more prepared in case there is a next time (I know him personally).
Also, consider this: If you all who carry a gun full time haven't read "On Killing" by Dave Grossman, you should.
It is a MUST for any person who carries a gun. There is a natural very strong urge in the human psyche to not kill another human. Even in warfare when the Nazis were shooting at WWII troops, the number of soliders who voluntarily would shoot back was shockingly (and sickeningly) low. I want to say roughly 50% of WWII soldiers voluntarily shot back if I remember correctly... and this is knowing the enemy is evil, and this is while under direct attack! Many would rather die than shoot back, risking taking a human life!!!  Others just made sure they shot, but over the heads of the enemy, so they could save face with their buddies, but also so they didn't have to kill.
Just to help put in perspective that what Saint did (or didn't do) was largely 'natural' and 'just human.'
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Alwayspacking
Activist Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 06:26 pm |
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| you are a good man, Please do not take anything i said the wrong way . It all worked out for everyone. Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 06:27 pm by Alwayspacking
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FiremanJoe
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 12:17 am |
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Hey from what all I read, I think Saint would make a find good LEO!!! Has sensible street sense, not gung ho, used calm decision making to protect others from a idiot...
Great Job Saint!!
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Dustin
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Sep 9th, 2008 03:14 pm |
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Ohio Patriot wrote: Sorry, but at this point I would have taken cover and shot him. I mean, I’m glad everything worked out O.K. But if someone pointed a gun at me while in their car, and then proceeded to get out of their car w/ gun in hand, I would have popped them as soon as they exited their car.
Even though in the end he only had a BB Gun. I would have probably done the same thing.
I don't take a Gun pointed at me lightly, I take that as a threat on my life and would have reacted to that threat.
Last edited on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 03:14 pm by Dustin
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idahomilitia
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Posted: Tue Sep 9th, 2008 05:50 pm |
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It's easy to judge a situation not being there. I was threatened here in Boise by a group attempting to rob me 2 years back. I pulled my gun and it ended the attempt very readily. BPD said I was justified in pulling my gun. In that situation I could have justifiably shot them. But I know exactly how Saint felt having been there myself. When it comes right down to it, I don't want to kill anyone, and as I drew my weapon, I prayed it would be enough. It was. In California working as an armed guard, I had other times where I had to pull my gun. It never gets easier. In each instance it was the same feeling. Please don't make me have to use this. And in each situation, thankfully, it wasn't necessary to shoot.
I know that if the situation goes south, hesitancy can get me killed, but I felt out each situation and knew in each case just the threat of deadly force was sufficient. Taking a human life can tear your soul to shreds no matter how justifiable. Movies tend to portray bad guys and worthless thugs who deserve to be shot as expediantly as possible. But in real life we don't deal with "bad guys" we deal with flawed human beings, some of which have gone errant and need help. They are people with hopes, dreams, and family that love them. Hopefully a little jail time will get them back on the right track. I'm sure that Saint also used instinct, and because of that, this man is sitting in jail with a chance to make his life better.
The law says if we're threatened by deadly force we can respond with deadly force, but whether or not we feel our life was actually threatened is something we need to decide for ourselves. If you don't feel your life is actually threatened and you shoot, you will get away with it, but you will live with that guilt for the rest of your life.
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ProtectedBy9mm
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Sep 9th, 2008 09:32 pm |
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At this point he turned into his truck, reached onto the seat and retrieved a handgun which he then pointed at me and threatened me again. I instantly went into Condition Red and opened my drivers door to exit my car.
i know the end of the story was that the man ended up having a BB gun. BUT bro! Wow, i am so sorry to hear that you all had to experience that. I am glad that you were quick on your feet and thinking. your the man, curretly my hero.
Also, THIS guy is lucky you didn't just "eliminate the threat", i am sure that not only yourself, but the 2 friend with you -were in iminent fear of death and/or bodily harm and/or injury.
Again: i am happy that you came out of it alright: credit to your smarts.
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