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Alwayspacking
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Sep 10th, 2008 03:56 am |
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idahomilitia wrote: It's easy to judge a situation not being there. I was threatened here in Boise by a group attempting to rob me 2 years back. I pulled my gun and it ended the attempt very readily. BPD said I was justified in pulling my gun. In that situation I could have justifiably shot them. But I know exactly how Saint felt having been there myself. When it comes right down to it, I don't want to kill anyone, and as I drew my weapon, I prayed it would be enough. It was. In California working as an armed guard, I had other times where I had to pull my gun. It never gets easier. In each instance it was the same feeling. Please don't make me have to use this. And in each situation, thankfully, it wasn't necessary to shoot.
I know that if the situation goes south, hesitancy can get me killed, but I felt out each situation and knew in each case just the threat of deadly force was sufficient. Taking a human life can tear your soul to shreds no matter how justifiable. Movies tend to portray bad guys and worthless thugs who deserve to be shot as expediantly as possible. But in real life we don't deal with "bad guys" we deal with flawed human beings, some of which have gone errant and need help. They are people with hopes, dreams, and family that love them. Hopefully a little jail time will get them back on the right track. I'm sure that Saint also used instinct, and because of that, this man is sitting in jail with a chance to make his life better.
The law says if we're threatened by deadly force we can respond with deadly force, but whether or not we feel our life was actually threatened is something we need to decide for ourselves. If you don't feel your life is actually threatened and you shoot, you will get away with it, but you will live with that guilt for the rest of your life.
From the first time I read this until now this story had been going through my mind. I understand he did not want to place his friends in danger, I would not want to place my family in danger also if they were behind the target.
Yes there are times where shooting is not the answer and just drawing the gun will work I agree. I myself just rather be seen beside my gun the behind it.
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Dustin
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Sep 10th, 2008 03:48 pm |
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Alwayspacking wrote:
I myself just rather be seen beside my gun the behind it.
What ? 
Eitherway I too agree that without being there, no one really knows what it was like.
But I have to say, I seriously am concerned in why you didn't pull the trigger on a man threatening you with a gun.
In my mind it doesn't even seem like an option. You point a gun at me, threaten me, and then do both while approaching me, and I'll Fire.
Then again, we weren't there, and I could easily understand that maybe a HIGHER power, kept you from pulling the trigger.
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Scooter123
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 05:07 am |
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In all the post here, I haven't seen any mention of the consequences that would have occured had Saint chosen to use his gun. Frankly, one of my greatest fears about carrying is if I were to use deadly force in response to what turned out to be a toy.
So, lets just suppose that he had killed this moron. The very first thing that would have been discovered by the police would be that it was a shooting in response to a non lethal weapon. The next thing that would happen is that Saint would have been placed in handcuffs, read his rights, and placed under arrest. As for the charges that he would face, that could range all the way from nothing to 2nd degree murder. AND those charges wouldn't be brought as an impartial decision by the D.A., those charges would be dependent on how the Media reacted to a deadly shooting in response to someone being threatened with a toy. Just picture the media circus that would result. The simple fact is the Justice won't enter into the equation one damn bit, the only thing that will matter is what slant to the story will give the media the highest ratings. And the D.A. will go in whatever direction the media circus drives him.
So, now he has to defend himself against the charges that have been brought against him. For those who are not aware of it, really good legal representation can cost anywhere from 500 to 1500 dollars PER HOUR. Before all the dust settles, I think that it's likely that he would be without a home, a job, or any savings.
We had a case in Detroit a while back where an ARMED carjacker was killed by someone with a CCW license and it was witnessed by an off duty police officer who was across the street. The final ruling was Justifiable Homicide but hiring legal representation to assure that he came out OK cost him thousands of dollars. In addition his weapon was siezed and 16 months later it's still logged in as "evidence" and the DPD is in no hurry to return it. There is also the fact that he is still at risk of any third cousin of the carjacker filling a worngfull death lawsuit if they can find a lawyer sleazy enough to file the suit.
I won't argue that we all have the Right to Defend ourselves because we do. Unfortunately the Media seems to have forgotten that. What I am simply pointing out is that exercizing that right will come at a real financial cost. If you should ever have to defend yourself, the very first thing you should do is KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT AND HIRE A GOOD LAWYER. Otherwise you may find a perfectly innocent statement being twisted and used against you. If you have to shoot, just plan on spending at least 1 night in jail and don't even think about giving the police any statement until you have your lawyer sitting next to you. As for your gun, it will be siezed and you'll probably be best to just write it off. I expect that the cost of hiring a lawyer to get your gun back will far exceed the cost of the gun. If you think that isn't fair, tough. As my father always told me, Life isn't always fair, get used to it.
Finally, to Saint. God Bless you. You did exactly the right thing in a very trying circumstance. I only hope that if I ever have to face a choice like yours I will be able to act in a manner as correctly as you did.
Last edited on Fri Sep 19th, 2008 05:11 am by Scooter123
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 06:41 pm |
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'Don't matter of it was a 'toy'... or a finger in his pocket. IF pointed at YOU... used/brandished with the same intent and purpose as a REAL gun... you have no reason to assume that it's not. If you are in immediate fear for your life by that sort of action... then you're completely justified in pullin' the bang switch.
This was in low-light. I have a Walther CP 99 BB pistol that's a dead ringer for a 9mm other than the 'bore'... which is masked anyway. If you do not intend to defend yourself... don't carry. if you're concerned about lawyers and all that... don't carry. If you're all that intimidated by the 'what if's'... don't carry.
If you percieve an object to be a weapon... then it's a weapon. Cops have shot people for waving around their cell phones in the dark.
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mdgary
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 06:54 pm |
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Scooter123 wrote: In all the post here, I haven't seen any mention of the consequences that would have occured had Saint chosen to use his gun. Frankly, one of my greatest fears about carrying is if I were to use deadly force in response to what turned out to be a toy.
So, lets just suppose that he had killed this moron. The very first thing that would have been discovered by the police would be that it was a shooting in response to a non lethal weapon. The next thing that would happen is that Saint would have been placed in handcuffs, read his rights, and placed under arrest. As for the charges that he would face, that could range all the way from nothing to 2nd degree murder. AND those charges wouldn't be brought as an impartial decision by the D.A., those charges would be dependent on how the Media reacted to a deadly shooting in response to someone being threatened with a toy. Just picture the media circus that would result. The simple fact is the Justice won't enter into the equation one damn bit, the only thing that will matter is what slant to the story will give the media the highest ratings. And the D.A. will go in whatever direction the media circus drives him.
So, now he has to defend himself against the charges that have been brought against him. For those who are not aware of it, really good legal representation can cost anywhere from 500 to 1500 dollars PER HOUR. Before all the dust settles, I think that it's likely that he would be without a home, a job, or any savings.
We had a case in Detroit a while back where an ARMED carjacker was killed by someone with a CCW license and it was witnessed by an off duty police officer who was across the street. The final ruling was Justifiable Homicide but hiring legal representation to assure that he came out OK cost him thousands of dollars. In addition his weapon was siezed and 16 months later it's still logged in as "evidence" and the DPD is in no hurry to return it. There is also the fact that he is still at risk of any third cousin of the carjacker filling a worngfull death lawsuit if they can find a lawyer sleazy enough to file the suit.
I won't argue that we all have the Right to Defend ourselves because we do. Unfortunately the Media seems to have forgotten that. What I am simply pointing out is that exercizing that right will come at a real financial cost. If you should ever have to defend yourself, the very first thing you should do is KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT AND HIRE A GOOD LAWYER. Otherwise you may find a perfectly innocent statement being twisted and used against you. If you have to shoot, just plan on spending at least 1 night in jail and don't even think about giving the police any statement until you have your lawyer sitting next to you. As for your gun, it will be siezed and you'll probably be best to just write it off. I expect that the cost of hiring a lawyer to get your gun back will far exceed the cost of the gun. If you think that isn't fair, tough. As my father always told me, Life isn't always fair, get used to it.
Finally, to Saint. God Bless you. You did exactly the right thing in a very trying circumstance. I only hope that if I ever have to face a choice like yours I will be able to act in a manner as correctly as you did.
WARNING:BRUTAL KILLING ON VIDEO WATCH AT OWN RISK...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akvtGcH_djs
This guy was shot by LA county sheriffs office,he presented a flip flop
which he found on the porch .Not even close to a toy gun and he was shot to death.
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Gunslinger
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 08:15 pm |
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mdgary wrote: Scooter123 wrote: In all the post here, I haven't seen any mention of the consequences that would have occured had Saint chosen to use his gun. Frankly, one of my greatest fears about carrying is if I were to use deadly force in response to what turned out to be a toy.
So, lets just suppose that he had killed this moron. The very first thing that would have been discovered by the police would be that it was a shooting in response to a non lethal weapon. The next thing that would happen is that Saint would have been placed in handcuffs, read his rights, and placed under arrest. As for the charges that he would face, that could range all the way from nothing to 2nd degree murder. AND those charges wouldn't be brought as an impartial decision by the D.A., those charges would be dependent on how the Media reacted to a deadly shooting in response to someone being threatened with a toy. Just picture the media circus that would result. The simple fact is the Justice won't enter into the equation one damn bit, the only thing that will matter is what slant to the story will give the media the highest ratings. And the D.A. will go in whatever direction the media circus drives him.
So, now he has to defend himself against the charges that have been brought against him. For those who are not aware of it, really good legal representation can cost anywhere from 500 to 1500 dollars PER HOUR. Before all the dust settles, I think that it's likely that he would be without a home, a job, or any savings.
We had a case in Detroit a while back where an ARMED carjacker was killed by someone with a CCW license and it was witnessed by an off duty police officer who was across the street. The final ruling was Justifiable Homicide but hiring legal representation to assure that he came out OK cost him thousands of dollars. In addition his weapon was siezed and 16 months later it's still logged in as "evidence" and the DPD is in no hurry to return it. There is also the fact that he is still at risk of any third cousin of the carjacker filling a worngfull death lawsuit if they can find a lawyer sleazy enough to file the suit.
I won't argue that we all have the Right to Defend ourselves because we do. Unfortunately the Media seems to have forgotten that. What I am simply pointing out is that exercizing that right will come at a real financial cost. If you should ever have to defend yourself, the very first thing you should do is KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT AND HIRE A GOOD LAWYER. Otherwise you may find a perfectly innocent statement being twisted and used against you. If you have to shoot, just plan on spending at least 1 night in jail and don't even think about giving the police any statement until you have your lawyer sitting next to you. As for your gun, it will be siezed and you'll probably be best to just write it off. I expect that the cost of hiring a lawyer to get your gun back will far exceed the cost of the gun. If you think that isn't fair, tough. As my father always told me, Life isn't always fair, get used to it.
Finally, to Saint. God Bless you. You did exactly the right thing in a very trying circumstance. I only hope that if I ever have to face a choice like yours I will be able to act in a manner as correctly as you did.
WARNING:BRUTAL KILLING ON VIDEO WATCH AT OWN RISK...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akvtGcH_djs
This guy was shot by LA county sheriffs office,he presented a flip flop
which he found on the porch .Not even close to a toy gun and he was shot to death.
@#$%ing @#$% cops. Killed an unarmed man and their own dog. What a bunch of murderous scum. Probably got 2 days paid administrative leave. Gradually, this country is learning just who the domestic enemy some of us are sworn to protect the Constitution from really is.Last edited on Fri Sep 19th, 2008 08:22 pm by Gunslinger
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BrianEMT
Regular Member
| Joined: | Wed Dec 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Boise, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 259 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 12:21 am |
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Gunslinger wrote:@#$%ing @#$% cops. Killed an unarmed man and their own dog. What a bunch of murderous scum. Probably got 2 days paid administrative leave. Gradually, this country is learning just who the domestic enemy some of us are sworn to protect the Constitution from really is.
You have GOT to be kidding me. I am sick of people like you slinging crap at law enforcement for a justifiable shooting at a suspect who was obviously unstable and armed. Regardless of whether or not the suspect was brandishing a toy gun, a real gun, or a cell phone, each presents a similar and equally dangerous situation.
In this situation, and taking into account the totality of the circumstances, I feel more sorry for the highly-trained police service dog than I do about the suspect.
I'm not sure what I thought of you before, but now I certainly don't care or believe anything you have to say, as this has probably been the most IGNORANT thing that could have possibly been said.
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mdgary
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 12:50 am |
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BrianEMT wrote: You have GOT to be kidding me. I am sick of people like you slinging crap at law enforcement for a justifiable shooting at a suspect who was obviously unstable and armed. Regardless of whether or not the suspect was brandishing a toy gun, a real gun, or a cell phone, each presents a similar and equally dangerous situation.
In this situation, and taking into account the totality of the circumstances, I feel more sorry for the highly-trained police service dog than I do about the suspect.
I'm not sure what I thought of you before, but now I certainly don't care or believe anything you have to say, as this has probably been the most IGNORANT thing that could have possibly been said.
Try pointing a fake gun at a police officer or me and see what happens.You think you would be able to post on this or any forum again? I'll answer that for you .(No)
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American Rattlesnake
Regular Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 3rd, 2007 |
| Location: | Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 266 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 01:03 am |
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BrianEMT wrote: You have GOT to be kidding me. I am sick of people like you slinging crap at law enforcement for a justifiable shooting at a suspect who was obviously unstable and armed. Regardless of whether or not the suspect was brandishing a toy gun, a real gun, or a cell phone, each presents a similar and equally dangerous situation.
A justifiable shooting of a guy who was armed....with a sandal? And you equate the danger of a suspect brandishing cell phones with suspects brandishing real guns?
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 01:17 am |
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I watched the thing... Those idiots shot their own dog. They had him under surveillance for quite some time... not an immediate shoot. There were a LOT of cops... Not one of them approached. What kind'a pansys they got in Compton now?
Girlymen?
No... that WAS NOT a good shoot. That was a bunch'a pantywaist amatures playin' police.
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mdgary
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 01:42 am |
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Sonora Rebel wrote: 'Don't matter of it was a 'toy'... or a finger in his pocket. IF pointed at YOU... used/brandished with the same intent and purpose as a REAL gun... you have no reason to assume that it's not. If you are in immediate fear for your life by that sort of action... then you're completely justified in pullin' the bang switch.
This was in low-light. I have a Walther CP 99 BB pistol that's a dead ringer for a 9mm other than the 'bore'... which is masked anyway. If you do not intend to defend yourself... don't carry. if you're concerned about lawyers and all that... don't carry. If you're all that intimidated by the 'what if's'... don't carry.
If you percieve an object to be a weapon... then it's a weapon. Cops have shot people for waving around their cell phones in the dark.
My point exactly! That's why I posted this video ,The cops thought there life or the life of the K9 was in danger,so they reacted.If you take time to figure out it's not a real gun (toy) then it could be to LATE.
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 01:50 am |
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THEY... shot the K9. The dog didn't even hardly get there 'n the bullets started flyin'. Let the dog do what it's there for...
'Sorry... but if you're THAT fearful... you shouldn't be a cop... or an infantryman or cross the street by yourself.
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BrianEMT
Regular Member
| Joined: | Wed Dec 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Boise, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 259 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 02:22 am |
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mdgary wrote: BrianEMT wrote: You have GOT to be kidding me. I am sick of people like you slinging crap at law enforcement for a justifiable shooting at a suspect who was obviously unstable and armed. Regardless of whether or not the suspect was brandishing a toy gun, a real gun, or a cell phone, each presents a similar and equally dangerous situation.
In this situation, and taking into account the totality of the circumstances, I feel more sorry for the highly-trained police service dog than I do about the suspect.
I'm not sure what I thought of you before, but now I certainly don't care or believe anything you have to say, as this has probably been the most IGNORANT thing that could have possibly been said.
Try pointing a fake gun at a police officer or me and see what happens.You think you would be able to post on this or any forum again? I'll answer that for you .(No)
Sounds like you are quoting the wrong person.
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mdgary
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 02:33 am |
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The guy made a direct threat to the officers and the K9 "let the dog go and I will shoot him"At that point the officers must have thought he had a firearm. Even though he only had a flipflop just like a toy gun it was used to threaten a life and therefore cost him his.
Any threat to your life whether with a toy gun or a bazooka should be taken seriously and acted on accordingly ...Better to be judge by twelve than carried by six.
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mdgary
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 02:38 am |
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BrianEMT wrote: mdgary wrote: BrianEMT wrote: You have GOT to be kidding me. I am sick of people like you slinging crap at law enforcement for a justifiable shooting at a suspect who was obviously unstable and armed. Regardless of whether or not the suspect was brandishing a toy gun, a real gun, or a cell phone, each presents a similar and equally dangerous situation.
In this situation, and taking into account the totality of the circumstances, I feel more sorry for the highly-trained police service dog than I do about the suspect.
I'm not sure what I thought of you before, but now I certainly don't care or believe anything you have to say, as this has probably been the most IGNORANT thing that could have possibly been said.
Try pointing a fake gun at a police officer or me and see what happens.You think you would be able to post on this or any forum again? I'll answer that for you .(No)
Sounds like you are quoting the wrong person.
Sorry about that BrianEMT... My appologies I misread your post ,won't happen again...
I see where I screwed up.....Last edited on Sat Sep 20th, 2008 02:53 am by mdgary
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Hubby_MC
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 21st, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 52 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 01:02 pm |
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BrianEMT wrote: Gunslinger wrote:@#$%ing @#$% cops. Killed an unarmed man and their own dog. What a bunch of murderous scum. Probably got 2 days paid administrative leave. Gradually, this country is learning just who the domestic enemy some of us are sworn to protect the Constitution from really is. You sir, are an idiot. People like you are hurting your cause of Open Carry more than all the leftist liberals out there today. Stupid statements like this make you sound like a nut. Suicide by cop is not the same as murder and if you cant tell the difference between telling officers you have a gun and murder you should not be allowed anywhere near a weapon.
Too bad you post such ignorant statements on a public forum like this representing your fellow OCers.
One step foreward, two steps back................
Last edited on Sat Sep 20th, 2008 01:06 pm by Hubby_MC
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Dustin
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 08:40 pm |
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Sonora Rebel wrote: I watched the thing... Those idiots shot their own dog. They had him under surveillance for quite some time... not an immediate shoot. There were a LOT of cops... Not one of them approached. What kind'a pansys they got in Compton now?
Girlymen?
No... that WAS NOT a good shoot. That was a bunch'a pantywaist amatures playin' police.
Damn Straight !
Those cops deserved to have those badges shoved in their ASS !
Ever heard of NON-LETHAL FORCE ? Bean Bag, Tazer, Gas, Flashbang. They obviously had PLENTY of time to get those things ready.
These guys talked to him for 5 minutes, then forced an action on him, then shot him 30 F.ing Times !?!?
I hope they all got FIRED !
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 09:01 pm |
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| 'Wasn't gadgets that they lacked... it was personal courage and discipline. Sorry fellas... 'guts goes with the job. BTDT! Ya gotta 'cowboy up' now 'n then.
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Dustin
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 09:34 pm |
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Sonora Rebel wrote: 'Wasn't gadgets that they lacked... it was personal courage and discipline. Sorry fellas... 'guts goes with the job. BTDT! Ya gotta 'cowboy up' now 'n then.
I'm truly sickened by this.
Gangsta, Rapper, Black/White Still a Kid.
81 shots fired, 22 make there mark.
But what can you expect from the training they get - NONE !
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 09:54 pm |
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| Somebody cut loose with a full auto somethin'. Maybe an MP-5. Why? The dog was on him... just barely. I didn't even see reason for the dog. I did see extreme cowardice among these cops tho. A collective wimp-out. The guy was in the open... lit up... what else they need? You go in 'n effect the arrest. BTDT too. Alone. That's what they pay you for. That's why they give you a gun and a badge 'n handcuffs and AUTHORITY. That was NOT a good shoot.
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