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NightOwl
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| Joined: | Sat Jul 26th, 2008 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 461 |
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Posted: Sat Aug 29th, 2009 08:29 am |
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I went to the fair last night around 7pm or so. The gate security wouldn't let me in without me producing ID and them writing the information down. I refused this, so they contacted their supervisor (I forget the name, not Mr. Calley). The supervisor came out, and asked if I had ID. I informed him I did. He then asked if he could see it, I refused, and he told me I could go on in, and to have a nice evening at the fair.
Other than the gate security not being fully up to speed, it was otherwise a smooth evening for OC. No confrontations, though a few citizens noticed and spoke amongst themselves, mostly younger individuals. Nobody asked me about it.
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IndianaBoy79
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Dec 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Eagle, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 486 |
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Posted: Sat Aug 29th, 2009 09:03 am |
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Wow, great job Nightowl! You win a free audio recorder if you don't already have one!
I'm currently in the process of writing a letter to all the chiefs of police in Ada county, all of our Idaho representatives in the area, and our Attorney General. It will be reviewed by an attorney that I am in the process of procuring.
Also, the police report for the gentleman who was detained at the bus stop a few weeks ago: I will be going there on Monday morning at 11am, armed with my gun and a recorder, to pick it up. Anyone is welcome to join me.
Last edited on Sun Aug 30th, 2009 05:05 am by IndianaBoy79
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Hiredgun30
Regular Member
| Joined: | Wed Jun 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Caldwell, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 406 |
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Posted: Sat Aug 29th, 2009 02:55 pm |
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hey night owl... I hate to admit it but the people working security at the front gate were my co workers.. I am glad they are being educated.. about a month ago i tried to explain to them about the preemption law and the common response to me was
" you dont know what you are talking about" ......this morning,they actually told me about this incident !!! great job !!!!
I made sure and told them " i told ya so" about 630 this morning.
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Hooksc
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Aug 29th, 2009 06:13 pm |
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Last edited on Sun Sep 6th, 2009 11:22 am by Hooksc
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NightOwl
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| Joined: | Sat Jul 26th, 2008 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 461 |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30th, 2009 03:21 am |
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IndianaBoy79 wrote: Also, the police report for the gentleman who was detained at the bus stop a few weeks ago: I will be going there on Monday morning at 11am, armed with my gun and a recorder, to pick it up. Anyone is welcome to join me.
Might be worth checking to see if you can get a copy of the dash cam footage, if there is any, since you'll be there already. I don't know if that's something ordinarily released, but dash cams in police cars (with audio) is becoming more the norm these days. Just a thought.
Hiredgun30 wrote:
hey night owl... I hate to admit it but the people working security at the front gate were my co workers.. I am glad they are being educated.. about a month ago i tried to explain to them about the preemption law and the common response to me was
" you dont know what you are talking about" ......this morning,they actually told me about this incident !!! great job !!!!
I made sure and told them " i told ya so" about 630 this morning.
Ha, that's funny. Hope I didn't come across as a prick.  A quote from one of them: "are you one of those constitutionalists?". Either way, glad they learned something from it (and that you got a good 'told ya' in there, too!).
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John Wolver
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| Joined: | Fri Jul 31st, 2009 |
| Location: | Caldwell, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 291 |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30th, 2009 06:20 am |
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| good job everyone, keep up the good work.
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passtheammo
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 30th, 2009 07:07 am |
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I'm very disappointed in the Kootenai Sheriffs Department.
I OC'd to the fair with my wife and 2 children today. After being in for about an hour, I settled in to watch the kids play in the family fun center. As we got up to to leave I found myself and my family surrounded by 5 sheriff deputies.
They informed me that there is a sign on the entrance of the fair that states no weapons allowed. I failed to see that sign, but I still asked the deputy if the fairgrounds were public or private property.
He responded that it is public property, to which I informed him that I have a right to be carrying. He told me that he didn't have a problem with my carrying, but they were called because people were reporting it.
Since I was with my family, I didn't feel like creating a scene and being the right, but tazzed right example. So I told them I would put it in my truck.
I'm currently writing an email from my Kootenai County Constitution Party email address, expressing my feelings toward my rights being violated instead of upheld by his deputies.
Before getting accosted by the sheriff deputies.
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NightOwl
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| Joined: | Sat Jul 26th, 2008 |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30th, 2009 08:53 am |
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passtheammo wrote: He responded that it is public property, to which I informed him that I have a right to be carrying. He told me that he didn't have a problem with my carrying, but they were called because people were reporting it.
Since I was with my family, I didn't feel like creating a scene and being the right, but tazzed right example. So I told them I would put it in my truck.
What did they say after admitting that you had every right to carry?
People reporting it is fine. They show up, confirm that you're not wildly waving it around or whatever, and that's about all they can do. Man With A Gun, it's about the same as Man With a Sno-Cone.
Did they ask or tell you to remove it? It's a common tactic to "request" that citizens do things, when they aren't allowed to require you to do them. Example: Do you mind if I search your vehicle? Phrasing things with surrounding talk to imply that you should comply, when in reality there are no grounds for them to require it, and they know it. Much like I was asked to produce my ID so they could write it down at the entrance to the fair, which I knew full well they couldn't require (ty to the previous posters in the thread for clearing that up, btw), so I said no...and that was the end of my discussion.
In situations like this, if you ask pointed questions as to whether or not they're asking or demanding that you do something, they'll often admit that they're asking. At which point asking them "so...can I leave now?" is a good response. You might be surprised how often you can.
As always, feel free to verify this stuff with another source, I recommend it as I make no claims to omniscience, but I'm confindent you'll find it to be correct.
Hope your time at the fair was otherwise fun and uneventful.
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passtheammo
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 30th, 2009 10:12 am |
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Thanks NightOwl,
They stated that they had the authority to remove me "because we're in a big gathering of people and the people called it in, so we can ask you to leave".
Now that I think about it, he did state it in an "asking manner". I'll have to pry em next time. But here is the letter that I just sent to Sheriff Rocky Watson of Kootenai County.
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kcsd@kcgov.us
Attn: Sheriff Rocky Watson, Kootenai County
My family and I were delighted to attend the North Idaho Fair today. My 3 year old daughter loves seeing all the animals and playing with the kids in the family fun center. I'm a rodeo fan myself, and I saw you out there at the opening with our other fine civil servants.Thank you for your service.
An hour after our arrival we were seated on the hay bales watching the kids play with the go-carts through the bale maze. As we stood up to leave I found myself, my wife and kids all surrounded by 5 sheriff deputies. They questioned me on if I was a law enforcement officer. Upon my answering that I was not, they informed me that there was a sign on the entrance of the fair that stated no firearms were allowed. They told me that I would need to exit the fair and secure my firearm in my vehicle, only then could I return.
As I'm not one to make a scene, especially since I'm with my family, I told him that I would comply. My daughter and I headed toward the exit together with two deputies following us. As I reached the gate I turned and asked the deputies if we were on public or private property. They told me it was public property. Even though I already knew that answer, I wanted to be sure that they were aware of the laws that they work to uphold.
He informed me that they personally didn't have a problem, but since they had received calls regarding my carrying that they could ask me to leave. I willingly left and secured my weapon in my vehicle and returned to enjoy the rest of the evening with friends and family. After all, I could be right... but I could be tazed and right.
According to Senate Bill NO. 1441, which passed and became law in March of 2008, it is against the law for "any county, city, agency, board or any other political subdivision of this state to adopt or enforce any law, rule, regulation, or ordinance which regulates in any manner the sale, acquisition, transfer, ownership, possession, transportation, carrying or storage of firearms or any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition." Further information on this bill can be obtained at http://www3.state.id.us/oasis/2008/S1441.html
I'm extremely disappointed that my right was not defended by the sheriff deputies as it is their sworn duty to do so. My rights do not come to an end when people around me feel uncomfortable with my expressing them. I hope you can understand my concern. I'd like to know that in the future I can exercise my right to carry the tools required to defend my loved ones and anyone in danger without fear of being accosted and expelled from public property.
If I am mistaken in my understanding of Idaho state law and my right to carry at the county fair, please let me know.
Thank you for your time, and I hope to hear back from you.
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.org
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IndianaBoy79
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Dec 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Eagle, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 486 |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30th, 2009 10:37 am |
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Good job. I'm sorry you had an issue. Those signs are in clear violation of SB1441.
http://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/
Go there to check the county laws in your area as well. The Western Idaho Fairgrounds is controlled by a board of directors set up under country law. The grounds are county property and when it is an event sponsored by the county you can't be denied. The fair is sponsored by the county.
If the grounds are rented out to a private event not sponsored by the county than they can keep you out. I'm guessing your fair is also sponsored by the county.
One critique: Don't ever ask police what the law is or to correct you on it. We have lawyers for that. Just make sure you know the law before you act on anything.
Does anyone have pictures of any "no guns" signs at the Idaho Western Fair?
Last edited on Sun Aug 30th, 2009 12:06 pm by IndianaBoy79
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widescreen
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| Joined: | Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 |
| Location: | Caldwell, USA |
| Posts: | 32 |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30th, 2009 05:21 pm |
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passtheammo wroteHe informed me that they personally didn't have a problem, but since they had received calls regarding my carrying that they could ask me to leave. I willingly left and secured my weapon in my vehicle and returned to enjoy the rest of the evening with friends and family. After all, I could be right... but I could be tazed and right.
I feel for you and not wanting to make a scene and bring attention to your family. I don't know how you have your rig set up, or if you could actually secure your sidearm in your truck, but I would be pretty concerned about leaving my sidearm in the car after being escorted by LLE. How many people would have seen you do that? Obviously your car didn't get broken into, but it could happen.
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John Wolver
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| Joined: | Fri Jul 31st, 2009 |
| Location: | Caldwell, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 291 |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30th, 2009 07:39 pm |
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| keep us informed. What happened was wrong.
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Hiredgun30
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| Joined: | Wed Jun 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Caldwell, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 406 |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30th, 2009 11:25 pm |
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hey pass.. have you considered contacting the aclu.. they have been getting involved with OC harassment cases in colorado and nevada.
http://www.acluidaho.org/legal.html
Last edited on Sun Aug 30th, 2009 11:29 pm by Hiredgun30
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IndianaBoy79
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Dec 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Eagle, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 486 |
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Posted: Mon Aug 31st, 2009 03:42 am |
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While the idea makes me partially sick, I too think it would good to have them on our side. How good would it look on the news to see the ACLU defending our right to OC?
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passtheammo
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 31st, 2009 05:09 pm |
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Response from Lt. Dan Soumas
Mr. Coleman,
I’m checking into your complaint to the Sheriff about the denial of your carry during the Fair. A couple of questions as I only have your email at this point. Were you intending to carry open or concealed? Did you pay to get into the Fair? If question # 2 sounds strange here is my reason. When you pay to get into an event you typically are agreeing to follow the rules that venue sets for that particular event. I will be checking the Fair rules, how they were posted and the law on this issue.
Thanks,
Lt. Dan Soumas
My Response to Lt. Dan Soumas
Thanks Lt. Soumas,
I was open carrying, and I purchased tickets for myself and my family to get in.
If paying to get into an event is my agreement to follow the rules that is understandable. My issue is when those rules violate my rights as provided by Senate Bill 1441 in this link - http://www3.state.id.us/oasis/2008/S1441.html
18-3302J (2) - Paraphrased
No county, city, agency, board or any other political subdivision of this state may adopt or enforce any rule which regulates in any manner the possession or carrying of firearms.
If indeed the fair rules state that no firearms are allowed, then the fairgrounds are in violation of my rights. I would like to know that your department is actively working to protect myself and others who abide by these laws. I would also like to see that particular sign removed, as well as any other such sign that is placed on public property (besides schools and courthouses as is written into law).
Thank you for your response and support with the matter.
--
Chad Coleman
Kootenai County Constitution Party
http://kootenaicp.orgLast edited on Mon Aug 31st, 2009 05:10 pm by passtheammo
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John Wolver
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| Joined: | Fri Jul 31st, 2009 |
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Posted: Mon Aug 31st, 2009 07:01 pm |
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| good response.
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IndianaBoy79
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| Joined: | Thu Dec 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Eagle, Idaho USA |
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Posted: Mon Aug 31st, 2009 09:04 pm |
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Awesome letter man. He's right about "agreeing" to their rules, and they certainly have the lawful authority to make certain rules. As you pointed out to him, this is one area that they can not regulate; did you check out the sterling codifiers website to see who control the county fairgrounds and if the fair board is set up under the authority of the county? I have a good feeling it is. Wow, great work.
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Hiredgun30
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| Joined: | Wed Jun 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Caldwell, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 406 |
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Posted: Mon Aug 31st, 2009 11:38 pm |
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hey pass you can contact the P.o.s.t. "office of professional responsibility"
here is a link.... you have an investigator near you..
http://www.idaho-post.org/OPR/Integrity.html
just from having a chance to meet doug graves and speak to him while i was at the academy. They take alligations serious....
Last edited on Mon Aug 31st, 2009 11:40 pm by Hiredgun30
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passtheammo
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 31st, 2009 11:53 pm |
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IndianaBoy79 wrote: Awesome letter man. He's right about "agreeing" to their rules, and they certainly have the lawful authority to make certain rules. As you pointed out to him, this is one area that they can not regulate; did you check out the sterling codifiers website to see who control the county fairgrounds and if the fair board is set up under the authority of the county? I have a good feeling it is. Wow, great work.
Thanks man,
I looked at the Sterling Codifiers website. I'm just not sure what or where to look.
In the "Codes Online" section I did a search for "fair" and "fairgrounds" in the "Kootenai County" and the "Coeur d'Alene" municipality, but was unable to find anything useful.
Any help would be appreciated on how to properly use the site.
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passtheammo
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 31st, 2009 11:57 pm |
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Hiredgun30 wrote: hey pass you can contact the P.o.s.t. "office of professional responsibility"
here is a link.... you have an investigator near you..
http://www.idaho-post.org/OPR/Integrity.html
just from having a chance to meet doug graves and speak to him while i was at the academy. They take alligations serious....
Thanks for this info. I've not heard of this outfit before.
Should I shoot an email to my local investigator and let him know about the incident? I wouldn't know where to begin with this group.
I was glad to find this page on their site: http://www.idaho-post.org/links/CSO.html
I looked around for Sheriff Rocky Watson's direct email and was unable to find it on the KCSheriff website. But it's listed here!
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