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ecocks
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 5th, 2009 |
| Location: | Meridian, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 228 |
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Posted: Thu Oct 22nd, 2009 11:25 pm |
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While I was at the Nampa PO today, I asked about how they thought the firearms ban read. The response, from a Supervisory level employee was absolutely no open carry and firearms were not permitted PERIOD. The desk clerk chimed in that this included the PO parking lot as well and hunters "know" to park out on the street. This is inline with that ruling a week or so ago about the employee who was prosecuted for possession in his car on the lot. Park on the street or risk trouble.
I also posted a question about how this affects prosecution...
Title 18 section 930.h states...
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be
posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal
facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted
conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court
facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under
subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such
notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had
actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
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jdgypsy
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Jun 14th, 2009 |
| Location: | Meridian, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 149 |
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Posted: Sat Oct 24th, 2009 04:37 pm |
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I have never noticed a posting at the local PO here. Will look better next time. As far as the parking lot goes, I know there are no signs posted. That I am certain of.
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NightOwl
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| Joined: | Sat Jul 26th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 391 |
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Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 03:54 am |
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| That's okay. It's a great idea for the post office to deter possible customers when they're losing money the way they are. If I can't put it in a mailbox, I'm going with UPS.
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old dog
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| Joined: | Thu Feb 5th, 2009 |
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Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 06:31 pm |
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| I'm with him all the way. E-mail and UPS are the answer.
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Eric.
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sat Aug 29th, 2009 |
| Location: | Boise, USA |
| Posts: | 34 |
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Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 09:15 pm |
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Thanks for the warning about the parking lot. Just goes to show you there is no bound to government screwing up business.
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Decoligny
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2009 10:24 pm |
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The Post Office is not covered by this section. They are covered by a specific section of Federal Code dealing with the Post Office. I am typing this from a I-touch, but will try to cite when I get home.
ecocks wrote:
While I was at the Nampa PO today, I asked about how they thought the firearms ban read. The response, from a Supervisory level employee was absolutely no open carry and firearms were not permitted PERIOD. The desk clerk chimed in that this included the PO parking lot as well and hunters "know" to park out on the street. This is inline with that ruling a week or so ago about the employee who was prosecuted for possession in his car on the lot. Park on the street or risk trouble.
I also posted a question about how this affects prosecution...
Title 18 section 930.h states...
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be
posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal
facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted
conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court
facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under
subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such
notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had
actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
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NightOwl
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sat Jul 26th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 391 |
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Posted: Sun Nov 1st, 2009 05:40 am |
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I recall reading something where Mike refuted that the other day. I'll edit and link that in momentarily. I believe the post office is covered based on his arguments.
Edit: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum66/33021-1.html
The edit is the link to a 3 page discussion on it if it's legal or not. Some reasonably detailed discussion of the applicable law in that thread.
Last edited on Sun Nov 1st, 2009 05:42 am by NightOwl
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ecocks
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 5th, 2009 |
| Location: | Meridian, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 228 |
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Posted: Sun Nov 1st, 2009 06:44 am |
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Yeah, apparently, you cannot be charged under Title 18 if it isn't posted BUT they can charge you under another law, statute, regulation or code.
How complicated can they make this?
We need a new Constitutional Amendment which prohibits lawyers from serving in Congress or Government office....sigh.
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NightOwl
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| Joined: | Sat Jul 26th, 2008 |
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Posted: Sun Nov 1st, 2009 07:51 pm |
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| Wouldn't help. The lawmakers don't actually read the laws they propose or vote on anyway. Google it if you doubt me, I remember watching video of a senator laughing when he was asked about it, said he didn't have the time.
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NavyLT
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 03:58 am |
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ecocks wrote: Yeah, apparently, you cannot be charged under Title 18 if it isn't posted BUT they can charge you under another law, statute, regulation or code.
How complicated can they make this?
We need a new Constitutional Amendment which prohibits lawyers from serving in Congress or Government office....sigh.
The basic infraction that you get for merely possessing a firearm on postal property, except for "official" reasons (which means either mailing it, or being LEO who carries an official weapon on duty or in very rare circumstance an active duty military member carrying an officially issued weapon in the line of duty) is 39 CFR 232.1(l) which only carries a penalty of up to 30 days in jail and up to $50 fine.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=a00db3c097558447d8c67881bfa87455&rgn=div8&view=text&node=39:1.0.1.4.21.0.1.1&idno=39
IF you are possessing the firearm for the purpose of committing a crime, THEN they throw in the 18 USC 930(b) kicker to raise the fine and the jail time to 5 years:
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000930----000-.html
If you will notice, the requirement that 18 USC 930 be posted only applies to prohibitions in subsections (a) and (e). If you possess a firearm at the post office with the intent to commit a crime, the 18 USC 930 sign is NOT required to be present to be convicted.
Please take note of this particular poster, which invalidated my earlier arguments that 18 USC 930 does not apply to the post office:
http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/posters/pos158.pdf
The typical sign that you will see somewhere in the post office building is this one:
http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/posters/pos7.pdf
Except in Southern California where you will see this poster instead:
http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/posters/pos7s.pdf
Last edited on Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 04:01 am by NavyLT
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TopGunIdaho
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Oct 8th, 2009 |
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Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 06:04 am |
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Except in Southern California where you will see this poster instead:
http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/posters/pos7s.pdf
So true, So true.
I think the one I saw in Idaho had a gun with the red line through it. You had to be half way through the line to see it.
Last edited on Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 06:06 am by TopGunIdaho
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Eric.
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sat Aug 29th, 2009 |
| Location: | Boise, USA |
| Posts: | 34 |
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 05:11 pm |
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I sometimes wonder how much design there is to the sheer mass of laws with little enforcement or punishment for offenders. As if some desire that everyone be guilty, and thus beholden to the gov., all while permitting the truly guilty to roam free.
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