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Darth AkSarBen
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 14th, 2009 03:52 pm |
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In section 22 of the Constitution of Illinois (current 1970) it states:
SECTION 22. RIGHT TO ARMS
Subject only to the police power, the right of the
individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be
infringed.
(Source: Illinois Constitution.)
I know that the NRA is taking the latest test of the right for a state to not be under the ruling of the Federal Government, as in Heller v District of Columbia, but can someone please explain the first part of this section to me, especially the "Subject only to the police power," part?
Illinois should fall under the 14 Amendment that incorporates ALL the states to abide by the Bill of Rights, ratified into the Constitution. That Amendment 14, was to ensure that southern states did not take it upon themselves to deny and abdicate certain rights to black people immediately following the Civil War end.
Now, the City of Chicago is doing battle with the NRA over this issue of individual gun rights, yet they, as being part of Illinois, are subject to the 14th Amendment same as all other states, which is an article of incorporation.
Personally, I think our Second Amendment rights are and should be exercised without prejudices by any state or jurisdiction, AND follow the same example of "innocent until proven guilty" schema. In other words, YOU have the right to keep and bear arms until the State or Federal Government proves otherwise. Which, by the way, is EXACTLY the way it is now when you purchase a firearm from a FFL dealer. He takes your name and information and checks on your validity to purchase that firearm from him, through a sophisticated data bank of inquiry.
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Doug Huffman
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 14th, 2009 03:58 pm |
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Police power is a term of (legal) art phrase likely meaning/connoting more than is obvious from the common meanings of the words. Read F. Bastiat 'The Law', 1849.
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ilbob
Activist Member
| Joined: | Tue May 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 746 |
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Offline
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Posted: Sun Jun 14th, 2009 10:11 pm |
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The police power is the general power governments have to make laws to regulate behavior.
Essentially "subject to the police power" can be replaced with "unless the legislature says otherwise". IOW, the first part of the phrase nullifies the second. It was a scam from the 1970 con-con.
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Darth AkSarBen
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 15th, 2009 12:10 am |
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ilbob wrote: The police power is the general power governments have to make laws to regulate behavior.
Essentially "subject to the police power" can be replaced with "unless the legislature says otherwise". IOW, the first part of the phrase nullifies the second. It was a scam from the 1970 con-con.
So, their "Second Amendment" was witten to give FULL power to the State Government, and none to the people, so it was worded as such, but is really a "pull the wool over the eyes of the general public" 'cause, we ain't gonna let you have a firearm if we don't see fit though legislatutre.
Illinois needs to re-write this section to be more in step with liberty and freedom!
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Nutczak
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 04:31 pm |
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Darth AkSarBen wrote: ilbob wrote:
Illinois needs to re-write this section to be more in step with liberty and freedom!
I bet that is not ever going to happen in my lifetime,
I did 7 years in Illinois. I was offered a very well-paying position at a branch of a multinational corporation, and took the position.
I had not known about IL's draconian gun laws when I moved myself and my firearm collection there. Turns out I was breaking the law because I did not know about this FOID card BS. So I applied and I got denied!
Funny thing that I got denied, becuase I have no criminal history, I have no mental defects, and to this day I still buy firearms from FFL dealers with no delays. But in IL I was declined their BS FOID card. I chose McHenry county as a place to live, far enough out, but still within reach of the city.
I do not mean any offense to the "subjects" of IL, but the entire governement from the top down to the bottom is rotten to the core! I have never seen so much criminal activity by government entities in my entire life. I got used to the general public being scammers in FL, but in IL the most horrendous crimes happen daily by your government officials. Crooked cops, crooked legislators, crooked everything! I really wish some national force would completely clean house in IL and give you guys a chance to start from scratch and not be forced to keep criminals that trample your rights in power! You can relocate in any direction and instantly gain your rights back, what is keeping you in IL?
When I first moved there, Edgar was the governor, And the sec-state was Ryan, I had to register 3 vehicles and 2 trailers and at the DMV , so I wrote my check out to "Secretary of State" and I was told that the check needs to be made out to "George Ryan" instead. So wrote ryans name behind where I wrote secretary of state and they refused to accept the check with his official title on it! They really expected me to write a check to george ryan personally for a government transaction?? Come on now! Does anyone else see the problem with this?
So blowjobavich got busted, Ryan got busted, Rostenkowski got busted, Edgar got in some trouble, we had the 'Silver Shovel" bust and countless others. And I smile everytime I hear of another IL politician finally getting caught and jailed! I watch WGN on cable just to see which politician gets busted every week! Why do you tolerate that crap?
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junglebob
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 12:00 am |
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Nutczak, Are you telling us Wisconsin governor Doyle is a champion of firearm owners rights. I noticed he won't sign a concealed carry bill.
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Nutczak
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 04:29 pm |
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junglebob wrote: Nutczak, Are you telling us Wisconsin governor Doyle is a champion of firearm owners rights. I noticed he won't sign a concealed carry bill.
I have never said anything about Doyle that could be considered flattery !
If you have taken my comments about crooked government personally, I do apologoze becuase it was not meant to slam the citizens of that state, just the people in positions of power.
But at the same time, I do not see a CCW privilage in IL , And I do not see legal open-carry in IL, I see legal citizens needing to jump through hoops to get permission to exercise a right protected in every other part of the country except a few select states. I also see cities having tha ability to deny its residents their constitutional rights.
I see a private corporation named the "mchenry county conservation District" stealing land from farmers, fencing it off with barbed wire, and not allowing any people or legal activities on that land. I have seen and heard about so much crooked dealings in that state it makes me sick that I ever chose to live & work there.
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junglebob
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:37 pm |
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Nutczak, I have to agree with you there is a lot of corruption in Illinois government. I guess I have to say I wonder about some of the politicians in Illinois, why they get elected and reelected. Why does Daley get kept in for Mayor in Chicago?
Last week there was a Second Amendment Freedom Rally in Chicago. Estimates of the number of people who showed up is about 400, there are about 247,000 gun owners in Cook County, based on the approximate number of Firearm Owner ID cards issued. If all the people there were from Cook, and they weren't, that was less than 2/10 of 1% of the gun owners who showed up.
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Big Dipper
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sat May 16th, 2009 |
| Location: | Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 5 |
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Offline
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 03:49 pm |
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Junglebob, I am one of those that didn't make it.
In this economy, some of us have to work on Friday's. I don't understand why they couldn't have scheduled it for a weekend.
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junglebob
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 02:01 pm |
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Big Dipper wrote: Junglebob, I am one of those that didn't make it.
In this economy, some of us have to work on Friday's. I don't understand why they couldn't have scheduled it for a weekend.
That question came up on the Illinoiscarry.com/forum. The answer to that was that was that the downtown has a lot of people there on week days and on weekends things are pretty dead. It was at the Thompson Center where there is a lot of traffic of people going in and out during the day. Non gun owners could stop and listen to speakers on their lunch hour if they wished.
When I mentioned on the Illinoiscarry forum that the turnout was very low considering the number of gun owners in Cook County, someone mentioned this and I'll quote "There is one thing that could be hard to explain, but being a Chicagoan means growing up learning never to even admit, in public, yo're a gun owner. Even in my own family, when the topic of my (all-too-frequent) participation in stuff like USPSA comes up I cringe and try to tamp it down. Silly? Yes, but its the way we're brought up. I didn't tell anyone I know locally except my wife where I was friday.
No wonder the common notion among Chicagoans is that guns are bad. Law owning gun owners won't admit it to non-gun owning friends, so they continue to think of gang bangers who commit murder as the only people who have guns.
I hope you and any other Chicago folks here aren't like the guy I mentioned. If so make a huge effort to change. A few years ago I asked a friend, who isn't a gun owner, to be a reference when I got a Pennsylvania non-resident LTC. He said he hoped I wasn't applying for a job somewhere else. I said no the reference was for a Pa LTC. He responded, I've got a friend from Tennessee who just got a LTC. Would it have been better to say, no the reference is for something else and leave it at that. What gives him a better impression of gun owners and LTC holders?
Maybe Chicago gun owners can change this perception of gun owners like motorcycle riders have. I think people have a better perception of them than they did in years past, and it isn't because they refused to admit they rode a cycle, maybe even belonged to a motorcyle club. Oh no, you're a motorcyle gang member!
Last edited on Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 02:15 pm by junglebob
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ComradeV
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 9th, 2009 01:03 am |
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if you join the Gun Owners of America you get a cool bumper sticker that says "its a right, not a privilege."
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halal6
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Sep 30th, 2009 11:24 pm |
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| I am so glad the supreme court is hearing this case. Pray they rule in our favor. IN the meantime we need to get our politicians on board.
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junglebob
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 1st, 2009 02:20 pm |
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halal6 wrote: I am so glad the supreme court is hearing this case. Pray they rule in our favor. IN the meantime we need to get our politicians on board.
I'd suggest that everyone who can go to Illinois Gun Owners Lobby Day in Springfield next year, to help convince politicians to get on board. Last years attendance was about 2500, this years 5000. It would be nice to see 10,000 next year.
I too do hope the supreme court votes in our favor. At least then Chicago folks could have a handgun at home. Maybe after that they'd think about carry.
On February 2 2008, 5 women were killed at the Tinley Park Lane Bryant store, still no LTC bill even voted on in the Illinois legislature. I wonder if the woman who survived carrys?
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SAK
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Oct 4th, 2009 06:47 am |
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I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone say "Illinois will never...in my lifetime..."
This is an attitude that needs to change, as it does us no good. There are a lot of people actively working to change things, including myself, so hearing people say this is like a slap in the face.
You probably haven't heard of the county resolutions that have passed, or the counties that have been working to pass their own CCW, or the sheriff's association, or farm bureau? Things are changing, sometimes slowly, but we are gaining tons of ground right now.
With SCOTUS taking this case, it could really get interesting in the next year. But even that aside, the politicians are not getting away with gun bashing and grabbing like before. I've certainly noticed many of them keeping their mouths shut about guns, out of their own self preservation.
Gun control in general in this country has really been hurt badly.
As the saying goes, "If you're not part of the solution..."
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SAK
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Oct 4th, 2009 06:52 am |
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It will take a lot of work, but we will turn Chicago around. It won't be frowned upon to own a gun. The Cook County and surrounding area gun owners can all come out of the woodwork when they no longer need to worry about what people think. Public education. It's going to be messy, tireless work. If nothing else, it'll be damn interesting!
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colorado slick
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sat Oct 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 66 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Mon Oct 5th, 2009 07:36 pm |
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Darth AkSarBen wrote: In section 22 of the Constitution of Illinois (current 1970) it states:
SECTION 22. RIGHT TO ARMS
Subject only to the police power, the right of the
individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be
infringed.
(Source: Illinois Constitution.)
I know that the NRA is taking the latest test of the right for a state to not be under the ruling of the Federal Government, as in Heller v District of Columbia, but can someone please explain the first part of this section to me, especially the "Subject only to the police power," part?
Illinois should fall under the 14 Amendment that incorporates ALL the states to abide by the Bill of Rights, ratified into the Constitution. That Amendment 14, was to ensure that southern states did not take it upon themselves to deny and abdicate certain rights to black people immediately following the Civil War end.
Now, the City of Chicago is doing battle with the NRA over this issue of individual gun rights, yet they, as being part of Illinois, are subject to the 14th Amendment same as all other states, which is an article of incorporation.
Personally, I think our Second Amendment rights are and should be exercised without prejudices by any state or jurisdiction, AND follow the same example of "innocent until proven guilty" schema. In other words, YOU have the right to keep and bear arms until the State or Federal Government proves otherwise. Which, by the way, is EXACTLY the way it is now when you purchase a firearm from a FFL dealer. He takes your name and information and checks on your validity to purchase that firearm from him, through a sophisticated data bank of inquiry. Let's hope you folks in Illinois get some relief today from the U.S. Supreme court. I hope that Dork Daileys infulance doesn't reach that far but, you still have to be concerned with the newest court member.....Colorado slick
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Oct 5th, 2009 09:18 pm |
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Nutczak wrote:
When I first moved there, Edgar was the governor, And the sec-state was Ryan, I had to register 3 vehicles and 2 trailers and at the DMV , so I wrote my check out to "Secretary of State" and I was told that the check needs to be made out to "George Ryan" instead. So wrote ryans name behind where I wrote secretary of state and they refused to accept the check with his official title on it! They really expected me to write a check to george ryan personally for a government transaction?? Come on now! Does anyone else see the problem with this?
So blowjobavich got busted, Ryan got busted, Rostenkowski got busted, Edgar got in some trouble, we had the 'Silver Shovel" bust and countless others. And I smile everytime I hear of another IL politician finally getting caught and jailed! I watch WGN on cable just to see which politician gets busted every week! Why do you tolerate that crap?
That obvious? You gotta be @#$%tin' me? WOW... are folks in IL that stupid now or what? A personal check for a government transaction to a 'person'? In-freakin'-cerdible. So how'd you finally get yer stuff registered?
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junglebob
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Oct 6th, 2009 03:52 am |
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I seem to remember being asked to write it to George Ryan as well I made it out Secretary of State George Ryan. You can just make it out to secretary of state now. Did too many people complain? They also ask for your drivers license number when you get a title. My question is why do you need a drivers license to title a car? You could be blind and have a chauffeur. Corporations have cars titled in their names but they don't have drivers licenses.
Last edited on Tue Oct 6th, 2009 03:54 am by junglebob
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junglebob
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Oct 6th, 2009 01:43 pm |
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Sonora Rebel, You just don't understand Illinois. Our elected officials are so upright and trustworthy that when Ryan was secretary of state most folks had no qualms about making out a check in his name for a license. Oh wait, he's in jail now for fraud at the DMV and our former Governor Blagojevich has charges against him. Hmmm, Mabye all those checks made out to George Ryan didn't get into the state account.
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Oct 6th, 2009 06:42 pm |
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| Y'know... there was a time when a large mob would gather with torches, pitchforks 'n clubs... Beat down the castle doors 'n drag the miscreants out by the scruff 'n hang 'em from the nearest tree. Now... they just re-elect the same miscreants 'n Hope for Change.
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