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hardtopS2000
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Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 12:25 am |
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| Hello. I'm a new member and just wanted to ask a question. I'm advocate for CC and OC. But my question is I know open carry is legal in IN as long as you have a License to carry a handgun permit. Well, I have a Florida CCW which is honored by Indiana but does this permit allow me to Open Cary in Indiana? Or do I need to be a resident and have a LTCH permit. Thanks
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WVCDL
State Researcher
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Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 01:48 am |
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If you are an Indiana resident (please update your profile), Indiana law (I.C. § 35-47-2-21(b)) does not allow you to use another state's LTCH.
However, if you are not an Indiana resident, any license or permit from another state is valid. Indiana law does not distinguish between OC and CC, so a Florida CCW would be valid for both forms of carry in Indiana as long as you are not an Indiana resident.
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Soundslikejosh
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Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 04:03 am |
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You are required to adhere to the rules of both the issuing state and the state you are carrying in, or the more stringent of the two. If you do not have an Indiana LTCH, but are carrying in IN on a FL CCW, you cannot OC. FL does not allow you to OC, so we do not allow you to do so in IN either.
If the issuing state is more strict, you have to follow those rules while in IN.
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WVCDL
State Researcher
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Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 04:43 am |
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Soundslikejosh wrote: You are required to adhere to the rules of both the issuing state and the state you are carrying in, or the more stringent of the two. If you do not have an Indiana LTCH, but are carrying in IN on a FL CCW, you cannot OC. FL does not allow you to OC, so we do not allow you to do so in IN either.
If the issuing state is more strict, you have to follow those rules while in IN.
What legal authority do you have to support that? I have read the Indiana handgun statutes and annotations, and can find no cases to support what you have said.
I.C. § 35-47-2-21(b) provides in full, "Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana." I think you are reading way too much into the "according to the terms thereof" language in the statute. As I read it, a license is valid in Indiana if it is a current, valid license in the state of issue, and you may carry either open or concealed regardless of the laws of the issuing state. If you have a license from any other state and are not an Indiana resident, you may carry in Indiana as if you have a valid Indiana LTCH.
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Soundslikejosh
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Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 05:47 am |
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IC 35-47-2-21
Recognition of retail dealers' licenses and licenses to carry handguns issued by other states
Sec. 21. (a) Retail dealers' licenses issued by other states or foreign countries will not be recognized in Indiana except for sales at wholesale.
(b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.
A license issued by another entity will be honored, as long as the holder follows the terms of the license. In this case, that means that because a FL permit does not allow OC, a person carrying in IN with a FL license cannot OC (that would not be carrying according to the terms of FL law). I am more than willing to listen to a convincing argument to the contrary.
Regards,
Josh
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WVCDL
State Researcher
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Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 05:58 am |
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Soundslikejosh wrote: IC 35-47-2-21
Recognition of retail dealers' licenses and licenses to carry handguns issued by other states
Sec. 21. (a) Retail dealers' licenses issued by other states or foreign countries will not be recognized in Indiana except for sales at wholesale.
(b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.
A license issued by another entity will be honored, as long as the holder follows the terms of the license. In this case, that means that because a FL permit does not allow OC, a person carrying in IN with a FL license cannot OC (that would not be carrying according to the terms of FL law). I am more than willing to listen to a convincing argument to the contrary.
Regards,
Josh
I just think you're reading too much into those five words. Indiana law recognizes no distinction between OC and CC and it clearly appears to be the intent of the General Assembly to grant blanket recognition to every other state's LTCH (or similar license or permit) since Indiana law amounts to a total prohibition on the carrying or transportation of handguns without a license.
Unfortunately, it apppears we will have to agree to disagree.
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Soundslikejosh
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Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 06:15 am |
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WVCDL wrote: Soundslikejosh wrote: IC 35-47-2-21
Recognition of retail dealers' licenses and licenses to carry handguns issued by other states
Sec. 21. (a) Retail dealers' licenses issued by other states or foreign countries will not be recognized in Indiana except for sales at wholesale.
(b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.
A license issued by another entity will be honored, as long as the holder follows the terms of the license. In this case, that means that because a FL permit does not allow OC, a person carrying in IN with a FL license cannot OC (that would not be carrying according to the terms of FL law). I am more than willing to listen to a convincing argument to the contrary.
Regards,
Josh
I just think you're reading too much into those five words. Indiana law recognizes no distinction between OC and CC and it clearly appears to be the intent of the General Assembly to grant blanket recognition to every other state's LTCH (or similar license or permit) since Indiana law amounts to a total prohibition on the carrying or transportation of handguns without a license.
Unfortunately, it apppears we will have to agree to disagree.
Respectfully, Sir, it appears that way. While I prefer your interpretation as being more logical, when I read the IC I do not interpret it the same way. I do not consider it "reading into" the code, merely reading the full depth of the code. It would be a mistake to gloss over something that is printed in the law, despite the fact that the legislature did not take pains to clear up this issue. I realize that IN does not draw a distinction between OC and CC, but the issuing state does. I think it is unlikely that an individual in this circumstance would run into trouble, but that is not the question. The question is whether or not the OCer would be following the law. Sadly, it is hard enough to get Indiana LEO to understand our own law, I'd hate to see how they'd react if presented a FL CCW, which states CC. It would be unfortunate if someone walked into a sticky situation because either my or your interpretation was incorrect. At this time it appears that it could go either way, as we haven't turned up any case law to support you or I.
I am happy to hear any further discussion on this matter.
Regards,
Josh
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lockman
State Researcher
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Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 01:30 pm |
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I would rethink this one. The privileges of the license are determined by the host state, not the issuing state. Since FL's license is a concealed weapon license do I have the privilege in IN to conceal such other weapons?
If my foreign license allows carry in police stations am I afforded that privilege as a condition of my permit?
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squarepeg
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Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 02:06 pm |
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Soundslikejosh,
I have made that same arguement you have with the phase "according to the terms thereof". In my opinion the Florida permit is a conceal only. I am not a lawyer, nor have I slept at a Holiday Inn Express, but I wouldn't want to be a test case if I was wrong.
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tattedupboy
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Posted: Thu Jan 15th, 2009 03:11 am |
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Indiana honors permits from all other states, but only as long as the permit holder does not reside in Indiana. Also, it's worth noting that, because Florida's permit is a concealed weapons permit, it'll only allow you to carry concealed in Indiana, not openly.
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GetA2J
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jan 15th, 2009 11:25 pm |
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I really feel like the issue here is not whether Indiana code refers ver-batum to the issuing states statutes. Gee-whiz it is difficult enough to expect our fine Law enforcement community to know and follow Indiana's carry laws with the accuracy that we are asking about here from another state's differing laws.
But in this and several other legal matters it is prudent to err on the side of conservatism. Or to put it another way to C.Y.A.
Like Josh said. "I would NOT want to be a test case."
Just my $.02 YMMV
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JB-Indiana
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Feb 12th, 2009 10:47 pm |
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Soundslikejosh wrote: IC 35-47-2-21
Recognition of retail dealers' licenses and licenses to carry handguns issued by other states
Sec. 21. (a) Retail dealers' licenses issued by other states or foreign countries will not be recognized in Indiana except for sales at wholesale.
(b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.
A license issued by another entity will be honored, as long as the holder follows the terms of the license. In this case, that means that because a FL permit does not allow OC, a person carrying in IN with a FL license cannot OC (that would not be carrying according to the terms of FL law). I am more than willing to listen to a convincing argument to the contrary.
Regards,
Josh
IMO as someone who studied various aspects of law at the ILEA (though I am NOT a lawyer), I have to agree with Josh here. While, again, I'm NOT a lawyer, I can assure you that Indiana WOULD quite likely interpret that IC the way Josh has.
Those "five words", "according to the terms thereof", are very important, at least the way Indiana (and it's attorneys, which of course includes judges) would interpret them. Just as there's a difference between the words "shall" and "will" in law.
In this instance, in layman's terms IC 35-47-2-21 say, in essence, that Indiana will accept the license of another state as long as the holder adhere's to the terms of THAT license. That means if the terms of the license does not allow for open carry, then the licensee may not open carry in ANY state where the license is accepted.
That's what "according to the terms thereof" means. The licensee MUST adhere to whatever rules & regs the issuing State has required / imposed.
NOW, in a practical sense if I were still a beat cop and you're here from Florida with a valid Florida CCW, unless YOU'RE a problem I'm gonna look at your license and be on my way. You're allowed to carry a gun under Indiana (via Florida) law, and that's fine by me. I don't personally carry if you're carrying CC or OC, only that you're legally entitled to be armed. Good, one more good guy armed, one more guy for the bad guys to be concerned about.
Also in a practical sense, as a beat cop I'm unlikely to even know that Florida requires CC only, and prohibts OC, because I'm less likely to be familiar with Florida law than Indiana law. Indiana allows OC, Indiana says if you have a valid Florida CCW you're welcome here, then I ain't splittin' hairs on irrelevant details.
AND, I have a "defense" as a beat cop IF I'm ever challenged about letting you slide because Indiana does have OC allowed under an Indiana CCW, therefore I'm allowing the Florida CCW holder the same courtesies / rights / previliges we have provided our own licensees and by CCW reciprocity. I can say (to whomever) "Hey, YOU allow the guy here with his Florida CCW, and YOU allow OC in my State, therefore common sense says the Florida guy can carry OC here as well."
But in strict interpretation, I would have to agree with Josh.
Just my own thoughts, friends.
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NavyLT
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Feb 12th, 2009 11:17 pm |
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IC 35-47-2-21
Recognition of retail dealers' licenses and licenses to carry handguns issued by other states
Sec. 21. (a) Retail dealers' licenses issued by other states or foreign countries will not be recognized in Indiana except for sales at wholesale.
(b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.
There is a big difference between the terms associated with the CPL itself and all the other statutes a state has regarding carrying firearms. Let's look at an easier example and say the Indiana law said the same thing about other states' drivers licenses. The terms of the drivers license itself are on the license: expiration date, maybe lenses required, maybe only driving during certain hours, vehicle weight restrictions, etc. Those are associated with the license itself.
Let's say that the state the drivers license is from does not allow right turn on red light. Does that mean in Indiana you can't turn right on red if it is allowed in Indiana. No, of course not. That's because the right turn on red is a separate statute and not a term of the license.
It's the same way with CPL. The prohibition against open carrying in Florida has nothing to do with the CPL. It is a completely separate statute. A Florida resident does not have to abide by all the Florida statutes concerning carrying of firearms. They have to abide by the terms of the CPL - which they would have to do in any state anyway. If the actual term of the license was only for a certain type of firearm revolver/semi-auto or caliber - that would have to abided by regardless of what state was being visited. All the other Florida statutes, though, mean nothing when the party is physically located in Indiana, just like the traffic laws of Florida would not apply.
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JB-Indiana
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Feb 13th, 2009 01:38 am |
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NavyLT wrote: IC 35-47-2-21
Recognition of retail dealers' licenses and licenses to carry handguns issued by other states
Sec. 21. (a) Retail dealers' licenses issued by other states or foreign countries will not be recognized in Indiana except for sales at wholesale.
(b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.
There is a big difference between the terms associated with the CPL itself and all the other statutes a state has regarding carrying firearms. Let's look at an easier example and say the Indiana law said the same thing about other states' drivers licenses. The terms of the drivers license itself are on the license: expiration date, maybe lenses required, maybe only driving during certain hours, vehicle weight restrictions, etc. Those are associated with the license itself.
Let's say that the state the drivers license is from does not allow right turn on red light. Does that mean in Indiana you can't turn right on red if it is allowed in Indiana. No, of course not. That's because the right turn on red is a separate statute and not a term of the license.
It's the same way with CPL. The prohibition against open carrying in Florida has nothing to do with the CPL. It is a completely separate statute. A Florida resident does not have to abide by all the Florida statutes concerning carrying of firearms. They have to abide by the terms of the CPL - which they would have to do in any state anyway. If the actual term of the license was only for a certain type of firearm revolver/semi-auto or caliber - that would have to abided by regardless of what state was being visited. All the other Florida statutes, though, mean nothing when the party is physically located in Indiana, just like the traffic laws of Florida would not apply.
The example of right turn on red driving is not the same. Apples and oranges, and we're not talking about right turn on red anyway, with all due respect.
IC 35-47-2-21(b) is very specific, and as someone who has been through the process of interpreting such laws you can be virtually assured that if such a case were ever come to the forefront, Indiana would interpret this law as meaning that if your FL CCW prohibits you from carrying OC in Florida, then likewise you could NOT carry OC in Indiana, due to the terms of the Florida CCW.
Again, I can't really see that ever coming to issue, 'cause unless the Florida licensee's permit specifically states on it "OC prohibited" or something, how would the inquiring officer even know? He / she MAY know the specifics of ALL gun laws in ALL States, but it's unlikely. The officer's gonna think "Indiana has CC or OC carry, Indiana accepts FL CCW's, it's all good", essentially.
But IC 35-47-2-21(b) does specifically state that Indiana will accept a license / licensee from another State (in this case, Florida), upon the condition ("according to the terms thereof") that the licensee adhere to the terms of the license as provided by the issuing State. In other words, the "other" State issued you the permit, and you agreed to adhere to the "rules" that go along with that permit. Therefore, while you are in Indiana, you need to adhere to Indiana laws AND the rules of your permit.
Of course, not sure about a similarly worded law in any other State, but I can virtually guarantee that's how Indiana will interpret it. I've checked many, many permits in my time, and I looked to see if it's valid (and non-expired), and the person I'm checking matches the person named on the CCW. All good? Have a great time while you're in our State, sir. I'm not about to get in to splitting hairs (even if I DO happen to know the Florida "exclusion", which I do, LOL) with a decent, law-abiding visitor to my State who's a legitimate CCW holder in his own. Glad to have ya on "our" side, there's not enough of us as it is.
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GetA2J
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Feb 13th, 2009 04:40 pm |
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Thank you JB Indiana that is a great attitude to have!
I hope that the relationship can continue to flourish between Law Enforcement and the law abiding armed public.
I for ne have a great respect for the Law enforcement community.
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openryan
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue Feb 24th, 2009 12:02 am |
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Soundslikejosh wrote: You are required to adhere to the rules of both the issuing state and the state you are carrying in, or the more stringent of the two. If you do not have an Indiana LTCH, but are carrying in IN on a FL CCW, you cannot OC. FL does not allow you to OC, so we do not allow you to do so in IN either.
If the issuing state is more strict, you have to follow those rules while in IN.
This is the correct information.
If you are a visitor in Indiana, basically anything besides a resident, and you have a gun permit from your home state, in this case Florida, you must obey the Florida license rules, or the more stringent rules of the two states.
Basically if you have a Florida resident permit and are in indiana which give you reciprocity, but no indiana permit you must obey the rules of the permit you have, unless the reciprocating state has more stringent rules, even if the reciprocating state like indiana has more laxed rules, you still may not take advantage of this, as you do not have the indiana permit.
If you have a florida res permit and no indiana license you may only conceal carry if that is what your fl license allows you to do in your home state. If you wanted to open carry you would need an indiana permit as well.
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openryan
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue Feb 24th, 2009 12:04 am |
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openryan wrote: Soundslikejosh wrote: You are required to adhere to the rules of both the issuing state and the state you are carrying in, or the more stringent of the two. If you do not have an Indiana LTCH, but are carrying in IN on a FL CCW, you cannot OC. FL does not allow you to OC, so we do not allow you to do so in IN either.
If the issuing state is more strict, you have to follow those rules while in IN.
This is the correct information.
If you are a visitor in Indiana, basically anything besides a resident, and you have a gun permit from your home state, in this case Florida, you must obey the Florida license rules, or the more stringent rules of the two states.
Basically if you have a Florida resident permit and are in indiana which give you reciprocity, but no indiana permit you must obey the rules of the permit you have, unless the reciprocating state has more stringent rules, even if the reciprocating state like indiana has more laxed rules, you still may not take advantage of this, as you do not have the indiana permit.
If you have a florida res permit and no indiana license you may only conceal carry if that is what your fl license allows you to do in your home state. If you wanted to open carry you would need an indiana permit as well.
I noticed some of you brought up the point that if you got stopped in indiana in this situation the officer probably would not know the specifics, and just that indiana does reciprocate with florida's CCW, not the illegality of OC with just the florida ccw.
This is probably the case with 90%< or more of the officers, but it is probably prudent to ccw, unless you have an indiana license in this case as well, c-y-a.
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Venator
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Mar 19th, 2009 04:17 pm |
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hardtopS2000 wrote: Hello. I'm a new member and just wanted to ask a question. I'm advocate for CC and OC. But my question is I know open carry is legal in IN as long as you have a License to carry a handgun permit. Well, I have a Florida CCW which is honored by Indiana but does this permit allow me to Open Cary in Indiana? Or do I need to be a resident and have a LTCH permit. Thanks
Recieved this from the ISP. I was asking about a Michigan CPL while in Indiana.
Dear Mr. Jeffs:
Indiana honors all other states handgun license while visiting or passing through our state. Our law does not state that your weapon has to be concealed or unconcealed. Being concealed does not draw attention to you or make people feel uneasy. You may check this web site for more information. http://www.in.gov/isp and go under firearms to see what it has. Also, this web site: http://www.ai.org/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/index.html
If you have any other questions, please let us know.
Thanks,
Sandy Stark Indiana State Police Firearms Section Indiana Government Center North 100 N Senate Ave
Indianapolis, IN 46204 317-232-8264[size=]
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Tue Mar 24th, 2009 07:38 pm |
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Soundslikejosh wrote: You are required to adhere to the rules of both the issuing state and the state you are carrying in, or the more stringent of the two. If you do not have an Indiana LTCH, but are carrying in IN on a FL CCW, you cannot OC. FL does not allow you to OC, so we do not allow you to do so in IN either.
If the issuing state is more strict, you have to follow those rules while in IN.
This is not correct.
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Task Force 16
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Fri Mar 27th, 2009 04:35 am |
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| Have y'all heard the phrase, "When in Paris..................."?
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