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GLOCKMAN40
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Mar 20th, 2009 05:16 pm |
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Law is order, and good law is good order," Aristotle said. Without doubt, Florida's recently enacted "Castle Doctrine" law is good law, casting a common-sense light onto the debate over the right of self-defense. It reverses the pendulum that for too long has swung in the direction of protecting the rights of criminals over the rights of their victims. Despite predictable howling from the anti-gun media elite that Florida was taking an unprecedented and dangerous action, in truth it joined 24 other states that reject "duty-to-retreat" laws.
Passed overwhelmingly in the state legislature--unanimously in the Senate and 94-20 in the House--;the new law removes the "duty to retreat" when citizens are outside of their homes and where they have legal right to be. It says that if a criminal breaks into your home or occupied vehicle or a place where you are camping overnight, for example, you may presume that he is there to do bodily harm and use any force, including deadly force, to protect yourself from a violent attack. Floridians who defend themselves from criminal attack are shielded by the new law from criminal prosecution and from civil suits brought by their attackers.
In testifying for the bill, Marion P. Hammer, executive director of Unified Sportsmen of Florida, said: "No one knows what is in the twisted mind of a violent criminal. You can't expect a victim to wait before taking action to protect herself and say: 'Excuse me, Mr. Criminal, did you drag me into this alley to rape and kill me or do you just want to beat me up and steal my purse?'"
Florida's "Castle Doctrine" law does the following:
One: It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, so the occupant may use force, including deadly force, against that person.
Two: It removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others.
Three: It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force. It also prohibits criminals and their families from suing victims for injuring or killing the criminals who have attacked them. In short, it gives rights back to law-abiding people and forces judges and prosecutors to focus on protecting victims.
Posted: 2/6/2006 12:00:00 AM..... Here in the great state of INDIANA where we can carry concealed or open carry is a great thing, we are free to do both with our LTCH = " License To Carry Handgun State Of Indiana " which means you can carry any way you want , it is not a concealed carry license or permit, the state police will tell you that they would like for you to conceal your weapon, WHY ? , Because each and every time a leo see's you , you will be asked for your " License To Carry Handgun State Of Indiana " .
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" A WELL REGULATED MILITIA BEING NECESSARY TO THE SECURITY OF A FREE STATE, THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED "
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ralphb72
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Dec 7th, 2006 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 152 |
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Posted: Fri Mar 20th, 2009 07:27 pm |
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I have never been asked for my LTCH.
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GLOCKMAN40
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Mar 20th, 2009 08:05 pm |
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| If you open carry and a leo see you he will ask for you LTCH, he will then unload your weapon, empty all rounds in the mag. , and run a check on you to see if you are ok , then if everything is cool he will hand you back everything as is and off you go . its happen to me This is protocol. But this post has nothing to do with you being asked for your LTCH, Last edited on Fri Mar 20th, 2009 08:07 pm by GLOCKMAN40
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ralphb72
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Dec 7th, 2006 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 152 |
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Posted: Sat Mar 21st, 2009 07:36 pm |
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Yes, I understand what you are saying, however that has not been my experience so far open carrying, not even a second glance from LEO's.
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Anderson, IN
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Apr 9th, 2009 07:25 pm |
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| The ONLY time I have ever been questioned by a LEO he noticed that I was carrying and waited outside for me by his car. He just asked for my permit and then my drivers license to match it with. He then sent me on my way with just a final question of "Can you hit what you shoot at?" As I was walking away I answered "I haven't had any complaints yet!" He laughed, I got back in my car and went on my way! That was 4 years ago at a Village Pantry!
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IndianaBoy79
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Dec 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Eagle, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 477 |
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Posted: Sat Apr 11th, 2009 08:16 am |
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It's my understanding that without PC (probable cause of a crime in action or an imminent crime) that stopping you and asking for your LTCH would be an unlawful order. Unless there is something else besides the gun, ie. are you wielding the gun, are you wearing a ski mask in june, etc, then there is no PC. It would be like pulling someone over because they are driving a car. Driving a car is a perfectly legal activity and they need to have more reason than you just driving it to stop you. Carrying a gun is perfectly legal as well and shouldn't be questioned without further cause.
This being said, I would comply with any command, not argue with the cop, and file a complaint and fight it in the court system later if I felt oblidged to do so. No reason to go to jail tonight unless you're ready to fight charges.
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Phoenixphire
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 11:54 am |
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GLOCKMAN40 wrote: If you open carry and a leo see you he will ask for you LTCH, he will then unload your weapon, empty all rounds in the mag. , and run a check on you to see if you are ok , then if everything is cool he will hand you back everything as is and off you go . its happen to me This is protocol. But this post has nothing to do with you being asked for your LTCH,
Hmmm...
Disturbing.
First, no LEO should be stopping you for simply open carrying. Open Carry (with LTCH) is legal in Indiana, and unless the officer has a reason to believe that you do not have a LTCH, the officer has no justification to detain you.
The officer is to presume that you ARE legally carrying, until such time as he has reason to believe otherwise.
Second, the officer should most definitely not be handing your weapon, much less emptying rounds, and "running checks".
Giving illegal activities fancy names does not make them less illegal. "Protocol", in this case, is simply an attempt to bully one into compliance.
Third, in relation to the above, Indiana is a "clean carry" state. There is no legal requirement to carry identification or your LTCH on you. That little pink card is only a verification of your license, not the actual license itself. The actual license is not a physical object; rather, it is permission granted to perform an action that would be illegal otherwise.
If an officer attempts to detain you, much less run a background check or handle your weapon, in the name of "protocol", you should immediately ask the officer to request a supervisor at the scene.
THE LAWFUL CARRY OF A FIREARM is not subject to questioning. I urge you not to allow bullying to occur. Each time an officer "gets away with it", it makes it easier for him/her to bully the next person.
Last edited on Wed May 27th, 2009 11:54 am by Phoenixphire
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Skippy
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sat Jul 7th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indianapolis |
| Posts: | 119 |
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 11:59 am |
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Phoenixphire wrote:
Third, in relation to the above, Indiana is a "clean carry" state. There is no legal requirement to carry identification or your LTCH on you.
IC 35-47-2-1
Carrying a handgun without a license or by person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsection (b) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body, except in the person's dwelling, on the person's property or fixed place of business, without a license issued under this chapter being in the person's possession.
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Phoenixphire
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 03:08 pm |
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Skippy wrote: Phoenixphire wrote:
Third, in relation to the above, Indiana is a "clean carry" state. There is no legal requirement to carry identification or your LTCH on you.
IC 35-47-2-1
Carrying a handgun without a license or by person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsection (b) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body, except in the person's dwelling, on the person's property or fixed place of business, without a license issued under this chapter being in the person's possession.
First, let me apologize. My statement was not clear.
There is no requirement in Indiana to present your LTCH to an officer on their demand.
Additionally, Indiana has no identification requirement, other than IC 34-28-5-3, which requires identification once a "Terry Stop" has already occurred.
As to "being in the person's possession", one must ask what constitutes possession. I possess many things, even though I don't have them on my person at all times. I possess a computer, a television, clothes, etc., even though those items may be on a desk, entertainment center, and in my closet.
Further, as the statue uses different language regarding the actual physical possession of a handgun, referring to such action as "carry" and not "possess", my reading of this statue is that it requires one to have had a LTCH issued (therefore "owning" it; creating "possession") more than to physically carry the pink card.
In other words, my "license issued under this chapter" is in "the person's possession" simply by having it issued to me, not by physically carrying it on me.
Back to the original point: There is no legal basis for an officer to stop and ask you for identification simply because you have a firearm.
Last edited on Wed May 27th, 2009 03:20 pm by Phoenixphire
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Skippy
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| Joined: | Sat Jul 7th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indianapolis |
| Posts: | 119 |
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 04:02 pm |
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While I agree with your assessment regarding presentation of ID or LTCH, I think the "possession" argument is a technicality that you are not likely to win if and when it goes to court. It's probable that you would be arrested and charged if you were carrying without having your LTCH physically with you. The charges MAY be dropped if your LTCH is subsequently produced, but I wouldn't want to gamble on it.
I'm trying to find case law to support my assertion, but I haven't found anything specific yet. I'm sure I've read at least one case of this type, though. If I can track it down, I'll present it.
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Phoenixphire
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 04:12 pm |
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Since the definition of "possession" is not contained within the statute, one would look to Merriam-Webster.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/possession
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/possess
I think that having had a LTCH issued would constitute possession, as defined by Merriam-Webster.
Last edited on Wed May 27th, 2009 04:14 pm by Phoenixphire
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