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ghengis86
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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 03:39 pm |
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Anderson, IN wrote: Just got this reply from the Chief in Highland asking if they had any specific statutes limiting open carry as I was going to be in the area soon! I also passed on the link to our web site!
He stated:
"We are aware of the law...there are no local statutes. Please refer to the Indiana State Police web site for further information as they regulate firearms permits. Thank you. Have a wonderful day!"
Well chief if you are aware please make sure your officers aware!
yeah, the commander told me the chief had gotten an e-mail from a 'concerned citizen'; I figured it was you! the commander said something to the affect of, "someone e-mailed the chief about this particular situation; i wonder how they heard about it..."
I said, "hmm...interesting"
I'm sure they'll be making their officers aware of this, and I can confirm this too; i have to close friends that are partol officers with the department. i haven't spoken to them about my incident yet, nor have i brought them up when talking about this with the commander. dont' want to blow the cover on my confidential informants!
edit: well, it shouldn't take long until they find this thread. i guess my cover will be blown too...Last edited on Fri May 29th, 2009 03:41 pm by ghengis86
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ghengis86
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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 03:50 pm |
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| and I'm going to be at the department at 3pm today to talk with the commander and detective. i'll post an update later tonight
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ghengis86
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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 10:56 pm |
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| just got back from the meeting; i don't have time for a full update right now, but it started off rough and ended up great. a real victory today.
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Anderson, IN
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat May 30th, 2009 02:24 am |
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ghengis86 wrote: just got back from the meeting; i don't have time for a full update right now, but it started off rough and ended up great. a real victory today.
Sounds great! Keep us posted!
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ghengis86
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Posted: Sat May 30th, 2009 04:14 pm |
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Okay, here’s how it all went down.
I met the commander and detective in the commander’s office and we sat down to go over what happened and the status of open carry in Indiana. The commander started off by saying again that I was completely in the right. I thanked him for researching this as thoroughly as he did and then I took a minute or two to just explain how poorly I thought the detective handled the situation. The det. was defensive and our discussion got a little heated (“I never threatened you with arrest” “You were yelling too”). He also said that if a cop sees a gun they have a right to ask for your permit. Again, I said yes, you can ask, but I don’t have to show you. I made the point that only if he has reasonable articulable suspicion that I was or am committing a crime could he compel me to show my permit. We went the copy of the IC 35-47-2 (since he insisted that it was in there) I brought with me, and the commander produced some law enforcement FAQ/guidelines that they were basing the “you have to show me your permit if I ask”. However, when we read the guidelines together, I made sure to clearly point out that it said that they may ask for your permit only if they feel you’ve been involved in an incident (RAS) or if they’re investigating a disturbance. I also made the point that they can’t stop every Mexican on the street and ask for a driver’s license, just because some may be illegal aliens.
The commander then said that if I wish to file an official complaint that there is a procedure that he can explain and if I wish to file charges, there is another procedure to take. I said that I have no intention of dragging the detective through the mud and that I only brought up the relevant codes to underscore the seriousness of the incident.
This is where the discussion became very productive.
I explained to them that “we’re on the same team. I hate murderers, rapists, robbers and criminals just as much as you do. I take the law and the safety of my family very seriously. We have the same goals.” Etc. etc. etc. The detective said that they deal with scum all day, everyday and can understandably be on edge whenever they see a firearm. He said every call could be a life or death situation. I said I understood, but that as a citizen, I sometimes get the same feeling towards LE. I referenced the two Chicago cops that in the past two months, killed a couple people in separate drunk driving incidents as well as the BART subway murder (which they knew about), so I got some head nods in agreement and “True, that’s right”.
He also said they never get good press, only bad press. “You could save 100 lives and only get a few lines in the paper, but one bad cop abuses a perp and it’s front page news”. I said I understand, but that conversely, there are tens of thousands of cases a year where citizens use firearms to stop a crime or protect their homes, but the media only reports the time where a guy goes crazy and shoots up a post office or school. Again, they nodded in agreement and said they understood that it goes both ways.
The detective said that he meant no disrespect to me or my family and was sorry for the way things escalated and I said that I wasn’t out to get him or press charges and after we left the room, I would consider it water under the bridge. We shook hands and ended with a bit more respect for each other than when we entered, I’m guessing.
There’s a lot more that we talked about that I left out here, but we discussed the 2A, other states carry laws, gary’s grandfather prohibition on carrying (passed before pre-emption) which they were somewhat surprised to learn, self protection, home defense, crime rising during recession/depressions, a local incident where a couple used a gun to stop a robbery, another local incident where the cops shot a man threatening them with an AK, and lots of other pertinent issues.
All in all, it turned out better than I hoped and was a great opportunity to learn a few things, both for the LE and myself.
Epilogue: The commander showed me an e-mail he sent to the entire department on open carrying and how it is permitted by those with a LTCH. I briefly spoke to the chief as well and he was very receptive and accommodating.
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aikidoka
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Posted: Sat May 30th, 2009 04:21 pm |
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| Good job!!
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Prometheus
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat May 30th, 2009 07:30 pm |
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Ghengis: AWESOME follow thru!
I am in that Meijer once or twice a week and usually OC about half the time. I've never had an issue...
I'm glad to know I won't have to worry about Highland PD not knowing the law.
I'm honestly surprised I haven't encountered some problem before now considering they didn't know... I do almost all my shopping in Highland and Munster. I know more than one Highland cop has seen me OC'ing in placing like the bestbuy and Target across the street. I had a female HPD officer behind me in line at Target one night. Not a peep.
Anyway, awesome stuff I'm glad to see positive outcomes!
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Anderson, IN
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat May 30th, 2009 08:01 pm |
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Thanks for the reply and the follow up!
Folks this information about open carry isn't going to get out on it's own!
We ALL must we will to following up, send emails, ask questions as to why in a productive professional manner! 
When I read about situations such as this I send out an email to the chief (google the department for email information) stating that I heard about a situation (often post the link) and then tell them that I am often in that area and would like to know if they have statutes that prevent open carrying as allowed by law (and the put the Indiana State Police FAQ link).
I then continue to follow up until I get an answer, but in a polite, professional and nonthreatening mode!
GREAT JOB ghengis86!
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mastiff69
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat May 30th, 2009 09:31 pm |
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This is the way it should always end up, with each side learning that we do have a common goal, to be safe and to put the bad guys in check.
The more we open carry, the more the people will learn that the honest people are not the problem, But the criminals are.....
We the people as it starts out, Not we the criminals.....
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Prometheus
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat May 30th, 2009 11:54 pm |
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Anderson, IN wrote: Thanks for the reply and the follow up!
Folks this information about open carry isn't going to get out on it's own!
We ALL must we will to following up, send emails, ask questions as to why in a productive professional manner!
When I read about situations such as this I send out an email to the chief (google the department for email information) stating that I heard about a situation (often post the link) and then tell them that I am often in that area and would like to know if they have statutes that prevent open carrying as allowed by law (and the put the Indiana State Police FAQ link).
I then continue to follow up until I get an answer, but in a polite, professional and nonthreatening mode!
GREAT JOB ghengis86!
Keep in mind a few things Anderson:
* cities have ordinances, NOT statues.
* preemption. Cities can only regulate firearms ON city owned property (which can include city owned parks). They cannot ban carry (in any form) on public streets or at the Meijer for example. ---The one exemption is Speedway, IN that has a grandfathered law about CC being illegal, even though no one has ever been prosecuted. OC is legal.
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Anderson, IN
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun May 31st, 2009 04:14 am |
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Prometheus wrote: Anderson, IN wrote: Thanks for the reply and the follow up!
Folks this information about open carry isn't going to get out on it's own!
We ALL must we will to following up, send emails, ask questions as to why in a productive professional manner!
When I read about situations such as this I send out an email to the chief (google the department for email information) stating that I heard about a situation (often post the link) and then tell them that I am often in that area and would like to know if they have statutes that prevent open carrying as allowed by law (and the put the Indiana State Police FAQ link).
I then continue to follow up until I get an answer, but in a polite, professional and nonthreatening mode!
GREAT JOB ghengis86!
Keep in mind a few things Anderson:
* cities have ordinances, NOT statues.
* preemption. Cities can only regulate firearms ON city owned property (which can include city owned parks). They cannot ban carry (in any form) on public streets or at the Meijer for example. ---The one exemption is Speedway, IN that has a grandfathered law about CC being illegal, even though no one has ever been prosecuted. OC is legal.
Thanks for the tip!
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ghengis86
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 04:05 pm |
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another update:
yesterday, an off-duty county deputy tried to tell me to cover my gun again (highland Target). He kept flashing me his badge and other than being a giant tool, wasn't too dick-ish.(my wife thought this guy must have been picked on in high school!). I'm getting used to this now and am not getting so ticked off anymore; they're just ignorant. I told him I just went through this with the local PD and explained the outcome in brief. I told him to call the local PD and have a nice night and walked away. While going through the chekcout line, he was next to me and said, "I talked to the local PD and you're right. Just be ready to get stopped by every cop when you're out."
I said, "if that's what it takes for you guys to learn the Indiana Code, then I don't mind."
everything was cordial and went well, and one more LE is aware of open carry.
I also got this e-mail from the local PD's commander that I met with:
"It was a pleasure meeting you and I appreciate the e-mail. I did receive a call from the County officer and I informed him of the change in the law. I told him he better let his Officers know as well. I e-mailed as many of the Departments as I could however, not all area Departments are on the same system as us so I have been spreading the word whenever I get them on the phone or bump into them. Also, if you have a problem again please feel free to give the person my name, I do not have a problem with that at all. Stop in and see us anytime ! "
woot woot
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Anderson, IN
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 04:41 pm |
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ghengis86 wrote: another update:
yesterday, an off-duty county deputy tried to tell me to cover my gun again (highland Target). He kept flashing me his badge and other than being a giant tool, wasn't too dick-ish.(my wife thought this guy must have been picked on in high school!). I'm getting used to this now and am not getting so ticked off anymore; they're just ignorant. I told him I just went through this with the local PD and explained the outcome in brief. I told him to call the local PD and have a nice night and walked away. While going through the chekcout line, he was next to me and said, "I talked to the local PD and you're right. Just be ready to get stopped by every cop when you're out."
I said, "if that's what it takes for you guys to learn the Indiana Code, then I don't mind."
everything was cordial and went well, and one more LE is aware of open carry.
I also got this e-mail from the local PD's commander that I met with:
"It was a pleasure meeting you and I appreciate the e-mail. I did receive a call from the County officer and I informed him of the change in the law. I told him he better let his Officers know as well. I e-mailed as many of the Departments as I could however, not all area Departments are on the same system as us so I have been spreading the word whenever I get them on the phone or bump into them. Also, if you have a problem again please feel free to give the person my name, I do not have a problem with that at all. Stop in and see us anytime ! "
woot woot
AMERICAN'S IN ACTION!!!
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
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Skippy
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| Location: | Indianapolis |
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 06:27 pm |
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He keeps referring to it as a "change in the law" as though this is something new that Indiana has implemented. Hasn't OC been legal since like the '60s? I can't find any reference to it ever being illegal, much less when its status would have changed.
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ghengis86
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 06:38 pm |
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Skippy wrote: He keeps referring to it as a "change in the law" as though this is something new that Indiana has implemented. Hasn't OC been legal since like the '60s? I can't find any reference to it ever being illegal, much less when its status would have changed.
that's what i thought too, but haven't been able to find anything. there's references below the IC 35-47-2 as to when it was revised, but i can't find anything on what those revisions were
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BB62
State Researcher
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 08:00 pm |
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Nice job, ghengis86!!
One question - for us non-Indianans - if one has a concealed carry license from another state, are we required to conceal in Indiana?
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SpringerXDacp
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 06:30 am |
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BB62 wrote: Nice job, ghengis86!!
One question - for us non-Indianans - if one has a concealed carry license from another state, are we required to conceal in Indiana?
According to ISP, licensed, non-residents of Indiana are not required to CC. Last year Venator contacted ISP regarding this issue, but I can't find the relevant thread in the Michigan sub-forum.
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Jubbie
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 12:42 pm |
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Hopefully my situation with the Hammond PD goes as smoothly as yours did with Highland. You might have had it easier though with it being a regular cop as the person in the wrong, I have to go up against the Chief himself. When I called the station they didn't offer to check into it for me, but told me to call ISP. I don't think they're going to like a citizen calling their superiors on them though, but it was his idea.
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Anderson, IN
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 02:30 pm |
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Jubbie wrote: Hopefully my situation with the Hammond PD goes as smoothly as yours did with Highland. You might have had it easier though with it being a regular cop as the person in the wrong, I have to go up against the Chief himself. When I called the station they didn't offer to check into it for me, but told me to call ISP. I don't think they're going to like a citizen calling their superiors on them though, but it was his idea.
If they give you any hassle just turn the table on them.................
IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE!!!
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ghengis86
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 03:37 pm |
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FYI - Show this to any and all LE's.
From the ISP website http://www.in.gov/isp/files/firearms_FAQ_02_08.pdf
Does Indiana statute require me to carry the handgun on my person concealed or
exposed?
Indiana law is silent on this issue; however, carrying an exposed weapon in public may
alarm some people. Also, the right to carry a firearm may be restricted on private
property and businesses by the owners. Be attentive for signs warning of restricted
areas when carrying firearms into public places. If approached by law enforcement for
official business such as traffic stops or complaint related inquiries, it is recommended
that you tell the officer in a non-threatening manner that you are carrying a weapon or
have a weapon in the vehicle and that you have a valid permit. A law enforcement
officer does have the right to inspect the permit.
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