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Statesman
Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 01:25 am |
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After reading the Jefferson county post about the police officers with a mild case of an authoritarian attitude, I thought it would be a good idea to suggest a more organized approach with OC in Kentucky to this group, until such a time LEOs in KY have been properly reprimanded and educated on the 2nd amendment, and the KY constitution.
In reading a forum on another website, someone suggested contacting a defense attorney before one has to defend himself against an attacker. In choosing the attorney, the poster suggested finding one that has had at least a dozen or so successful cases in a defensive situation. I thought this was good advice.
I am suggesting the same here, but with a different premptive approach. We apparently have a situation with certain LEOs that are determined to harass citizens who OC. This needs to be stopped.
I have seen this asinine argument of "creating a disturbance, or panic" more than once in these forums, and this is clearly a case of abuse of power, when there is no panic or disturbance. Besides, ignorant people who panic, should not undermine my rights to OC. I believe with the right evidence, a judge can clearly throw these cases out, and the complaints we file as individuals (or a group?), can get these officers reprimanded. I prefer fired, when it comes to violating my rights. Losing their job should make "abusive" LEOs think twice about harassing law abiding citizens.
This is not about being disrespectful to LEO, or having hostile intent here. I have alot of respect for the majority of police officers, however I despise abusive government. Kentucky is a gun friendly state. It's the people's responsibility to utilize the system to put an end to this abuse.
Additionally, if agreed upon, we should consider establishing a Kentucky OC YouTube channel, as they have done in New Hampshire (see http://www.youtube.com/user/RidleyReport) to expose police harassment and abuse. The use of Flip video cameras will capture any abuse, and expose the harassment to the public, where it belongs.
Any takers, comments / suggestions ?
Statesman
Last edited on Mon Jul 21st, 2008 03:33 am by Statesman
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RIAShooter
Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 08:12 pm |
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| I'm up for it, what would be the initial cost and procedure? It might be something to discuss at the OC get together.
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Statesman
Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 11:58 pm |
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RIAShooter wrote: I'm up for it, what would be the initial cost and procedure? It might be something to discuss at the OC get together.
I'm actually looking at this as a long term project. Right now, I'm simply polling the group for support of the idea, of which I will need to further define and expand upon soon. If there is a consensus for support, then I'd start a formal project plan, since there is a defined beginning and end for this kind of effort. Cost estimates & activity planning would be defined during the planning phase. I would estimate up front that we would need to have a good number of willing & paying participants in order to pay for the services of an attorney.
I can immediately identify two constraints will make or break such a project:
- An objective, competent attorney for guidance and legal defense.
- A defined number of law abiding, contributing OCers, supporters and/or financers, who understand the goals of the project.
I agree that this is something that needs to be discussed at an upcoming OC get together. While I don't see a need to jump into this topic immediately, I recognize it does give Kentuckians a reason to come to the OC get together.
Two further questions for the group.
- Where are OC rights defined by law in KY, or what court cases imply an implicit right to OC?
- How many members do we have currently?
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N00blet45
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 03:22 pm |
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KRS 237 is the chapter on firearms. No mention of "open carry" is made in the state code. So, since it is not against the law it must be considered legal. Also the Kentucky constitution's bill of rights says this:
Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.
It says that the state has power to regulate concealed carry but does not mention regulation of open carry as being within the state's power.
Note that there are at least two statutes I know of that are related to the carrying of firearms that are outside of KRS 237. They are KRS 527.070 which deals with possession of a firearm on school property and 244.125 which is the prohibition of a loaded firearm at a bar.
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ilbob
Activist Member
| Joined: | Tue May 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 634 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 04:32 pm |
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The Kentucky OC group should organize behind an attorney to put an end to OC harassment by LEO, until such a time LEOs are properly reprimanded and systematically educated on the 2nd Ammendment, and the KY Constitution.
I would suggest focusing far less on the "reprimanded" side of things and more on the education side. Its been a long time in a lot of areas since cops have seen people open carrying. People (and cops are people) naturally do not like things they are not familiar with.
I suggest a well drafted letter to the chiefs and sheriffs that reminds them in a thoughtful and polite way just what the law actually is. Lawyers are generally good at drafting such letters.
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RIAShooter
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 02:09 am |
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N00blet45 wrote: KRS 237 is the chapter on firearms. No mention of "open carry" is made in the state code. So, since it is not against the law it must be considered legal. Also the Kentucky constitution's bill of rights says this:
Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.
It says that the state has power to regulate concealed carry but does not mention regulation of open carry as being within the state's power.
Note that there are at least two statutes I know of that are related to the carrying of firearms that are outside of KRS 237. They are KRS 527.070 which deals with possession of a firearm on school property and 244.125 which is the prohibition of a loaded firearm at a bar.
Exactly...To steal someone elses quote from another topic, laws don't tell us what we can do, they only tell us what we cannot do, and the exceptions to that. So there is not a law against openly carrying then it is legal, but don't you dare try to walk down the street with ice cream in your back pocket as that is clearly ILLEGAL in Kentucky.
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Statesman
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 12:49 pm |
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ilbob wrote: The Kentucky OC group should organize behind an attorney to put an end to OC harassment by LEO, until such a time LEOs are properly reprimanded and systematically educated on the 2nd Ammendment, and the KY Constitution.
I would suggest focusing far less on the "reprimanded" side of things and more on the education side. Its been a long time in a lot of areas since cops have seen people open carrying. People (and cops are people) naturally do not like things they are not familiar with.
I suggest a well drafted letter to the chiefs and sheriffs that reminds them in a thoughtful and polite way just what the law actually is. Lawyers are generally good at drafting such letters.
I agree on this. One of the first milestones to reach would be a letter writing campaign, along with requests for education on the topic. Then, after a period of time, addressing any leftover harassment and abuse should be dealt with by demands for reprimand, or termination, depending on the severity of the abuse.
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Statesman
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 12:56 pm |
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RIAShooter wrote:
Exactly...To steal someone elses quote from another topic, laws don't tell us what we can do, they only tell us what we cannot do, and the exceptions to that. So there is not a law against openly carrying then it is legal, but don't you dare try to walk down the street with ice cream in your back pocket as that is clearly ILLEGAL in Kentucky.
Another way to define it, I think, is that laws either compel actions or prevent them.
So then, if there is not a law that declares an explicit right to OC, then how does the fact that it's not outlawed impact OC in general? Is there a right, or only the freedom to OC? Is there a difference between a right or a freedom?
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jbradford1
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 02:37 pm |
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It might be good for someone to draft a form letter that we all could use in our respective counties / cities.
Because there are so many counties why not start at the top? Who or what agencies could be "lettered" with the intent of filtering down to the local LEO?
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jbradford1
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 09:05 pm |
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This is a copy of my post a few minutes ago in the N. KY. get together...
Just got back from shooting...FYI...I stopped by the Campbell County Police Dept. and spoke with the Assistant Police Chief about an OC Picnic in one of the local parks. Of course he said he thought that firearms were not permitted in any Ky. parks he said he would research the statues and if necessary will put me in touch w/ the Co. Attorney to clarify the results. This guy was great! He is a class III firearms dealer himself. He sells machine guns and sound suppressors to folks like us. He said that as far as the County was concerned ...if it turns out to be ok...we would have absolutely no trouble from him or his people....he did suggest...only suggest that if we did meet that for our own safety we didn't chamber a round. Sounded like good advice if you want to take it. He is going to get back with me on it. So....lets hope for the best and prepare for a rebuttal to the Co. Attorneys office....possibly in writing...as I may not the best person to represent our cause in that venue. (See below paragraph). I will give it a shot..or I should say "try" If I must, and trust me..I will not yank any chains! Polite conversation and possibly ask for some research to be done. So I guess I need to find some info on KY parks in these forums?
Any advice?
The Assistant Chief said, "Mr. Bradford, aren't you from Newport, KY.? "Yes Sir" I replied. He said, "I was a Newport Police Officer years ago and I thought I remembered you!" Quickly I added, "Yes sir, but I turned my life over to the Lord Jesus back in 99 and my whole life turned around.'...Duh! He had me for a minute...my brain zingged! But it all turned out very well...and I did not lie. I am a Christian...and have made amends.
By the end of the conversation he said that if most people would just come in and talk like adults and not start screaming about rights things would go so much smoother.... Lets try it!
Let me see if he gets back within a few days and see where this goes? OK?
This could be great! County Police shares dispatch with all the towns in the County, I think. If it clears with them everyone else should follow?? Maybe??
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N00blet45
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 09:42 pm |
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What did he mean by "he did suggest...only suggest that if we did meet that for our own safety we didn't chamber a round."? Is he saying that we shouldn't have our firearms loaded or that we shouldn't chamber a round in public? I can understand the latter, I would never do that in public since that could most definitely be construed as an act of aggression and/or intimidation. The former though, how does carrying an unloaded weapon make me safer? I haven't shot myself yet and I've had a loaded weapon near me all the time for nearly 3 years.
As far as local parks are concerned. I scanned over KRS Chapters 97 and 148, the only I see specifically dealing with parks and nothing in them gives local authorities the power to regulate the carrying of firearms in parks. Also KRS 65.870 prohibits local governments from making laws regulating any aspect of firearms.
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superdemon
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 09:49 pm |
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I ask you, Why exactly are you hiring an attorney? What court filing are you hoping to have a hearing on?
I agree with the poster who said it may be best to approach it with a letter to the heads of the various LEAs in the county. That would be any locol, county, S.Os, and KSP posts that are in the area.
Siimply tell the heads of the agencies, in a very professional, upbeat way, that you and some other like-minded, honest KY citizens are going to have a gathering in a local park. State in the letter that it will be a meeting to celebrate KY's constitutional protection of open, legal carry in the Commonwealth. INVITE THE HEADS OF THE L.E.A.S to come to the meeting. Invite them to share in a meal with you and your group. Be adamant that no alcohol will be served or tolerated at the event. Tell them you will "pass the hat around", and all money collected will go to either the loval women's shelter, or local orphanage if there is one in the county. Make it clear that there will be NO POLITICAL RHETORIC at the event, keep it as a celebration of the KY constitution, which they are sworn to uphold and defend.
Make sure you have approached the city council and obtained any local permits, and make sure you have properly reserved the park space. KEEP ALL PERTINENT DOCUMENTS WITH YOU ON THE DAY OF THE EVENT.
The day of the event, drop into the various police departments (unarmed), and drop off paper invitations/reminders of the event. This puts the ball in the various agencies' court. Either they can attend and make friends with a "special interest group" (in their eyes), or they can snub the event. If they choose to snub it, they will have to put out some sort of inter-departmental communication telling all officers that the where/when of the event, in case calls are received from the citizenry about the event.
To me, you would want to make friends with the LEOs in the area, not set out to punish them. Additionally, like I said before, I don't know what sort of court filing you would even do with an attorney.
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jbradford1
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 10:17 pm |
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While we were talking about wanting to use the park and him checking on the legal stuff..as a side comment, he made the recommendation as a parent, husband and a safety concerned individual that we might want to not chamber a round. It was stated as personal advice not a professional directive. He was a pretty good guy and will probably come to any gathering we would have in this county. All in all not a bad first meeting.
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N00blet45
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 12:13 am |
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Well my firearm is designed to remain safe and function with a round in the chamber, so that's how I'll carry it. As long as he isn't making his personal policy into official policy I have nothing against the guy.
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deepdiver
Activist Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Missouri USA |
| Posts: | 3343 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 03:32 pm |
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He wants us to publicly remove our weapon from the holster and unchamber it at the park before attending the get together?
Ok, obviously that is not what he meant, but that is what it amounts to as experienced carriers will almost always carry condition 1 or 2 as appropriate. It would have been tempting (although ill advised) to ask him if he carries unchambered when out in public with his family. My sidearms are perfectly safe condition 1 or 2 (as appropriate) in their holsters.
Last edited on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 03:33 pm by deepdiver
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jbradford1
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 03:57 pm |
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Roger that.
Round in the chamber? No round in the chamber? Don't matter? Its up to you!
I am going to carry a revolver for the time being and when I do carry my XD 9mm OC, it will be locked and loaded secure in a retention holster so no crack head moron can try to snatch and run or someone try to sneak a peek, as I read another member had happen to him. You have to be ready for anything around some of your friends and family. Amen?
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RIAShooter
Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 01:45 am |
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superdemon wrote: I ask you, Why exactly are you hiring an attorney? What court filing are you hoping to have a hearing on?
I agree with the poster who said it may be best to approach it with a letter to the heads of the various LEAs in the county. That would be any locol, county, S.Os, and KSP posts that are in the area.
Siimply tell the heads of the agencies, in a very professional, upbeat way, that you and some other like-minded, honest KY citizens are going to have a gathering in a local park. State in the letter that it will be a meeting to celebrate KY's constitutional protection of open, legal carry in the Commonwealth. INVITE THE HEADS OF THE L.E.A.S to come to the meeting. Invite them to share in a meal with you and your group. Be adamant that no alcohol will be served or tolerated at the event. Tell them you will "pass the hat around", and all money collected will go to either the loval women's shelter, or local orphanage if there is one in the county. Make it clear that there will be NO POLITICAL RHETORIC at the event, keep it as a celebration of the KY constitution, which they are sworn to uphold and defend.
Make sure you have approached the city council and obtained any local permits, and make sure you have properly reserved the park space. KEEP ALL PERTINENT DOCUMENTS WITH YOU ON THE DAY OF THE EVENT.
The day of the event, drop into the various police departments (unarmed), and drop off paper invitations/reminders of the event. This puts the ball in the various agencies' court. Either they can attend and make friends with a "special interest group" (in their eyes), or they can snub the event. If they choose to snub it, they will have to put out some sort of inter-departmental communication telling all officers that the where/when of the event, in case calls are received from the citizenry about the event.
To me, you would want to make friends with the LEOs in the area, not set out to punish them. Additionally, like I said before, I don't know what sort of court filing you would even do with an attorney.
I think the OP was referring to having a lawyer on retainer in case of any run ins and bull crap charges that might come along from the encounter with an uneducated LEO.
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superdemon
Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 09:55 am |
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RIAShooter wrote: superdemon wrote: I ask you, Why exactly are you hiring an attorney? What court filing are you hoping to have a hearing on?
I agree with the poster who said it may be best to approach it with a letter to the heads of the various LEAs in the county. That would be any locol, county, S.Os, and KSP posts that are in the area.
Siimply tell the heads of the agencies, in a very professional, upbeat way, that you and some other like-minded, honest KY citizens are going to have a gathering in a local park. State in the letter that it will be a meeting to celebrate KY's constitutional protection of open, legal carry in the Commonwealth. INVITE THE HEADS OF THE L.E.A.S to come to the meeting. Invite them to share in a meal with you and your group. Be adamant that no alcohol will be served or tolerated at the event. Tell them you will "pass the hat around", and all money collected will go to either the loval women's shelter, or local orphanage if there is one in the county. Make it clear that there will be NO POLITICAL RHETORIC at the event, keep it as a celebration of the KY constitution, which they are sworn to uphold and defend.
Make sure you have approached the city council and obtained any local permits, and make sure you have properly reserved the park space. KEEP ALL PERTINENT DOCUMENTS WITH YOU ON THE DAY OF THE EVENT.
The day of the event, drop into the various police departments (unarmed), and drop off paper invitations/reminders of the event. This puts the ball in the various agencies' court. Either they can attend and make friends with a "special interest group" (in their eyes), or they can snub the event. If they choose to snub it, they will have to put out some sort of inter-departmental communication telling all officers that the where/when of the event, in case calls are received from the citizenry about the event.
To me, you would want to make friends with the LEOs in the area, not set out to punish them. Additionally, like I said before, I don't know what sort of court filing you would even do with an attorney.
I think the OP was referring to having a lawyer on retainer in case of any run ins and bull crap charges that might come along from the encounter with an uneducated LEO.
Any cout-appointed attorney could get simple, incorrect charges dismissed.
No attorney is going to go on single retainer for a that many indiviuduals. If your that worried about charges and litigation, for a legally incorporated group, and have the attorney on retainer to defend the group and its members.
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Statesman
Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 04:03 pm |
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superdemon wrote: RIAShooter wrote: superdemon wrote: I ask you, Why exactly are you hiring an attorney? What court filing are you hoping to have a hearing on?
I agree with the poster who said it may be best to approach it with a letter to the heads of the various LEAs in the county. That would be any locol, county, S.Os, and KSP posts that are in the area.
Siimply tell the heads of the agencies, in a very professional, upbeat way, that you and some other like-minded, honest KY citizens are going to have a gathering in a local park. State in the letter that it will be a meeting to celebrate KY's constitutional protection of open, legal carry in the Commonwealth. INVITE THE HEADS OF THE L.E.A.S to come to the meeting. Invite them to share in a meal with you and your group. Be adamant that no alcohol will be served or tolerated at the event. Tell them you will "pass the hat around", and all money collected will go to either the loval women's shelter, or local orphanage if there is one in the county. Make it clear that there will be NO POLITICAL RHETORIC at the event, keep it as a celebration of the KY constitution, which they are sworn to uphold and defend.
Make sure you have approached the city council and obtained any local permits, and make sure you have properly reserved the park space. KEEP ALL PERTINENT DOCUMENTS WITH YOU ON THE DAY OF THE EVENT.
The day of the event, drop into the various police departments (unarmed), and drop off paper invitations/reminders of the event. This puts the ball in the various agencies' court. Either they can attend and make friends with a "special interest group" (in their eyes), or they can snub the event. If they choose to snub it, they will have to put out some sort of inter-departmental communication telling all officers that the where/when of the event, in case calls are received from the citizenry about the event.
To me, you would want to make friends with the LEOs in the area, not set out to punish them. Additionally, like I said before, I don't know what sort of court filing you would even do with an attorney.
I think the OP was referring to having a lawyer on retainer in case of any run ins and bull crap charges that might come along from the encounter with an uneducated LEO.
Any cout-appointed attorney could get simple, incorrect charges dismissed.
No attorney is going to go on single retainer for a that many indiviuduals. If your that worried about charges and litigation, for a legally incorporated group, and have the attorney on retainer to defend the group and its members.
Superdemon,
RIAShooter was correct in my intentions here. I can understand it could be construed to be hostile, but reserving the services of an attorney may be warranted in our situation. As I posted previously, I agree with the approaches you and others have suggested.
My only difference in opinion is that, as a group, and even if only for the purely supportive effect of having an attorney to contact, we should take the responsibility to do so. After all, if the need arises, the "hindsight is 20/20" phenomenon will come into play, suggesting that we should have thought about having an attorney prior to engaging in any activity that may pose any amount of risk. OC, IMHO, qualifies as one of those activities.
My efforts, and the efforts of others involved, will not be, and shall not be an "in your face" measure to LEO.
To me, you would want to make friends with the LEOs in the area, not set out to punish them.
I am not advocating setting out to punish LEOs in the area, although I realize it could be construed this way. I am only advocating that:
"certain LEOs that are determined to harass citizens who OC" be stopped.
I would much rather make friends than enemies, always. But that doesn't negate the need to defend yourself with an attorney.
Additionally, like I said before, I don't know what sort of court filing you would even do with an attorney.
Honestly, I am not competent in any court procedures. I don't know what sort of court filing I would do. I'm certain, however, it would depend on the charges being brought against someone who OCs in KY, if any.
During my CCDW class recently, the instructor told the class exactly what would happen if we did choose to OC in Lexington. He said someone would eventually call the police (911 ?), indicating someone with a gun was walking down the street. A police cruser would pull up beside you, asking what you were doing. In short, a person could be cited with "disturbing the peace". I have to give the instructor the benefit of the doubt in this case, and take any precautionary measures.
I believe we have discussed and come to a consensus on the best way to prevent such citations from occurring, through educational efforts. However, if those efforts should fall short, and it does happen to one individual here, it could have a negative psychological effect on the rest of the group, deterring their willingness to exercise their rights to OC.
To preempt any of this, I am also considering the option of contacting state lawmakers, to ask them write in an exception to the laws surrounding "disturbing the peace", to exclude someone who is OCing, unless there is probable cause that a crime is being committed, in order to preserve the (right?) to OC.
A petition may be warranted here, started by this group. Just a suggestion.
- Statesman
Last edited on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 04:05 pm by Statesman
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superdemon
Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 04:54 pm |
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Statesman wrote: superdemon wrote: RIAShooter wrote: superdemon wrote: I ask you, Why exactly are you hiring an attorney? What court filing are you hoping to have a hearing on?
I agree with the poster who said it may be best to approach it with a letter to the heads of the various LEAs in the county. That would be any locol, county, S.Os, and KSP posts that are in the area.
Siimply tell the heads of the agencies, in a very professional, upbeat way, that you and some other like-minded, honest KY citizens are going to have a gathering in a local park. State in the letter that it will be a meeting to celebrate KY's constitutional protection of open, legal carry in the Commonwealth. INVITE THE HEADS OF THE L.E.A.S to come to the meeting. Invite them to share in a meal with you and your group. Be adamant that no alcohol will be served or tolerated at the event. Tell them you will "pass the hat around", and all money collected will go to either the loval women's shelter, or local orphanage if there is one in the county. Make it clear that there will be NO POLITICAL RHETORIC at the event, keep it as a celebration of the KY constitution, which they are sworn to uphold and defend.
Make sure you have approached the city council and obtained any local permits, and make sure you have properly reserved the park space. KEEP ALL PERTINENT DOCUMENTS WITH YOU ON THE DAY OF THE EVENT.
The day of the event, drop into the various police departments (unarmed), and drop off paper invitations/reminders of the event. This puts the ball in the various agencies' court. Either they can attend and make friends with a "special interest group" (in their eyes), or they can snub the event. If they choose to snub it, they will have to put out some sort of inter-departmental communication telling all officers that the where/when of the event, in case calls are received from the citizenry about the event.
To me, you would want to make friends with the LEOs in the area, not set out to punish them. Additionally, like I said before, I don't know what sort of court filing you would even do with an attorney.
I think the OP was referring to having a lawyer on retainer in case of any run ins and bull crap charges that might come along from the encounter with an uneducated LEO.
Any cout-appointed attorney could get simple, incorrect charges dismissed.
No attorney is going to go on single retainer for a that many indiviuduals. If your that worried about charges and litigation, for a legally incorporated group, and have the attorney on retainer to defend the group and its members.
Superdemon,
RIAShooter was correct in my intentions here. I can understand it could be construed to be hostile, but reserving the services of an attorney may be warranted in our situation. As I posted previously, I agree with the approaches you and others have suggested.
My only difference in opinion is that, as a group, and even if only for the purely supportive effect of having an attorney to contact, we should take the responsibility to do so. After all, if the need arises, the "hindsight is 20/20" phenomenon will come into play, suggesting that we should have thought about having an attorney prior to engaging in any activity that may pose any amount of risk. OC, IMHO, qualifies as one of those activities.
My efforts, and the efforts of others involved, will not be, and shall not be an "in your face" measure to LEO.
To me, you would want to make friends with the LEOs in the area, not set out to punish them.
I am not advocating setting out to punish LEOs in the area, although I realize it could be construed this way. I am only advocating that:
"certain LEOs that are determined to harass citizens who OC" be stopped.
I would much rather make friends than enemies, always. But that doesn't negate the need to defend yourself with an attorney.
Additionally, like I said before, I don't know what sort of court filing you would even do with an attorney.
Honestly, I am not competent in any court procedures. I don't know what sort of court filing I would do. I'm certain, however, it would depend on the charges being brought against someone who OCs in KY, if any.
During my CCDW class recently, the instructor told the class exactly what would happen if we did choose to OC in Lexington. He said someone would eventually call the police (911 ?), indicating someone with a gun was walking down the street. A police cruser would pull up beside you, asking what you were doing. In short, a person could be cited with "disturbing the peace". I have to give the instructor the benefit of the doubt in this case, and take any precautionary measures.
I believe we have discussed and come to a consensus on the best way to prevent such citations from occurring, through educational efforts. However, if those efforts should fall short, and it does happen to one individual here, it could have a negative psychological effect on the rest of the group, deterring their willingness to exercise their rights to OC.
To preempt any of this, I am also considering the option of contacting state lawmakers, to ask them write in an exception to the laws surrounding "disturbing the peace", to exclude someone who is OCing, unless there is probable cause that a crime is being committed, in order to preserve the (right?) to OC.
A petition may be warranted here, started by this group. Just a suggestion.
- Statesman
I beleive your CCW instructor was simply trying to drum up some business for himself.
There is no such KRS as "disturbing the peace". The closest thing to that in KY is "Disorderly Conduct", and if you are doing nothing more than OCing, AND I MEAN NOTHING MORE THAN OCING, then you cannot be arrest for Disorderly Conduct.
What some people don't realize is that after the initial contact, you can be dumb enough to escalate a situation so that your subsequent behavior, not the initial behavior, gets you arrested for Disorder Conduct.
I see this all the time in the media. I just read a story where supposedly, a woman was arrested for failing to return library books. The article was actually titled something along the lines of "Woman arrested for overdue library books" When you read the article, however, the woman received repeated legal notice to return the books, which she failed to do. After failing to return the books or to make restitution, she was cited to court. She failed to go to court on her court date, so the judge issued a bench warrant for her arrest. The warrant was for failing to show up for court, not over the library books. She was arrested, booked, then released with a new court date. However, because most people can't see the nuances in this case, people jumped on the initial issue, and reported that she was arrested for overdue library books. In fact, she was arrested for contempt of court (or at least that is what the charge would be in KY). Realilze that a bench warrant is a court order, and that a police officer must act on the order, there is no "discretion" involved. However, it is reported in a way that makes it seem like law enforcement went on their own and arrested this woman over library books, when in fact, they were ordered by a judge to do so.
It was not her initial behavoir that got her arrested, it was her subsequent behavior.
This kind of thing really gets to me sometimes.
Secondly, you keep saying you want to retain a attorney, and you keep using words like "our" and "we".
Any charges would be against the individual, not any kind of organization. In this case, there is not a "strength in numbers" strategy to be had. An attorney is not going to go on retainer for a group the way he will go on retainer for an individual.
Additionally, if you hire an attorney on retainer, it will seem like you were "expecting trouble", and that you may have known that what you were doing may have lead to legal trouble. Then, it goes from exercising a constitutional right, to making some sort of politcal statement.
As an LEO, I fully, fully endorse and support everyone's right to legal OC, however, when you slip into the mentality of expecting trouble, you will find it.
Edit:
When you title a thread like this:
The Kentucky OC group should organize behind an attorney to put an end to OC harassment by LEO, until such a time LEOs are properly reprimanded and systematically educated on the 2nd Ammendment, and the KY Constitution.
Then, yes, it looks like you are out to punish LEOs as a group, instead of dealing on an administrative level with the specific officers who act improperly. If there is one thing that LEO resent, it is when we are painted with a broad brush because of the actions of a few, just like any one else would.
Strategery, it can work for you.
Last edited on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 05:17 pm by superdemon
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