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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 06:45 am |
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gutshot wrote: Mike wrote: wow, lots of new info - so to summarize, I think, the County has no ordiance banning concealed carry at the airport, and the airport board has promulgated a preempted and unenforceable gun ban, right?
If so, the Airport authority needs to be made to remove their illegal gun ban signs.
My deepest condolences to BisinessCards and his family.
Good news and bad news here. I found a Kenton County ordinance prohibiting concealed carry in all county buildings. It's in the attached .pdf. The Airport Board appears on the county's web site as a county agency so....
If the airport is public property (Kenton County) it appears they can, and have, properly prohibited concealed carry from the buildings. The text of the signage in the ordinance is exactly the same as that in the OP. It would then follow that they could not prohibit open carry under any circumstances. That would give them nothing but the DC charge. I think we all believe that won't fly. We seem to have come full circle here.
well it looks like open carry is required then after all.
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Walkeraviator
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 10:56 am |
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| Wait a damn minute. I thought local governments can only ban concealed carry in buildings where a government body was actually present.
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BB62
State Researcher
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 01:52 pm |
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Walkeraviator wrote: ...I thought local governments can only ban concealed carry in buildings where a government body was actually present.
Unfortunately not.
KRS 237.115 says:
"..Except as provided in KRS 527.020, the legislative body of a state, city, county, or urban-county government may, by statute, administrative regulation, or ordinance, prohibit or limit the carrying of concealed deadly weapons by licensees in that portion of a building owned, leased, or controlled by that unit of government..." which does not limit their ability to prohibit to where a governmental body is present.
As far as I'm concerned, this is a BIG oversight on KC3's part - nowhere on the listing of prohibited places does it say that local govts can prohibit concealed carry - and that of course they are glad to do so.
http://www.kc3.com/faq.htm#4
Last edited on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 01:53 pm by BB62
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BB62
State Researcher
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 01:53 pm |
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gutshot wrote: Good news and bad news here. I found a Kenton County ordinance prohibiting concealed carry in all county buildings. It's in the attached .pdf. The Airport Board appears on the county's web site as a county agency so....
Damn.
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BusinessCards
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Aug 14th, 2008 |
| Location: | Cincinnati |
| Posts: | 20 |
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Offline
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 02:11 pm |
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So who's organizing the OC walk around the baggage claim carousels at CVG?
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BB62
State Researcher
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 03:07 pm |
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BusinessCards wrote: So who's organizing the OC walk around the baggage claim carousels at CVG?
When KY demonstrates that they have an RKBA organization that's interested in ALL gun rights, I'll organize the activity.
Unfortunately, that may be awhile.
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langzaiguy
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 03:17 pm |
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| When I am banned from carrying my firearm concealed, I REALLY don't mind open carrying. In fact, it makes it all the more sweeter.
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 04:20 pm |
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langzaiguy wrote: When I am banned from carrying my firearm concealed, I REALLY don't mind open carrying. In fact, it makes it all the more sweeter.
yeah, the correct term of art is to say "open carry is required."
There are a lot of pro-concealed carry states where state law requires open carry. E.g., alcohol serving restaurans in virginia and montanna; banks in North carolina; hospitals in Michigan (but only of you also hold the license to conceal); college campuses and public buildings in Ohio; and apparently the same in Kentucky where the locality has banned concealed carry.
It is what it is so just obey the law.
Last edited on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 04:21 pm by Mike
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gutshot
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 04:44 pm |
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As far as I'm concerned, this is a BIG oversight on KC3's part - nowhere on the listing of prohibited places does it say that local govts can prohibit concealed carry - and that of course they are glad to do so.
http://www.kc3.com/faq.htm#4
You're misreading here. That is simply a list, copied directly from the law, of places that were exempted from the concealed carry law by statute. If you carry in these places you can be arrested and charged with concealed carry of a firearm even though you hold a valid CCDW. Local governments are very different. They are just like private business that can, but are not required to, place a sign and ask patrons not to carry on their property. It's even more difficult for local government because they have to pass an ordinance. You can only be refused entry or asked to leave. No criminality is connected to this. If you refuse to leave you could be charged with trespass. These are two vastly different situations so, two different lists. Also, if you scroll to the bottom of that list you'll see this was a reprint of the KY State Police web site. Many local governments, including the city and county where I live, have chosen not to do so. Many local officials do not want to cast that vote publicly even if they agree with the concept.
Last edited on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 10:28 pm by gutshot
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BusinessCards
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Aug 14th, 2008 |
| Location: | Cincinnati |
| Posts: | 20 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 08:11 pm |
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How has this topic come full circle? We already knew that concealed carry was illegal. I thought the original problem was some airport cop saying he would bust anybody for open carrying which is legal.
That's still the case here isn't it? We have airport cops who claim publicly that they will arrest and charge people with disorderly conduct simply for open carrying in the unsecured areas of the airport.
This sucks.
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gutshot
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 09:02 pm |
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BusinessCards wrote: How has this topic come full circle? We already knew that concealed carry was illegal. I thought the original problem was some airport cop saying he would bust anybody for open carrying which is legal.
That's still the case here isn't it? We have airport cops who claim publicly that they will arrest and charge people with disorderly conduct simply for open carrying in the unsecured areas of the airport.
This sucks.
And that is exactly why it's come full circle. A circle starts some place and goes around and back to the place it started. We didn't know that concealed carry was illegal in the airport. We knew that one airport policeman and signs on the door said it was illegal. I know it is sad, but police often lie and are even more often mistaken about the law. If they are wrong it's "no harm, no foul". If we are wrong it's handcuffs and Miranda warnings. We need to check on everything to see what we can do to facilitate the carrying of firearms and not violate any law. Now we can see that concealed carry is probably illegal, but no one has come up with any reason to think that open carry is prohibited. I suspect that it's legal, maybe others are not convinced. When we're sure and we have all the evidence compiled, someone will attempt to convince the airport authorities that we are right. If reason and good sense fail, someone may be certain enough of his position to test it in court. This is the reason we discuss this stuff. One person may know something another doesn't. We all have different experiences and different points of view. No one wants to risk his money or his freedom until he's sure. I don't want to go "half cocked", so to speak.
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BusinessCards
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Aug 14th, 2008 |
| Location: | Cincinnati |
| Posts: | 20 |
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 11:46 pm |
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Alles klar, Chef!
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Old dog in the fight
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 16th, 2009 06:19 am |
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KC3's board is going to be discussing the situation at the Cincinnati airport when we meet at the the end of the month.
The situation now is simple. The airport's controlling authority, whoever that is, has the right to ban CONCEALED carry on the premises. This is regardless of whether it's a private business or a county board. If it's a governmental entity then the LEGISLATIVE body of that unit of government has to pass such a ban. This is provided for in the law.
They can NOT ban open carry. State law provides for that.
KC3 will be in support of any effort to make sure that the controlling authority at CVG understands exactly how they are governed and restricted by the law. I've already discussed this with out attorney and we'll talk about it more at the situation progresses.
One thing that seems to be lost on some members of this forum who seem to expect miracles from us is that KC3 is composed of volunteers who work on this and other issues in the spare time that we can devote to it - in addition to the time that we have to spend at our jobs and with our families, working and eating and sleeping and doing maintenance, just like most other people. We do NOT have a full time paid staff who exist only to jump on things like this, so expecting that we're going to be able to make a change in a matter of a few days is completely unrealistic, and all the people who want to get all over this and do something about it RIGHT NOW would do well to remember that.
In addition, IIRC the issue is OPEN carry, which is what THIS group is supposed to be working on. As I've said before, KC3 does and will support the free exercise of all our rights, but I simply don't see how anyone here expects that WE are supposed to be taking the lead on this situation.
We're working on it, but it's not the only problem that our organization is addressing and we only have so many hours in the day.
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Old dog in the fight
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 16th, 2009 06:33 am |
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I'm disturbed at the somewhat snotty tone that at least one member of this forum has taken toward KC3 in this situation.
I yield to no man in my support of ALL our rights and I have worked for many years to challenge and rebuff any effort to curtail or restrict those rights at ANY level and in any manner.
I very much resent that one of the members of this forum continues to characterize KC3, the group that I helped to found, as lacking in support of the RKBA because of an email that he received from ONE person in KC3, especially when I have made it abundantly clear that this is NOT our official position and that the board of KC3 as a whole emphatically supports ALL expressions of our right to bear arms, openly or concealed.
It does not further the effort to address the CVG situation to continue to malign KC3, which is the foremost group in Kentucky in preserving and advancing our personal rights. Kentucky had already passed CCDW and maintained a strong tradition of open carry while Ohio was still getting started passing a concealed carry law, and just beginning to demonstrate in support of their constitutional right to carry openly.
So before anyone gets on their high horse and starts slandering KC3 they need to examine the historical record, get their facts straight, actually KNOW what our laws say and ask themselves what good it does to get snooty with the group best positioned to give assistance in this effort, the group that actually HAS shown that it can get things done? - Charles Riggs, co-founder and member of the board, Kentucky Coalition to Carry Concealed.
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BB62
State Researcher
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Posted: Sun Aug 16th, 2009 02:47 pm |
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There has been a distinct lack of communication/miscommunication with the matters Old Dog in the Fight makes reference to.
He and I will talk later today in an attempt to clear the air.
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gutshot
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 16th, 2009 03:04 pm |
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Old dog in the fight wrote: I'm disturbed at the somewhat snotty tone that at least one member of this forum has taken toward KC3 in this situation.
I yield to no man in my support of ALL our rights and I have worked for many years to challenge and rebuff any effort to curtail or restrict those rights at ANY level and in any manner.
I very much resent that one of the members of this forum continues to characterize KC3, the group that I helped to found, as lacking in support of the RKBA because of an email that he received from ONE person in KC3, especially when I have made it abundantly clear that this is NOT our official position and that the board of KC3 as a whole emphatically supports ALL expressions of our right to bear arms, openly or concealed.
It does not further the effort to address the CVG situation to continue to malign KC3, which is the foremost group in Kentucky in preserving and advancing our personal rights. Kentucky had already passed CCDW and maintained a strong tradition of open carry while Ohio was still getting started passing a concealed carry law, and just beginning to demonstrate in support of their constitutional right to carry openly.
So before anyone gets on their high horse and starts slandering KC3 they need to examine the historical record, get their facts straight, actually KNOW what our laws say and ask themselves what good it does to get snooty with the group best positioned to give assistance in this effort, the group that actually HAS shown that it can get things done? - Charles Riggs, co-founder and member of the board, Kentucky Coalition to Carry Concealed.
Some believe that KY has the best concealed carry law in the country. That didn't happen by accident and KC3 was in the forefront of the effort to write and pass that law. No other group has ever come close to doing what KC3 has done for gun rights in KY. Is the organization perfect? No. Have they had periods when they got off track? Yes. It's easy to complain that they haven't done enough, but they are still out there working. Maybe somebody was mean to somebody else along the way. Tough luck. Let's get back to work. KC3 has.
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BB62
State Researcher
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Posted: Sun Aug 16th, 2009 11:28 pm |
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I have just gotten off the phone with Mr. Riggs.
He cleared up some misconceptions I had about the operation of KC3, and I did the same with regard to OCDO.
It is not productive to engage in further public disagreement about motives, attitude, etc. My statements stand as written, as Mr. Riggs assured me his do.
As I understand it, KC3 will act, or not, on a timetable of their choosing.
I am hopeful that KC3 takes the lead in an effort to eliminate the signage at the airport, or if such signage is determined to be legal, that KC3 work vigorously to insist that threatened or actual prosecution of disorderly conduct/inducing panic is not an acceptable police response to legal gun carry - anywhere in KY.
Obviously, we here can and will do what we can in support of such activities.
In concluding our conversation, I offered my assistance with further activities or investigations related to the airport matter.
Last edited on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 11:34 pm by BB62
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PreachermanMatt
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sat Aug 15th, 2009 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 9 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Mon Aug 17th, 2009 01:06 am |
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BB62 wrote: Walkeraviator wrote: ...I thought local governments can only ban concealed carry in buildings where a government body was actually present.
Unfortunately not.
KRS 237.115 says:
"..Except as provided in KRS 527.020, the legislative body of a state, city, county, or urban-county government may, by statute, administrative regulation, or ordinance, prohibit or limit the carrying of concealed deadly weapons by licensees in that portion of a building owned, leased, or controlled by that unit of government..." which does not limit their ability to prohibit to where a governmental body is present.
As far as I'm concerned, this is a BIG oversight on KC3's part - nowhere on the listing of prohibited places does it say that local govts can prohibit concealed carry - and that of course they are glad to do so.
http://www.kc3.com/faq.htm#4
So some here actually disarm/don't carry CC at these locations????
Lets finish that KRS shall we...
KRS 237.115
(3) Unless otherwise specifically provided by the Kentucky Revised Statutes or applicable federal law, no criminal penalty shall attach to carrying a concealed firearm or other deadly weapon with a permit at any location at which an unconcealed firearm or other deadly weapon may be constitutionally carried.
thus ALL "no guns" signs at any location other than those Prohibited pertaining to CC as outlined in KRS 237.110 (16) are rules only--not laws.
I complete agree with working toward removing any "no guns" sign from all local gov't agencies and property... .but until this is done I will continue to CC at local and state state property, universities, and anti gun private property---with the full legal protection of KRS 237.115
concealed means concealed...
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Mon Aug 17th, 2009 01:20 am |
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PreachermanMatt wrote: So some here actually disarm/don't carry CC at these locations????
Lets finish that KRS shall we...
KRS 237.115
(3) Unless otherwise specifically provided by the Kentucky Revised Statutes or applicable federal law, no criminal penalty shall attach to carrying a concealed firearm or other deadly weapon with a permit at any location at which an unconcealed firearm or other deadly weapon may be constitutionally carried.
thus ALL "no guns" signs at any location other than those Prohibited pertaining to CC as outlined in KRS 237.110 (16) are rules only--not laws.
I complete agree with working toward removing any "no guns" sign from all local gov't agencies and property... .but until this is done I will continue to CC at local and state state property, universities, and anti gun private property---with the full legal protection of KRS 237.115
concealed means concealed...
Aha! That explains the County ordinance, authorizing the signs, mere says concealed carriers can be asked to leave - or presumably in the alternative, to transition to open carry
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BB62
State Researcher
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Posted: Mon Aug 17th, 2009 04:14 am |
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PreachermanMatt wrote: BB62 wrote: KRS 237.115 says...
So some here actually disarm/don't carry CC at these locations????
Lets finish that KRS shall we...
KRS 237.115...
Yep, some actually disarm, because they follow the law.
And, the language you cited, that of there being no criminal penalty for CCing in such places, has been in this thread since page 2. Some have not noticed it.
To me, the issue has been multi-faceted - 1) I felt that sub-state legislative bodies could not prohibit concealed carry because they were not/are not on KC3's list (which I'd always thought of as "the Bible") of prohibited places, 2) I felt it important to determine whether or not the non-sterile part of the airport (and the airport itself) was owned, controlled, etc. by "that unit of government" (quoting KRS 237.115) in such a way that the accompanying legislative body could cordon it off to concealed carry, and 3) if such signage was found to be legal, would KC3 (only because I know of no other KY RKBA group) go after the airport police for suggesting that DC or IP charges might be levied against an OCer?
Even at this point, all three issues are unsettled.
Some may use the non-criminal nature of the CCing "offense" in government buildings to ignore the issue, or act as a rationale for inaction or acceptance. I personally do not subscribe to those viewpoints.
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