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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 08:48 pm |
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CaptainDan wrote: Again gentlemen, as I have stated many times before the average criminal is a COWARD and chooses his victims carefully, waiting for the old lady in the parking lot,kids at the register at happy burger, etc. Thease people are out for an easy score with as little resistance as possible , sure they might shoot everybody inside if pushed being the cowards they are. But that is why they don't hold up night clubs (too much security ) or any place where they can't "hit and run" If the threat of harm to themselves is present, however slight, they will choose another target, store, whatever. In my opinion thease violent criminals , while cowards through and through, are axtremely dangerous as they attack unseen, they wait, plan and attack when they think they can get away ,
Yeah, like this:
[img]img%20src=%22http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/MikesPhotos37/Speedtrap3.jpg[/img]
OC deters violence, just like a cop car in plain view is the most effective deterrent to speeding. Makes you wonder why they don't employ the most effective deterrent?
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marshaul
Activist Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 09:03 pm |
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Speeding tickets aren't a deterrent.
They are revenue, and I don't want to debate this self-evident point with the apologists right now. What's the best way to collect revenue? To sit out in the open, or to hide and let people fly past before they realize you're even there?
What is the point of your fail argument? Are you trying to advocate the advantage of CC?
Edit: Upon reading that again, it occurs to me that I may actually agree with your post, but if that is the case it is egregiously off-topic.
If your sole point is that speeding traps aren't a deterrent, then you've showed that pretty well. But it's off topic.Last edited on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 09:16 pm by marshaul
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nolacopusmc
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 11:53 pm |
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smoking357 wrote: nolacopusmc wrote:
You are oversimplifying it a little. I could give you a thousand scenatrios where i could draw my gun and react without the criminal ever knowing I had a weapon.
Do any not involve a bottle of Jergen's?
Your an ass, but we knew thaT ALREADY.
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nolacopusmc
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 11:59 pm |
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CaptainDan wrote:
Now on the dedicated threat, where the attacker knows EXACTLY who he's gonna get it makes absolutly no difference if you are carrying a gun in your pants or in your hand as far as whether he's gonna attack you or not. The advantage there is OC the gun is readilky available CC you gotta fish it out.
In that scenario, i agree that the tactical advantage lies with the OC'er in his PROBABLE quicker draw than the CC'er, skill level depending of course.
In my opinion if you keep your head out of your a@@, you(OC) will allways have the advantage over violent crime. Bury your face in a Big Mac unaware of everything around you and yes you stand a chance of gett'n snuck !
A lot is said for situational awareness, and to a certain degree you are right, but feigning submission to gain tactical advantage or opportunity to counterattack is a valid and proven tactic in a variety of situation. You loose the ability to have that as an option when the Bg has identified you as a threat due to a known weapon.
Besides on the odd chance I don't see 3 or 4 thugs running at me from the side while in the Quarter (the bum rush tactic) , I don't want to have to dig for my piece after 2 or three blows to the back of the head.
So what part does weapon retention play in the proudly displayed fullsize handgun?
One more thing to consider Guys, try to conceal a full size sidearm, if I have to return fire to save the life of my wife or children it aint gonna be with a compact .380 becouse it fits neatly inside my trousers and hides so nicely. I want a full size combat hand gun!!!
Wrong answer. many people can appropriately hide a full frame pistol. I have several students and peers who carry two 9mm combat guns IWB with what I consired to be fitted shirts, plus a reload and you would never know.
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nolacopusmc
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:05 am |
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JT wrote: nolacopusmc wrote: You are oversimplifying...
That is precisely the point. Each situation is different and we could all identify pros and cons to a method of carry in a given situation against a given opponent. The possible scenarios are endless. Those that argue open carry is a "tactical disadvantage" constantly cite an over-simplified scenario in which a criminal targets the open carrier. In defense of concealed carry you said;
I could give you a thousand scenatrios where i could draw my gun and react without the criminal ever knowing I had a weapon.
I don't dispute that. I could give you lots of scenarios too. Each scenario has different variables. My point is that there is no sure fire "tactics" argument that makes one method of carry superior to the other. Each method has its pros and cons. The biggest pro for each is a law abiding citizen having a firearm with which to defend himself. Each person's success will vary in a given situation but the ability to freely excercise the right is the point.
You asked "political opinions aside" but unfortunately the arguement for "tactical advantage" often takes place in the context of whether or not open carry should be allowed. You alluded to that sentiment when you said;
Otherwise, that is a very eloquent regurgitation of the typical OC pipe dream that some "average guy" with a gun will deter the average criminal.
I tried my best not to discuss the "politics" as you requested but you since you have injected that back into the discussion let me ask you this. Why the apparent contempt for the "average guy with a gun?" Is notthe idea of arming citizens to make the "average guy" more than just average? You honestly believe that an apparently armed "average guy" is no greater deterrent to any criminal than an apparently unarmed "average guy?" How does the criminal know the skill level of the armed "average guy"? I suspect that by "average guy" you really mean non-state sanctioned or non-LEO.
The bottom line is this. In is a good thing when law abiding citizens are armed. The arguement about tactics is useless to the cause of civil rights for gun owners. In the current climate, the law abiding armed citizen, whether he carries openly or concealed, has more reason to fear a confrontation with LEO's than with criminals. That isn't the way it should be.
Not really sure how I mentioned politics. By average guy, i meant that the bad guys look at people into two categories 1. i can take that guy 2. i cannot take that guy. i know this from interviewing hundreds of thieves, rapists, and a hand full of outright murders, not to mention the hundreds of additional case studies I have read through my schooling.
That said, i apologize if I misrepresented what I meant with the term average guy. I know most here hate LEO, but the bad guys are simply not deterred unless they think they will be beat. most have such an exposure rate to violence and guns, that a non-LEO with a gun is not threat to them. they have homies in their hood who are simjply men with guns.
The fact that a LEO potentially can put them back in prison, may serve as a slight DETERRENT to some, but they would just as soon shoot a LEO.
Question: If weapons are such a deterrent, why are so many cops shot? I mean other than because they deserve it for being Facist governement pigs? 
Seriously?
Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:28 am by nolacopusmc
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CaptainDan
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:15 am |
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Nola, don't understand the question about the "proudly displayed full size hand gun" but would be happy to elaborate for you if you clarify the question, if indeed a question it was and not a blanket statement.
Why are so many cops shot? One possible awnser is they are constantly involved in violent situations, domestic violence, robbery, etc. Any one who earns their living by the gun , so to speak, is gonna get shot at , especially in Da Chocolate City. When you show up (da po-po) the shi@ has all ready hit the fan and you are walking right into it.
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CaptainDan
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:22 am |
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Also I'm going to assume you were trying to make a valid point/question all though I never said "proudly" you added that to what I said , hereby changing my meaning, becouse I have never taken a jab at you or any one ealse. So please clarify your question/point for me please.
Oh , and I challenge you to hide a 5 1/2 in. barrel 17 shot .40 WHERE IT CAN STLL BE EASILY AND QUICKLY RETRIEVED and still not be seen COMFORTABLY.
Allthough I am a little bigger than the average man (6'tall , 232 lbs , size 34 waist)
I am not heavy and my wife says I have no butt, my waist and stomach are flat ,typical old jock build, my shoulders all though not huge, are the widest part of my body, so tell me with a build like mine where does such a large weapon ride unseen ? With out runn'in it up the old mud whistle, where can I put it and still get to it without a struggle?
Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:35 am by CaptainDan
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:22 am |
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marshaul wrote: If your sole point is that speeding traps aren't a deterrent, then you've showed that pretty well. But it's off topic.
I don't connect every dot. To do would insult my reader. My point is simply that open deters better than concealed, whatever the activity.
Oh, and I agreed on the methods cowards employ to capture their prey.
Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:32 am by smoking357
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marshaul
Activist Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:30 am |
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smoking357 wrote:
marshaul wrote: If your sole point is that speeding traps aren't a deterrent, then you've showed that pretty well. But it's off topic.
I don't connect every dot. To do would insult my reader. My point is simply that open deters better than concealed, whatever the activity.
Fair enough.
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nolacopusmc
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:32 am |
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CaptainDan wrote: Also I'm going to assume you were trying to make a valid point/question all though I never said "proudly" you added that to what I said , hereby changing my meaning, becouse I have never taken a jab at you or any one ealse. So please clarify your question/point for me please.
Oh , and I challenge you to hide a 5 1/2 in. barrel 17 shot .40 WHERE IT CAN STLL BE EASILY AND QUICKLY RETRIEVED and still not be seen COMFORTABLY.
No one said comfortable. Carrying a weapon is not comfortable...it is comforting.
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nolacopusmc
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:33 am |
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CaptainDan wrote: Also I'm going to assume you were trying to make a valid point/question all though I never said "proudly" you added that to what I said , hereby changing my meaning, becouse I have never taken a jab at you or any one ealse. So please clarify your question/point for me please.
Oh , and I challenge you to hide a 5 1/2 in. barrel 17 shot .40 WHERE IT CAN STLL BE EASILY AND QUICKLY RETRIEVED and still not be seen COMFORTABLY.
Don't read too much into it. he use of proudly was sarcastic, which is my personality. In these forums, I typically type how I would conversate.
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marshaul
Activist Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:34 am |
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nolacopusmc wrote:
Question: If weapons are such a deterrent, why are so many cops shot? I mean other than because they deserve it for being Facist governement pigs?
Seriously?
I have no idea, and the human race may never know, but I can assure you it has nothing whatsoever to do with it being their job to arrest people who desperately want to say out of jail.
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nolacopusmc
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:38 am |
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marshaul wrote: nolacopusmc wrote:
Question: If weapons are such a deterrent, why are so many cops shot? I mean other than because they deserve it for being Facist governement pigs?
Seriously?
I have no idea, and the human race may never know, but I can assure you it has nothing whatsoever to do with it being their job to arrest people who desperately want to say out of jail.
I do not understand your point.
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nolacopusmc
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:41 am |
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CaptainDan wrote: Nola, don't understand the question about the "proudly displayed full size hand gun" but would be happy to elaborate for you if you clarify the question, if indeed a question it was and not a blanket statement.
Why are so many cops shot? One possible awnser is they are constantly involved in violent situations, domestic violence, robbery, etc. Any one who earns their living by the gun , so to speak, is gonna get shot at , especially in Da Chocolate City. When you show up (da po-po) the shi@ has all ready hit the fan and you are walking right into it.
Very valid statement, but if the cops show up with a displayed gun, your earlier arguments suggest that the known presence of it, should be a deterrent. I would say that the police have the advantage over the average guy from the perspective of the criminal, because they know for a fact that the police are willing and able( arguably to varying degrees  ) to use it.
Do you not see a disadvantage with weapon retention in an OC scenario. i mean to say if the goes for your gun, now you have to deal with that. CC will not likely encounter that unless the weapon is already drawn, which in most situations will be a shoot scenario.
I would assume that many on here, do not have any form of training in weapon retention and from what I have seen in pictures, gear selection is not remotely adequate to begin to accomodate the potential training shortfalls.
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CaptainDan
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:44 am |
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nolacopusmc wrote: CaptainDan wrote: Also I'm going to assume you were trying to make a valid point/question all though I never said "proudly" you added that to what I said , hereby changing my meaning, becouse I have never taken a jab at you or any one ealse. So please clarify your question/point for me please.
Oh , and I challenge you to hide a 5 1/2 in. barrel 17 shot .40 WHERE IT CAN STLL BE EASILY AND QUICKLY RETRIEVED and still not be seen COMFORTABLY.
No one said comfortable. Carrying a weapon is not comfortable...it is comforting.
Nola, now I see where you are coming from. Comforting not comfortable. When you see me you will notice that my side arm , as big as it is, rides very comfortably on my right hip, just behind center. So comfortable in fact, I often bang the butt on doorways, car doors, etc. I literally forget it's there, I even catch myself from time to time lowering my elbow to make sure it's still there (I know it is I just can't feel it) Possibly due, OK probably due, to my choice in leather. My holster is at its point in life where its the softest leather and has conformed to the shape and bend of my hip. If your gun hurts to carry, look into other holster possibilities, The hard plastic one that came with my gun was a pain and pinched when I sat or drove.
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nolacopusmc
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:46 am |
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CaptainDan wrote: nolacopusmc wrote: CaptainDan wrote: Also I'm going to assume you were trying to make a valid point/question all though I never said "proudly" you added that to what I said , hereby changing my meaning, becouse I have never taken a jab at you or any one ealse. So please clarify your question/point for me please.
Oh , and I challenge you to hide a 5 1/2 in. barrel 17 shot .40 WHERE IT CAN STLL BE EASILY AND QUICKLY RETRIEVED and still not be seen COMFORTABLY.
No one said comfortable. Carrying a weapon is not comfortable...it is comforting.
Nola, now I see where you are coming from. Comforting not comfortable. When you see me you will notice that my side arm , as big as it is, rides very comfortably on my right hip, just behind center. So comfortable in fact, I often bang the butt on doorways, car doors, etc. I literally forget it's there, I even catch myself from time to time lowering my elbow to make sure it's still there (I know it is I just can't feel it) Possibly due, OK probably due, to my choice in leather. My holster is at its point in life where its the softest leather and has conformed to the shape and bend of my hip. If your gun hurts to carry, look into other holster possibilities, The hard plastic one that came with my gun was a pain and pinched when I sat or drove.
I feel you. there are defintely more comforting options out there,. but for those who OC, I think along with situational awareness, weapon retention should be a priority.
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CaptainDan
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:50 am |
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I can only speak for myself, however , one would think the USMC provided the best training in the free world when it came to use of small arms, wouldn't you agree? 
After all Uncle Sam spends Millions teaching young men to become masters of their craft.
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:51 am |
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marshaul wrote: nolacopusmc wrote:
Question: If weapons are such a deterrent, why are so many cops shot? I mean other than because they deserve it for being Facist governement pigs?
Seriously?
I have no idea, and the human race may never know, but I can assure you it has nothing whatsoever to do with it being their job to arrest people who desperately want to say out of jail.
Actually, "so many" aren't killed. In 2005, only 50 were shot. http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/134343-Fifty-officers-shot-to-death-in-2005/
Bear in mind there are about a million people working for police departments. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_74.html
Being a police officer is safer than these occupations:
Occupations more dangerous than being a police officer: Number of deaths per 100,000 employed Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics, Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries - 2001 Timber cutting: 122.1 Fishermen: 112.1 Airplane pilots: 100.8 Miners: 29.8 Farmers: 28.0 Construction laborers: 27.7 Truck drivers: 25.0 Groundskeepers: 15.0 Laborers (non-construction): 14.2 Ranchers: 13.0 Bus drivers: 12.9 Police and detectives: 11.6 National average: 4.0
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nolacopusmc
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:52 am |
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CaptainDan wrote: I can only speak for myself, however , one would think the USMC provided the best training in the free world when it came to use of small arms, wouldn't you agree?
After all Uncle Sam spends Millions teaching young men to become masters of their craft.
Great training, but not in the same context. Definitely beneficial, but shal we say the ROE is a little different.
Offense vs. Defense.
Every Marine is a Rifleman. 
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nolacopusmc
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:53 am |
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smoking357 wrote: marshaul wrote: nolacopusmc wrote:
Question: If weapons are such a deterrent, why are so many cops shot? I mean other than because they deserve it for being Facist governement pigs?
Seriously?
I have no idea, and the human race may never know, but I can assure you it has nothing whatsoever to do with it being their job to arrest people who desperately want to say out of jail.
Actually, "so many" aren't killed. In 2005, only 50 were shot. http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/134343-Fifty-officers-shot-to-death-in-2005/
Bear in mind there are about a million people working for police departments. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_74.html
Being a police officer is safer than these occupations:
Occupations more dangerous than being a police officer: Number of deaths per 100,000 employed Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics, Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries - 2001 Timber cutting: 122.1 Fishermen: 112.1 Airplane pilots: 100.8 Miners: 29.8 Farmers: 28.0 Construction laborers: 27.7 Truck drivers: 25.0 Groundskeepers: 15.0 Laborers (non-construction): 14.2 Ranchers: 13.0 Bus drivers: 12.9 Police and detectives: 11.6 National average: 4.0
Damn, for someone who is otherwise a bubbling cesspool of worthless virtual ignorance, that is a remotely useful post for a change.  Now how about a little more recent data.
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