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Venator
Member
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 12:33 am |
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WARCHILD wrote:
Cheif: "Wait a minute I want to check that gun and see if it's registered!" The cheif stepped toward my truck and I asked him if he wanted the green card. He said: (in his usual very aggressive tone) "No, I want that gun!" I had opened the truck door to leave and it was still open, so I stepped back and let him take the gun. He went back to his car and got on the radio.
You're gonna love what happens next: unfortuneately you'll have to wait till tomorrow!
Part 3: Finale': I ask the trooper why the cheif was being so aggressive and rude towards me. I have been more than helpful, polite and made no complaints. The trooper said that the cheif feels very strong about his opinon on open carry. I said I respect that but it gives him no right to be rude and treat me in such a way. I have been respectfu, even though he has tried to intimidate me, and for him to act the way he has is not only very un-professional it's un-called for. I told the trooper, you haven't acted that way, you have been polite and very professional. You told me your opinion and I respected that you have that right, but the cheif is way out of line. The cheif yells at the trooper, "That gun's not even his." The trooper walks over to the cheif's car and they talk. The trooper asks, "Who's Carl, you brother?" I told him yes, we have traded the pistol back and forth a few times. The trooper walks back over to my truck and asks if the pistol is registered, and I said yes, I gave you the green card for it. So as I was getting the card out again the cheif tells the trooper: "I'm calling the prosecutor, he can't carry that." Now this is just my opinion, but I think the cheif was having an orgasmic moment, thinking he had me by the short hairs and I was going to jail! The trooper started looking at the green card again and I showed him the date of the transfer, Mar '06. I told him my brother was dying from cancer and we transfered all his guns into my name while he was still able to do so. And that he could see it was done right in the Owosso city police station. The trooper walked over to the other trooper in his car and showed him the card and he got on the radio. When trooper #2 got off the radio, he gave the card back to trooper #1. The cheif told the trooper the prosecutor wanted to talk to him on the cellphone. As the trooper was talking to the prosecutor I could hear him say that it was a misread by the dispatcher, the gun was legally registered to me in Mar '06. The cheif shot me such a look of frustration, I thought he might pop, so I just gave him and wide grin and just stood there. I can't say for sure, but in my opinion, I think the trooper must have put the cheif in check while they were talking, because the cheif never said another word or got within ten feet of me the rest of the time. The trooper walked back over to my truck and told the dispatcher's mistake, she didn't scroll down to the last transfer and it was ok, the gun was legally registered to me. He then handed my gun back towards me and once again I told him to just put it in the seat. The trooper said I was free to go and was sorry for taking up so much of my time. I told him I didn't mind a bit if it will help educate the people and law enforcement that what I was doing is legal. I would gladly spend a couple of hours, I'm retired and time isn't a real factor. Again the trooper apologized for taking up so much of my time and have a good day. I said, thank you, you too. I then looked at the cheif, with an intenional s**t eating grin, and said have a good day! Too bad I already had breakfast, I could have fried an egg on his head! I go into my truck, loaded my TOY back up and slowly left the lot, making sure I went WEST, to Owosso, didn't feel like the cheif pulling a traffic stop on me for loud exhaust once I was on a public street.
Now for me, it was time well spent. Gave me a chance to find out that the cheif of corunna has a strong opinion, and isn't very professional in doing his job. As I have related, I treated the trooper with equal respect as he did me and even to the cheif though he was agressive and tried to intimidate me more than once. Am I glad I pissed him off so bad, YES, the way he was acting he deserved it. Had I acted in kind, I would definately went to jail for any reason he could think of. I may not have even been charged, but the cheif would have loved the inconvience it would have caused me and the couple of hours or more it would have taken me to get out of jail. These are the chances you accept when you decide to OC. If you run into an officer like the cheif with the typical "I am God with a badge" attitude, you are in for a bad experience. So let your own confidence and common sense be your guide and make your decision carefuly, you may regret it later with the wrong LEO.
There you guys happy? Now you don't have to listen to the show for "The rest of the story" I love Paul Harvey, best radio commentator EVER!
With a CPL you can carry a gun registered to someone else, come on Jerry you know this. In your case your brother was dead and you would need to register it in your name which you did. If he was still alive you would have been okay as well. I wonder if the Chief knows about this recent change in the law? I guess I can send him my standard 5 page information packet.
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Venator
Member
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 12:35 am |
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Michigander wrote: I'd be up for going OCing with you guys there if I wasn't about to move. In my opinion a picnic in Corunna might be a good idea. 
By the way, if it were me, I would complain to the state police about being disarmed. They had no legal right to disarm you, because they had no probable cause to believe that you commited a crime. I'd call that unlawful search and seizure. Given that the MSP actually sent out a news letter detailing the legality of open carry, I would have hoped and expected that they would have diffused the situation.
I believe with a CPL the police can disarm you for their safety during an encounter with them.
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WARCHILD
Member
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 12:41 am |
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| Venator: you bet I knew this, thanks to you and the others, that's why I wasn't worried at all. I was enjoying the fact that I knew I was legal and the chief thought he had me dead to rights and take me to jail. The frustration he experienced after words--- PRICELESS!
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Michigander
Member
| Joined: | Sat Aug 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Phoenix |
| Posts: | 523 |
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 12:46 am |
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Venator wrote: I believe with a CPL the police can disarm you for their safety during an encounter with them.
Sort of, but not in that case. That's covered under a Terry stop. A Terry stop involves reasonable, articulateable suspicion of criminal activity. I doubt very much that any of the officers there could have listed a crime they suspected Jerry of commiting, since there was none. It was unlawful detainment and unlawful seizure. But on the plus side, cops were educated, and no one was hurt. No harm no foul. The chief is just lucky that Jerry is so nice.
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ghostrider
Member
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 01:34 am |
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Michigander wrote: Venator wrote: I believe with a CPL the police can disarm you for their safety during an encounter with them.
Sort of, but not in that case. That's covered under a Terry stop. A Terry stop involves reasonable, articulateable suspicion of criminal activity. I doubt very much that any of the officers there could have listed a crime they suspected Jerry of commiting, since there was none. It was unlawful detainment and unlawful seizure. But on the plus side, cops were educated, and no one was hurt. No harm no foul. The chief is just lucky that Jerry is so nice.
I may be wrong, but I believe they are given more lattitude when someone calls them, as was supposedly the case here.
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WARCHILD
Member
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 08:05 pm |
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Michigander wrote: Venator wrote: I believe with a CPL the police can disarm you for their safety during an encounter with them.
Sort of, but not in that case. That's covered under a Terry stop. A Terry stop involves reasonable, articulateable suspicion of criminal activity. I doubt very much that any of the officers there could have listed a crime they suspected Jerry of commiting, since there was none. It was unlawful detainment and unlawful seizure. But on the plus side, cops were educated, and no one was hurt. No harm no foul. The chief is just lucky that Jerry is so nice.
NICE! There you go trying to ruin my reputation as a low life pr**k! Thanks for the support though. Update: I talked to Home Depot about the incident, my friend there apologized for the incident. I told him there was nothing to apologize for. It wasn't them, it was a panicked customer. I told him since they were kind enough to give me permission to carry in their store, in the future I would cover up my gun. He said I didn't have to. I told him I would anyway, they were kind enough to let me carry in the store, I wouldn't repay that kindness with disrupting their store with a panicked shopper. He appreciated the gesture and thanked me and said no employee would ever call in regards to this without asking me to cover it up or leave and he doubts that would ever happen. A little courtesy goes a long way to build lasting friendships!
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KBCraig
Member
| Joined: | Tue Aug 7th, 2007 |
| Location: | Northeast Texas |
| Posts: | 250 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 04:06 am |
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WARCHILD wrote: Ok, one little tidbit, when the chief checked out the magazine-- he made a point to show the trooper and didn't like what he saw and shot me a look of true dislike! I was max loaded-- 17mag- 1 in the pipe-- 135gr jhp of teflon coated Black Talons! He said they're illegal, I said no, the manufacture of teflon coated bullets was banned, not the possesion of ammunition purchased pre-ban. I have 2,000 rounds, would you like some.
Thanks for the great story!
I've already seen a reply that pointed out that Black Talons weren't banned in any way. Winchester just stopped selling them because of the publicity.
What they make now is the Winchester SXT. And while they don't admit it publicly, everyone in the industry knows with a wink and a nudge that "SXT" stands for "Same eXact Thing".
Black Talons were never Teflon coated. The black coating was Lubralox, which is an oxide finish.
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SpringerXDacp
Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 02:00 pm |
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WARCHILD wrote: Venator: you bet I knew this, thanks to you and the others, that's why I wasn't worried at all. I was enjoying the fact that I knew I was legal and the chief thought he had me dead to rights and take me to jail. The frustration he experienced after words--- PRICELESS!
Jerry, I would be willing to bet that if your situation only envolved the troopers, it would have been a non-event. Also, and not bashing, IMO, the Chief was just putting on a show for the troopers.
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WARCHILD
Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 09:19 pm |
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SpringerXDacp wrote: WARCHILD wrote: Venator: you bet I knew this, thanks to you and the others, that's why I wasn't worried at all. I was enjoying the fact that I knew I was legal and the chief thought he had me dead to rights and take me to jail. The frustration he experienced after words--- PRICELESS!
Jerry, I would be willing to bet that if your situation only envolved the troopers, it would have been a non-event. Also, and not bashing, IMO, the Chief was just putting on a show for the troopers.
No, I really don't think it was a show for the troopers. He didn't like it and wanted to make sure I knew it.
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Venator
Member
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 01:58 pm |
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| I mailed the Chief my info packet for LEO's. I'm not holding my breath for any response from him. They do seem to have a nice park, and good place for an open carry picnic get together. Last edited on Thu May 1st, 2008 02:41 pm by Venator
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BB62
State Researcher
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 02:37 pm |
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WarChild,
You are THE MAN.
Nice job being informed and keeping your cool!
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WARCHILD
Member
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 10:45 pm |
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Thanks, and this gives me the perfect lead into--- I was at Home Depot today at 1pm, I was standing at the contractors check out desk and you'll never guess who I saw pull up in the parking lot-- the chief and the Shi-county sherrif k-9 unit! Now I immediately start thinking someone called 911 again, even though I had my jacket over the gun, the end of the barrel still shows. So I'm getting ready for the same scene to play out again. As soon as the chief came in the door we made eye contact. He was definately surprised to see me there! (told him I was there a lot) The chief and the sherrif walk directly over to me at the counter. The chief looked directly at my side to see if I was carrying a gun. (of course I lifted my jacket a little more as he had walked toward me). He spotted my gun, but to my surprise said "Hi, how are you doing?" I said, real good today, how about you? Ok, he said. He was actually polite and had a slight smile on his face! The deputy then ask the clerk where the manager was, they recieved a silent alarm notice. The deputy and chief walked to the back of the store. To say the least I was in a mild shock! They came back a few minutes later and talked a bit to the clerk. The chief was difinately keeping an eye on me, but said nothing. They both finally left out the door and I watched as the deputy left and the chief stayed in his car setting in the lot. We got our stuff and went outside. We loaded the truck and pulled out of the lot. Oddly enough the chief decided to leave at that time. I figured a traffic stop was about to happen, but it didn't! We went right and he went left towards cournna.
Summation: I decided to re-think the experience with the chief. His demeanor was un-called for most definately. But, just maybe that was his way to try and antagonize me and see if he was dealing with a hot head carrying a gun and maybe scare me enough not to carry anymore. That doesn't make how he acted ok, but I think I can understand now what he may have been doing. I don't think his feelings about open carry have changed but at least this time he was polite and more friendly. Maybe too that he realized I stood my ground and still have the determination to carry no matter what the experience. Who knows, maybe future encounters may lead to some mutual understanding and exchange of worthwhile information.
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mastiff69
Member
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 11:20 pm |
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To many eyes, and ears in the store and monitoring cameras ?
Maybe thats why he waited to leave after you left and follow you for a little bit to make you wonder ( alittle loving reminder )
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WARCHILD
Member
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 11:26 pm |
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| You're right, I took that into considertion also, i.e., watching me, waiting for me to leave. But like I said, we'll have to wait and see how future encounters go.
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Ford Truck
Member
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 04:38 am |
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mastiff69 wrote: To many eyes, and ears in the store and monitoring cameras ? You are just so cynical. You remind me of myself.
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WARCHILD
Member
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 07:18 pm |
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Speaking of eyes and ears--- NEWS FLASH--- I found out this a.m. who called 911 at Home Depot---- one employee I talk to quite often, who also has a cpl, approached me and told me he knows the guy that called 911. I said oh really, who was it. He said the guy is a deputy sherrif of lapeer county, lives in lapeer and I know him.
So there we have it. Based on what this guy says, it was either an un-informed LEO from lapeer, or just one that likes to cause possible grief to a law abiding citizen just for carrying a gun and he doesn't like it! Of which I would consider him kinda chicken s**t, if he were that concerned, why not challenge me and identify himself as LEO and then call 911.
Opinions---
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UpNorth
Member
| Joined: | Tue Feb 5th, 2008 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 36 |
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 07:29 pm |
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| Sure hope he doesn't try to get you for failing to inform him you were CCW and etc....
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ghostrider
Member
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 08:35 pm |
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Since he wasn't even part of any investigation, and his contact with the Chief was only in passing(on his recent encounter), there's about as much chance of that being considered "failure to inform", then there is for him getting in trouble for OC.
I personally think the Chief's actions were typical. His goal was to intimidate you into not OC’ing, and he accomplished that. People of his sort are not the type you “go along to get along” with, because they usually see that as a sign of weakness, and only continue the pressure (this may, or may not have been the reason he waited until you left before he made his exit). It’s the same with the Deputy who called in. Their goal was to get you to comply with their wishes, and they accomplished that. In their minds, they probably believe they accomplished that through intimidation and or enforcing their will onto you, and it was only reinforced by your CC next time they encountered you. I know you don’t look at it that way, but that’s probably the way they see it. To them, they pressured you to not OC, and it worked. Problem with this type of mindset is that, when they discover that they didn’t actually intimidate you into complying with their will, it will only further frustrate them. This is usually followed by and increases in pressure from them. On a future encounter, he may well give you a line along the line of, "If it shows, then it's in violation of not being concealed". I'd like to give the Chief the benifit of the doubt, but based on your recolection of the initial encounter, it's more a matter of judging his character based on his actions.
You’re obviously the type of person who believes in working with people to accomplish a common goal. I’m guessing that they are the type who believes in making others follow their agenda (common among LEO since they are trained to maintain control of situations, and that’s one of the more common ways), and usually accomplish that through intimidation.
Just my $.02.
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WARCHILD
Member
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 09:17 pm |
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| Ghostrider: I agree with you completely. That's exactly the meaning I was trying to get across, save one, they may think they intimidated me into not oc-ing, and that's ok. But I chose to cc as a solution at Home Depot as a favor to them, not as a requirement by them or the attempted intimidation by the chief. Home Depot employee even told me I didn't have to conceal in his store, but I choose to as a courtesy to them. I was going to inform the chief of that, but wasn't looking to start anything in the store or while I was with my family. As you and I have said, any future encounters will tell.
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NervisRek
Member
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 11:03 pm |
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| My only question is this...... am I the only one that wonders what would have happened if the chief had gotten there first or even had he been the only response to the call? He probably would have thrown you so far in jail that they would have had to feed you with a slingshot, not to mention the legal fees it would have cost you to clear everything. I'm glad the ending turned out the way it did, but it sure could have been costly. I've personally talked to the AG about the open carry law that's still on the books, and he doesn't have a problem with the law, but he also says that it's not something that the law enforcement community would like the general population to be aware of. The question of "open carry" actually stopped a training class at the Oakland Police Academy" when I had my son ask about the consequences of OC. It seems as if every instructor, (even the Chief of Southfield Pd) who was an instructor of a class, had a different idea on how to handle the situation of a call for OC. The majority of the answers were such as "I'd slam their butts in jail so fast, yadda, yadda., I'd arrest their butts for public disturbance, etc. The bottom line it's an uphill struggle.
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