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Venator
Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 08:20 pm |
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The word is getting around. As I was OCing at a MacDonald's on vacation in Beulah, I noticed two guys looking at my Gun and whispering about open carry. So I had to but in and asked where they heard that OC was legal in Michigan? They said on some website and couldn't remember which one. I asked if they read the article in the Flint paper, they had not. The one guy said he carries, but hasn't OCed. I told him to check out this site and log on as a member. I don't know if he has. He may be a bit reluctant to OC as both guys were 30 something black males. Good to see the message getting out to all people that want to protect themselves, would love to have more people of color OCing.
Also my brother was at a get together and heard some guys talking about open carry. The guy said he would love to get a permit to open carry. My brother steps up and tells him he doesn't need a permit, that if you can lawfully posses the gun you can carry openly. My brother also said to check out the website and that his brother (me) was very involved in this movement. Good to know my brother listens to me once in a while.
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WARCHILD
Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 08:26 pm |
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Venator: My MENTOR  . Check out my OC experience I had at Harbor Freight! I just had to LMAO, as I was leaving.
BTW; Welcome back, hope you had a great vacation!
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Venator
Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 09:14 pm |
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Last edited on Thu Sep 4th, 2008 12:21 am by Venator
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LaVere
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Flint, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 62 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 08:56 pm |
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Hello my name is Gordon,
I'm a CCWer and its has been 4 hours since my last open carry. I have been wanting to break this bad habit of not open carrying for many years.  . I not sure if I'm strong enough but I'm willing to try again.  Each time I revert to CCw I regret the relapse. I promise I CAN do better with all of your help and the meetings.
End poor attempt at humor.
OC today Home Depot, local restaurant, and a Krogers I felt very uncomfrotable at the check out line at Krogers A man came and stood about 3 foot in back of me no cart between me and him. Either I need to get over the uncomfortable feeling or get a better holster with retention. I'll see what the tomorrow brings.
Gordon
Flint
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SQLtables
Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 09:14 pm |
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LaVere wrote: Hello my name is Gordon,
I'm a CCWer and its has been 4 hours since my last open carry. I have been wanting to break this bad habit of not open carrying for many years. . I not sure if I'm strong enough but I'm willing to try again. Each time I revert to CCw I regret the relapse. I promise I CAN do better with all of your help and the meetings.
End poor attempt at humor.
OC today Home Depot, local restaurant, and a Krogers I felt very uncomfrotable at the check out line at Krogers A man came and stood about 3 foot in back of me no cart between me and him. Either I need to get over the uncomfortable feeling or get a better holster with retention. I'll see what the tomorrow brings.
Gordon
Flint
Get over the uncomfortable feeling only slightly, you still need to be aware of that sort of situation. DEFINITELY get some sort of retention holster. Some may disagree, but I will not OC without one anymore.
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Venator
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 01:22 pm |
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This is the letter I sent to the owners of the cafe I was asked to leave up in Benzie County.
Dear Phoenix Café:
I was in your café in late June, 2008 and was approached by the owner and was asked about my legally carried handgun. The owner stated that a customer was uneasy with me being there. The owner went on to say that he has to think about his customers. Well, until then, I thought of myself as a customer as I had been in his café on several occasions while lawfully carrying my handgun with no problems. The owner asked me to place the gun in my car, which would have put it in danger of being stolen, so I offered to cover my weapon, which I did. The owner then left but came back in a couple of minutes and said he talked it over with his partner and they decided they didn’t want guns in the café as it may be bad for business.
I have these thoughts for you to ponder. While I was at your café, I was watching the customers that came into the store and I did not notice a signal instance where a potential customer saw my gun and turned and walk out of your café, thereby losing you business. I can state emphatically! that you did lose my business. Up until asked to leave, I had spent about $30.00 in 4 days. Our family has a summer home on Crystal Lake and I spend time there during the summer and fall. I stay at the Lake 3 weeks or more each year, which works out to about $150 lost by my boycott alone. I have been a customer of the café since it opened several years ago. This lose of income is just from myself, it do not take into account the potential revenue lose by my friends and family that feel as I do, nor does it take into account any revenue lose since your business was posted on some pro-gun websites as being gun unfriendly. It’s funny that I often carry openly in the Biggby’s coffee chain in the Lansing area and they don’t have a problem with it. You would think a Northern Michigan business would be a bit more gun friendly then the City of Lansing and it’s environs.
I would think in times of economic difficulties you would embrace all potential customers, including those that believe in the right of self defense as well as those that do not. I hope that upon reflection you will reconsider your banning of the open carry of a handgun and allow those that wish to open carry to do so in your business. As news of the Supreme Court’s ruling that the right to bear arms is indeed an individual right spreads, more and more people in Michigan will choose to open carry a handgun in their day-to-day lives.
Brian Jeffs, MS. CPG.
Bath, MI
Last edited on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 01:22 pm by Venator
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 03:13 pm |
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Venator wrote: This is the letter I sent to the owners of the cafe I was asked to leave up in Benzie County.
Dear Phoenix Café:
I was in your café in late June, 2008 and was approached by the owner and was asked about my legally carried handgun. The owner stated that a customer was uneasy with me being there. The owner went on to say that he has to think about his customers. Well, until then, I thought of myself as a customer as I had been in his café on several occasions while lawfully carrying my handgun with no problems. The owner asked me to place the gun in my car, which would have put it in danger of being stolen, so I offered to cover my weapon, which I did. The owner then left but came back in a couple of minutes and said he talked it over with his partner and they decided they didn’t want guns in the café as it may be bad for business.
I have these thoughts for you to ponder. While I was at your café, I was watching the customers that came into the store and I did not notice a signal instance where a potential customer saw my gun and turned and walk out of your café, thereby losing you business. I can state emphatically! that you did lose my business. Up until asked to leave, I had spent about $30.00 in 4 days. Our family has a summer home on Crystal Lake and I spend time there during the summer and fall. I stay at the Lake 3 weeks or more each year, which works out to about $150 lost by my boycott alone. I have been a customer of the café since it opened several years ago. This lose of income is just from myself, it do not take into account the potential revenue lose by my friends and family that feel as I do, nor does it take into account any revenue lose since your business was posted on some pro-gun websites as being gun unfriendly. It’s funny that I often carry openly in the Biggby’s coffee chain in the Lansing area and they don’t have a problem with it. You would think a Northern Michigan business would be a bit more gun friendly then the City of Lansing and it’s environs.
I would think in times of economic difficulties you would embrace all potential customers, including those that believe in the right of self defense as well as those that do not. I hope that upon reflection you will reconsider your banning of the open carry of a handgun and allow those that wish to open carry to do so in your business. As news of the Supreme Court’s ruling that the right to bear arms is indeed an individual right spreads, more and more people in Michigan will choose to open carry a handgun in their day-to-day lives.
Brian Jeffs, MS. CPG.
Bath, MI
I think the letter would have been much more effective had you written to explain that upon being instructed by your staff to remove, unnecessarily handle, and leave your loaded gun in a vehicle in a public place that you took your business elsewhere without paying for the food ordered as the conduct of the staff constitutued poor judgement and a violation of the implied contract created by holding your restaurant out as a public eatery.
I urge everyone to never never comply with any private owner demands to handle your gun or leave in a parked vehicle - if you do this, you have REWARDED their conduct! As they say, money talks, and bul#$%^ walks!
Also, NEVER urge anyone to post signs. Never. Like the movie said - If you suggest it, they will come.
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SQLtables
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 03:22 pm |
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Mike wrote: I think the letter would have been much more effective had you written to explain that upon being instructed by your staff to remove, unnecessarily handle, and leave your loaded gun in a vehicle in a public place that you took your business elsewhere without paying for the food ordered as the conduct of the staff constitutued poor judgement and a violation of the implied contract created by holding your restaurant out as a public eatery.
I urge everyone to never never comply with any private owner demands to handle your gun or leave in a parked vehicle - if you do this, you have REWARDED their conduct! As they say, money talks, and bul#$%^ walks!
Also, NEVER urge anyone to post signs. Never. Like the movie said - If you suggest it, they will come.
I disagree, I think Brian's letter will suit the job just fine. Whether or not it is a public eatery, it is still private property, and they have the right to lose anybody's business they feel necessary. Only Brian can say for sure, but I don't believe he left because the staff (who was actually the owner) acted inappropriately. I believe he left because it became clear that they did not want his money and Brian, like me, does not want to give them his money. I don't see any implied contracts being violated.
Like the movie said - If you suggest it, they will come.
Which movie is that from? 
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Venator
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 03:37 pm |
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Mike wrote: Venator wrote: This is the letter I sent to the owners of the cafe I was asked to leave up in Benzie County.
Dear Phoenix Café:
I was in your café in late June, 2008 and was approached by the owner and was asked about my legally carried handgun. The owner stated that a customer was uneasy with me being there. The owner went on to say that he has to think about his customers. Well, until then, I thought of myself as a customer as I had been in his café on several occasions while lawfully carrying my handgun with no problems. The owner asked me to place the gun in my car, which would have put it in danger of being stolen, so I offered to cover my weapon, which I did. The owner then left but came back in a couple of minutes and said he talked it over with his partner and they decided they didn’t want guns in the café as it may be bad for business.
I have these thoughts for you to ponder. While I was at your café, I was watching the customers that came into the store and I did not notice a signal instance where a potential customer saw my gun and turned and walk out of your café, thereby losing you business. I can state emphatically! that you did lose my business. Up until asked to leave, I had spent about $30.00 in 4 days. Our family has a summer home on Crystal Lake and I spend time there during the summer and fall. I stay at the Lake 3 weeks or more each year, which works out to about $150 lost by my boycott alone. I have been a customer of the café since it opened several years ago. This lose of income is just from myself, it do not take into account the potential revenue lose by my friends and family that feel as I do, nor does it take into account any revenue lose since your business was posted on some pro-gun websites as being gun unfriendly. It’s funny that I often carry openly in the Biggby’s coffee chain in the Lansing area and they don’t have a problem with it. You would think a Northern Michigan business would be a bit more gun friendly then the City of Lansing and it’s environs.
I would think in times of economic difficulties you would embrace all potential customers, including those that believe in the right of self defense as well as those that do not. I hope that upon reflection you will reconsider your banning of the open carry of a handgun and allow those that wish to open carry to do so in your business. As news of the Supreme Court’s ruling that the right to bear arms is indeed an individual right spreads, more and more people in Michigan will choose to open carry a handgun in their day-to-day lives.
Brian Jeffs, MS. CPG.
Bath, MI
I think the letter would have been much more effective had you written to explain that upon being instructed by your staff to remove, unnecessarily handle, and leave your loaded gun in a vehicle in a public place that you took your business elsewhere without paying for the food ordered as the conduct of the staff constitutued poor judgement and a violation of the implied contract created by holding your restaurant out as a public eatery.
I urge everyone to never never comply with any private owner demands to handle your gun or leave in a parked vehicle - if you do this, you have REWARDED their conduct! As they say, money talks, and bul#$%^ walks!
Also, NEVER urge anyone to post signs. Never. Like the movie said - If you suggest it, they will come.
Thanks for the comments. I had already paid for my stuff, as I said I have been there several times while OCing, without a problem. After he told me he didn't want exposed guns in his cafe I explained to him that he lost me as a customer and that I would post his cafe on pro-guns sites, he said he didn't care, he did say would I like it if he allowed dogs in his cafe?, which I said I like dogs. It was going nowhere so I left. I thought I covered all the bases with the letter..economic...boycott....Human rights, etc.
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Venator
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 03:42 pm |
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Last edited on Thu Sep 4th, 2008 12:22 am by Venator
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SQLtables
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 03:43 pm |
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Venator wrote: SQLtables wrote:
Like the movie said - If you suggest it, they will come.
Which movie is that from?
A paraphrase of the line from "Field of Dreams"..... "If you build it, they will come"
I know... sorry.. bad attempt at sarcasm...just ignore me
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defcon1
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 09:49 pm |
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First OC yesterday filling the gas tank at the Marathon station, then 2nd OC today at TSC in Paw Paw.
Gotta say it does feel awkward, much more so than when I first started carrying concealed. I suppose it's because no one actually knows when you're CCing, but it's blatantly obvious when you're OCing.
Obvious that I need a new holster. Any recommendations for a Springfield XD 5" that is stable and doesn't sit up high pushing the gun into the ribs? The one I've got now rides nice and low, but the spring clip lets it slide back and forth on the belt way too much. Looked at drop holsters at Blade Tech, but it appeared that they would also be moving around too much, and don't think I want something strapped to my leg. Appreciate your experienced thoughts on the matter. Thanks!
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SpringerXDacp
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 11:30 pm |
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defcon1 wrote: First OC yesterday filling the gas tank at the Marathon station, then 2nd OC today at TSC in Paw Paw.
Gotta say it does feel awkward, much more so than when I first started carrying concealed. I suppose it's because no one actually knows when you're CCing, but it's blatantly obvious when you're OCing.
Obvious that I need a new holster. Any recommendations for a Springfield XD 5" that is stable and doesn't sit up high pushing the gun into the ribs? The one I've got now rides nice and low, but the spring clip lets it slide back and forth on the belt way too much. Looked at drop holsters at Blade Tech, but it appeared that they would also be moving around too much, and don't think I want something strapped to my leg. Appreciate your experienced thoughts on the matter. Thanks!
I got the Blade-Tech w/SR loop, Level II, for my G21SF and it works quite well. It does slide a bit along the belt at times. I use a 1 3/4" nylon, Bianchi. I like the setting options available on the holster; cant, height & belt width. The only negative issue on the holster is the price-about $110 with s&h.
ETA: Congrats on your first OC.
Last edited on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 11:32 pm by SpringerXDacp
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Kimberguy
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 01:48 am |
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this is my first post on OC i posted this at Miguowners.org... was asked to coppy it here. my shirt is still wet...HAHA
I just got home. About 20 minutes ago, i was standing in the pouring rain in hand cuffs, outside the Jackson Crossing Mall surrounded by four Jackson County Police officers.
It was 6:00pm and i was at the mall clothed in under armor basket ball shorts, Sandals, and a Corporal of Marines t-shirt. I did have my belt and uncle Mikes holster with my Kimber Compact CDP II. I picked my Fieance up from work(who had been robbed while working at the same mall while i was i Iraq a few months ago) we went to Best Buy and then to the dollar store to get some trash bags to drop off where she works. As we left the dollar store i noticed that one of the customer service reps was standing there watching me. As we continued to walk another one stared me down as he walked by me hand on his radio. As we continued to walk another CS rep in a suit yells out at me "HEY GUY!" i don't answer to it, he then yells out "Corporal of Marines!" I stop turn around nod and ask him what he needs. Standing far too close for comfort, he says "I have no doubt that you are legal with that thing, but it is mall policy that we do not allow guns in the mall except for uniformed police officers." "I have not seen it posted anywhere, i was not aware of that." I replied "well that is mall policy. The police have been called and we need you to leave." I informed him "that is fine i will leave but you guy do need to post that at your entrances" he continued "You can stay but then you can explain that all to the police" So I sent my fieance to where she worked and i went out to get the car. well i barely got to the door when the LEO stopped me. drew his weapon got me out of the car and put me in cuffs.
after he took my firearm to his car and my car was searched, i was un-cuffed, and waited in my car. he later came to my window let me know that i would be getting my weapon back but that i was in violation of my CPL. I let him know that this was not the case. and that Open carry was perfectly legal. he said he would have to check with his Sgt.(did i mention that this guy probably won't older than me about 23 or so. I kinda felt sorry for him having to deal with this) in the end thy put my pistol in the trunk and the Sgt and i talked a little, we both agreed that i was not in violation of anything, but he didn't understand why i would carry open, and he didn't care.
My fieance is pissed not because i was put in cuffs, but because the customer service guys who called the police on me, where the same people she called when she was robbed and they never called the police. So this mall will not let you carry a gun to defend your self and they won't call the cops when someone is going from store to store robbing them.
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SpringerXDacp
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 02:25 am |
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Kimberguy wrote: this is my first post on OC i posted this at Miguowners.org... was asked to coppy it here. my shirt is still wet...HAHA
I just got home. About 20 minutes ago, i was standing in the pouring rain in hand cuffs, outside the Jackson Crossing Mall surrounded by four Jackson County Police officers.
It was 6:00pm and i was at the mall clothed in under armor basket ball shorts, Sandals, and a Corporal of Marines t-shirt. I did have my belt and uncle Mikes holster with my Kimber Compact CDP II. I picked my Fieance up from work(who had been robbed while working at the same mall while i was i Iraq a few months ago) we went to Best Buy and then to the dollar store to get some trash bags to drop off where she works. As we left the dollar store i noticed that one of the customer service reps was standing there watching me. As we continued to walk another one stared me down as he walked by me hand on his radio. As we continued to walk another CS rep in a suit yells out at me "HEY GUY!" i don't answer to it, he then yells out "Corporal of Marines!" I stop turn around nod and ask him what he needs. Standing far too close for comfort, he says "I have no doubt that you are legal with that thing, but it is mall policy that we do not allow guns in the mall except for uniformed police officers." "I have not seen it posted anywhere, i was not aware of that." I replied "well that is mall policy. The police have been called and we need you to leave." I informed him "that is fine i will leave but you guy do need to post that at your entrances" he continued "You can stay but then you can explain that all to the police" So I sent my fieance to where she worked and i went out to get the car. well i barely got to the door when the LEO stopped me. drew his weapon got me out of the car and put me in cuffs.
after he took my firearm to his car and my car was searched, i was un-cuffed, and waited in my car. he later came to my window let me know that i would be getting my weapon back but that i was in violation of my CPL. I let him know that this was not the case. and that Open carry was perfectly legal. he said he would have to check with his Sgt.(did i mention that this guy probably won't older than me about 23 or so. I kinda felt sorry for him having to deal with this) in the end thy put my pistol in the trunk and the Sgt and i talked a little, we both agreed that i was not in violation of anything, but he didn't understand why i would carry open, and he didn't care.
My fieance is pissed not because i was put in cuffs, but because the customer service guys who called the police on me, where the same people she called when she was robbed and they never called the police. So this mall will not let you carry a gun to defend your self and they won't call the cops when someone is going from store to store robbing them.
Welcome to OCDO Kimberguy. I read your post over at MGO earlier this evening and glad it turned out the way it did. Did the Sgt. or the reps tell you to never return to the mall or just with not the gun?
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Kimberguy
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 03:21 am |
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no, they just put my pistol in my trunk, and told me that i could take it out when i got home.
When i drop my fieance of at work tomorrow, I do plan on talking with management about the situation, where they stand on carrying, and if hey do in deed apose it, i will be fery polite and courtious, but will be clear that i will shop elsewhere. I just can't understand disarming a law abiding citizen let alone a OIF Veteren. after doing nothing to help his fieance when she was robbed while on the clock working for them in January while i was over seas.
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SpringerXDacp
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 03:51 am |
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Kimberguy wrote: no, they just put my pistol in my trunk, and told me that i could take it out when i got home.
When i drop my fiance of at work tomorrow, I do plan on talking with management about the situation, where they stand on carrying, and if hey do in deed appose it, i will be very polite and courteous, but will be clear that i will shop elsewhere. I just can't understand disarming a law abiding citizen let alone a OIF Veteran. after doing nothing to help his fiance when she was robbed while on the clock working for them in January while i was over seas.
Kimber, copy and paste Venators OC info in a word doc and make copies to keep in your car and a copy on your person when carrying. You may want to take a copy with you when you speak to management. It's not likely they will be interested in seeing it, but, it wont hurt to ask.
Link: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13328.html
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 04:02 am |
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Kimberguy wrote: no, they just put my pistol in my trunk, and told me that i could take it out when i got home.
Huh?
You need to make a formal complaint against the officer for even conducting the non-consensual stop.
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Michigander
Member
| Joined: | Sat Aug 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Phoenix |
| Posts: | 690 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 04:05 am |
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Dang Kimberguy, that's the worst OC encounter yet with police I think. First time an arrest happened that I know of.
I hope you consider a law suit, and I must say I am thouroughly unsurprised by the lack of a professional response. My brother and I were harassed and threatened some years ago in Jackson, we called them up, and were basically told to go screw ourselves. 
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ghostrider
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 04:27 am |
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Mike wrote: Kimberguy wrote: no, they just put my pistol in my trunk, and told me that i could take it out when i got home.
Huh?
You need to make a formal complaint against the officer for even conducting the non-consensual stop.
I agree. This is also why I tell people that they need to not only understand the law before OC'ing, but also thier rights. One cannot stress how important it is to get an LEO (in an incident such as this) to state his reasonable suspicion, or if you are free to leave.
Keep asking:- Under suspicion of what crime are you detaining me? And, what is your reasonable suspicion?
- Am I free to leave?
Also, in such a situation make sure to drive home that:- I don't consent to search, nor do I resist.
If a police officer is detaining you for OC, then you should not (at least at that point) let the conversation drift from those points, and you should stay focused on those points. Once the police contact you, you really have no idea what the future will bring, and these lines are going to be the best protection you can have at that moment short of a lawyer present.
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