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EM87
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 03:50 am |
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It was bound to happen, I just didn't know when or where. To clarify, I wasn't asked to leave right off the bat, just to put my Glock in my car. If I didn't, then I would have been asked to leave.
I was at Gallagher's, my favorite bar/restaurant in Kalamazoo. I frequent the establishment usually once a week, and the manager on duty has seen me many times and knows I'm part of a group who spends money there regularly, although I'd never spoken to her. I was sitting in the outside area with 3 friends, with my soda bread and a glass of water. The manager came out to tell me that I couldn't have a gun in a bar. She didn't look too pleased. I politely corrected her and told her that it is legal for a CPL holder to open carry in a bar. She said something like "Well I know some people that have their concealed licenses and they can't carry in bars." I told her once again that that was incorrect. Her last statement (still not looking at all pleased) was something like, "Well I just want you to let you know that we know you have it. Is that fair?" I said "Yes, that's very fair." I was confused about what she wanted me to make of that statement though. Uh, of course you know I have it. It's on my hip, completely out in the open. I went on conversing with my friends.
A short while later, maybe 10 minutes, she came out again and informed me that she had just gotten off the phone with public safety who had, of course, wrongfully informed her that in fact she was right, that guns weren't allowed in bars. I told her that I had the book of Michigan firearms laws in my car and that I would be happy to go and get it to show her that what I'm doing is legal. I also informed her that many people in law enforcement aren't aware of the laws regarding open carry, and that I was positive that I was in the right. She said that that's not what the lieutenant on the phone had told her. I said once again that I'd show her the law, but she didn't care. Instead she told me that I was making some of her employees nervous, and that I was making her nervous as well, so I could put it in my car or I could leave, and that she didn't want to argue. I let her know that I understood that she could ask me to leave private property, because she said it multiple times and I had said I understood multiple times. I wasn't arguing at all, just trying to get her to understand that I was not doing anything illegal. She of course didn't care. She wasn't interested in understanding the situation, just getting her way. What is it about an inanimate object that makes people so nervous? I had clearly been in the restaurant many times, and she had seen me. She knew I spent money there on many occasions. She knew I wasn't a threat. This is very irritating to me, if that's not obvious. I maintained my cool while talking to her, and told her I'd put it in my car. I left some cash on the table and then I did put my Glock in my car, firmly attached to my hip.
It's unfortunate that this happened because I will no longer be patronizing this establishment.
If I am somehow wrong about OC in a bar (with a CPL), please let me know. If I'm right, please let me know anyway, as reassurance.
I'm supremely irritated right now.
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Michigander
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 04:00 am |
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The best way to handle being kicked out of places that don't like you open carrying is to look forward to it. Hope that you'll finally get booted out of somewhere. I've found it to be extremely rare, since it's only happened to me one time. By looking forward to it, you'll be pleasantly surprised when it finally happens. It nothing more than a milestone of progress to be made while OCing.
You did your best to inform her what the laws were, and you left when asked. You shouldn't be irritated, because it appears you did everything right, and you have identified a business to be avoided. Good job.
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EM87
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 04:11 am |
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Michigander wrote:
The best way to handle being kicked out of places that don't like you open carrying is to look forward to it. Hope that you'll finally get booted out of somewhere. I've found it to be extremely rare, since it's only happened to me one time. By looking forward to it, you'll be pleasantly surprised when it finally happens. It nothing more than a milestone of progress to be made while OCing.
You did your best to inform her what the laws were, and you left when asked. You shouldn't be irritated, because it appears you did everything right, and you have identified a business to be avoided. Good job.
Thanks, I appreciate the support. Besides time, the one thing that makes me feel better about it is knowing that there are people on my side. I'm no longer irritated thanks to having some time to cool off, and also thanks to the positive comments.
Interesting way of looking at getting kicked out... I'll have to try to think that way. 
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autosurgeon
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 04:24 am |
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Well I am still looking forward to my first chance at getting asked to leave....
as for gallagers they are a restaurant and sports bar ... not a bar and I bet they make more on food than booze.
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malignity
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 04:36 am |
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I'd send a letter to them, explaining what happened, specifically cite the laws of how you were in the right, and inform them that they have lost a customer, and that you will tell everyone you know about your negative experience there.
Hit them where it hurts.
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dougwg
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 04:37 am |
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You need to educate the Lieutenant.
Then politely ask her to call him back.
Remember, try to make friends not enemies. Sometimes it's lots of work to make friends.
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dougwg
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 04:37 am |
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malignity wrote: I'd send a letter to them, explaining what happened, specifically cite the laws of how you were in the right, and inform them that they have lost a customer, and that you will tell everyone you know about your negative experience there.
Hit them where it hurts.
I agree with this but only as a last resort.
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EM87
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:01 am |
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dougwg wrote:
You need to educate the Lieutenant.
Problem is that I don't know who she talked to or how to find out. I suppose I could call Gallagher's and ask for that manager, and maybe she would know. Problem is, I don't think she cares about the legality, because she was going to ask me to leave either way because it made her nervous. I doubt that she would be willing to call the lieutenant back even if I did educate him.
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malignity
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:06 am |
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You also need to assume that she did in fact TALK to someone. Many people believe they know the laws, or have friends who think they know them, and in order to make it sound more authoritative, and to save time, they'll say it came from so and so, or what not. 
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autosurgeon
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:07 am |
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The police knew that they hadn't a leg to stand on or they would have been there lights flashin sirens blastin
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autosurgeon
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:09 am |
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malignity wrote: You also need to assume that she did in fact TALK to someone. Many people believe they know the laws, or have friends who think they know them, and in order to make it sound more authoritative, and to save time, they'll say it came from so and so, or what not.
This is also very possible.... I think a letter to the owners might be in order!
FYI they have an establishment in Paw PAW too... anyone game for a test of the water ... say a couple of us meet for dinner there... If they kick us out then we can go up the street to the Copper Grill as I have OCed there with no problems!
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Michigander
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:14 am |
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If you want to make things right at the PD, send a complaint/letter of information to the chief.
It can be inferred from the phone call that at least one officer is unaware of the legalities of open carry at a bar. Because of that, it is reasonable to believe that others in the department are also oblivious to these things.
I would suggest putting a request in the letter that someone at the department contact the restaurant, because the manager obviously doesn't want to listen to you, and it's clearly the fault of the police officer who misinformed the manager. It's their mess, it's only fair to ask them to clean it up.
Last edited on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:15 am by Michigander
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autosurgeon
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:20 am |
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Michigander wrote: If you want to make things right at the PD, send a complaint/letter of information to the chief.
It can be inferred from the phone call that at least one officer is unaware of the legalities of open carry at a bar. Because of that, it is reasonable to believe that others in the department are also oblivious to these things.
I would suggest putting a request in the letter that someone at the department contact the restaurant, because the manager obviously doesn't want to listen to you, and it's clearly the fault of the police officer who misinformed the manager. It's their mess, it's only fair to ask them to clean it up.
This is of course assuming that she really talked to the KDPS. But if she did and they did what we think they did... then it is their mess to clean up
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EM87
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:32 am |
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Well, here we go:
The manager who asked me to secure the gun in the car said she talked to public safety. I didn't know if she was being vague (as in, she called the local PD), or specific. I took a chance and looked up kalamazoo public safety online, and called. It turns out that the operator who picked up was the one the manager talked to. Made my job of tracking it all down easier.
So I said that I wanted to clear up a misunderstanding about the open carry laws and asked if I should talk to her or her supervisor (who she said she had asked.) I ended up talking to her. To be specific, I began citing laws (MCL 28.425o and MCL 750.234d), to which she got annoyed and told me that I didn't have to cite the law to her. I apologized and said that I was only doing that because I don't know how much she knows because I don't know her personally, and that if I seem overbearing or condescending to let me know. She said ok, so I continued on. I finished up quickly, citing the laws and what they mean in relation to OC. She said that when she talked to the manager of Gallagher's that she made it clear to her that it was a private establishment and that she could ask me to leave. It didn't sound like she told her it was illegal, but it's a he said she said now. Who knows. I was waiting for her to say something like "Thank you for clearing that up.", or at least "I get it now." But she was silent. So I said that I just wanted to clear up that misunderstanding and thank you for your time, have a good night.
I don't know if she actually told the manager that it was illegal, or if the lieutenant did, or what. But the woman on the phone was clearly done listening to me so I left it at that. I should have asked to speak with the lieutenant, but I didn't think fast enough.
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malignity
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:40 am |
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Sounds like you might want to write a letter to the establishment then, like I suggested.
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EM87
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:43 am |
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| I might just do that. It would probably be the best course of action.
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malignity
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:45 am |
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This actually brings me to another question.
Can a private facility that is open to the public like this, just randomly decide 'hey, i don't want a gun in my store', and then kick people out? I was under the impression that they had to have a no firearms sign. Granted, I don't typically OC, and when I'm CCing, even my fiance doesn't notice, but I'm trying to remember the specifics on that, and I must have been sleeping during my CPL class because I know they covered it, but I just don't remember what they said. From the sounds of things, they can just 'up and up' you whenever they feel like, but I just wanted to be sure.
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Flyer22
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:48 am |
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dougwg wrote: malignity wrote: I'd send a letter to them, explaining what happened, specifically cite the laws of how you were in the right, and inform them that they have lost a customer, and that you will tell everyone you know about your negative experience there.
Hit them where it hurts.
I agree with this but only as a last resort.
WHY?? They need to know that their ignorant and stupid actions have consequences.
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autosurgeon
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:51 am |
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malignity wrote: This actually brings me to another question.
Can a private facility that is open to the public like this, just randomly decide 'hey, i don't want a gun in my store', and then kick people out? I was under the impression that they had to have a no firearms sign. Granted, I don't typically OC, and when I'm CCing, even my fiance doesn't notice, but I'm trying to remember the specifics on that, and I must have been sleeping during my CPL class because I know they covered it, but I just don't remember what they said. From the sounds of things, they can just 'up and up' you whenever they feel like, but I just wanted to be sure.
Yes they can BC it is private property. Once they ask you to leave and you don't they can have you arrested for trespassing.
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malignity
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 06:15 am |
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That's what I thought, thanks.
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