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T Vance
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 05:04 pm |
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I sent the following to the Chief of Police for the City of Jackson as well as to Lt. Jim Shaw of the Michigan State Police Post #17 in Jackson.
"Good afternoon,
I had a problem being stopped by several Jackson City Police officers after a 911 call was made about me open carrying in public several months ago. I can't go into much detail about it because I am fighting a traffic ticket I recieved that day after being stopped for open carrying a handgun. It has been brought to my attention that someone else was recently stopped for open carrying by another Jackson City Police Officer and I thought this information needed to be sent again to make you aware of the legality of open carry in the State of Michigan. We are not out to cause trouble, make a scene, or have any problems with law enforcement officers. We are just law abiding citizens that wish to protect ourselves and exercize our Constitutional rights. I would appreciate a response to verify that you recieved this email, and have discussed this issue with your fellow officers. I appreciate the hard work all of you do everyday. Below you will find an information pack on the legality of open carry.
I did have contact with Lt. Jim Shaw of the Michigan State Police Department, as well as Captain Kevin Stellingworth of the Jackson Sherrif's Department several months ago pertaining to this topic, and was told that they has discussed this with their fellow officers. I just thought they should be aware of this. I did send a copy of this email to the Jackson City Police Department at the same time I sent them copies back in May but never recieved a response. I hope this makes its way to the Chief of the Jackson City Police Department, and as requested would like a reponse stating that this information was recieved.
Thank you for your time and hard work.
T Vance"
Also, here is a link to those court cases you requested Kimberguy.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/26723.html
1 See, for example, Com. v. Couture, 407 Mass. 178, 552 N.E.2d 538 (1990), cert. denied, 498 U.S. 951, 111 S. Ct. 372, 112 L.Ed.2d 334 (1990).
2 Id.
3 See Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 88 S. Ct. 1868, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (196 4 Com. v. Alvarado, 423 Mass. 277, 667 N.E.2d 856 (199 .
5 Alabama v. White, 496 U.S. 325, 110 S. Ct. 2412, 110 L.Ed.2. 301 (1990).
6 Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266, 120 S. Ct. 1375, 146 L.Ed.2d 254 (2000).
7 Pennsylvania v. D.M., U.S. 120 S. Ct. 203, 146 L.Ed.2d 953 (2000).
8 Id.
9 Alabama v. White, 496 U.S. 325, 1105 S. Ct. 2412, 110 L.Ed.2d 301 (1990); U.S. v. Diallo, 29 F.3d 23 (1st Cir. 1994); U.S. v. Taylor, 162 F.3d 12 (1st Cir. 199 .
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T Vance
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 08:47 pm |
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I recieved this so far.
"Mr. Vance:
I received your e-mail, and I will forward it to both the Chief of Police, who is out of the office until Monday, and the Deputy Chief of Police, as he is in charge while Chief Heins is away from the office.
KayCe Parsons CPS/CAP
Secretary to the Chief of Police
Jackson Police Department
216 E. Washington Ave.
Jackson, Michigan 49201
517.768.8731 - Direct
517.788.4129 - Fax
kparsons@cityofjackson.org "
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cabman1
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 10:12 pm |
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| I had a talk with cheif matt heins a few weeks in regards to open carry. he had told me that he has retrained the city leos.
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Kimberguy
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 12:47 am |
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| well two of them claimed to know nothing of OC and the other two detained me the first time at burger king. Looks like they need some remedial training.
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T Vance
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:37 am |
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I forgot to mention that we are having an OC picnic to them in the email and invite them to come on down. 
I'll mention it if/when they respond to me.
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Kimberguy
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:38 am |
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I invited the LEOs that pulled me over. I'm sure they will be than happy to attend.
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northofnowhere
Activist Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 01:27 pm |
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I heart Kimberguy. Did you mention even LEO's can OC at the picnic and should reasonably not be afraid of being arrested by a citizen for said offense?
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T Vance
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:15 pm |
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I've heard from several LEO's and even read it somewhere that LEO's are not supposed to OC while off duty. Not sure if it is true or not though. It's not like it's illegal. 
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SpringerXDacp
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:32 pm |
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T Vance wrote: I've heard from several LEO's and even read it somewhere that LEO's are not supposed to OC while off duty. Not sure if it is true or not though. It's not like it's illegal.
It's department policy only, not law. Most, if not all, local PD's and sheriff's departments require off-duty LE to CC.
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T Vance
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 03:14 pm |
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SpringerXDacp wrote: It's department policy only, not law. Most, if not all, local PD's and sheriff's departments require off-duty LE to CC. Which begs the question, why do some LEO's ask some people if they are an officer when they see them OCing?
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Michigander
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 03:25 pm |
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T Vance wrote:Which begs the question, why do some LEO's ask some people if they are an officer when they see them OCing?
Stupidity and ignorance, as well as any other negative trait a human can possess, know no specific race or profession.
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MarineSgt
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 03:48 pm |
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I have seen detectives walking around in street clothes without a badge visible.
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ghostrider
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 04:16 pm |
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Kimberguy wrote: well two of them claimed to know nothing of OC and the other two detained me the first time at burger king. Looks like they need some remedial training.
It is a possibility that they were just plain lying, and that they do know that OC is legal.
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T Vance
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 05:34 pm |
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I'm sure they know it is legal. Kimberguy held that Bob Evans lunch in Jackson the same weekend I was stopped outside of Target in Jackson. After watching my videos from my stop one of the officers said "we've had a bunch of these calls this weekend". And I'm sure the officers talk to each other at the office and have told each other about stopping people that have been OCing. One of the officers in my incident knew that OC was legal, which means the other 2 for my stop knew it was legal, which means someone at their station is telling ALL of them that it is legal. I think it's time to file a lawsuit!
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Springfield Smitty
Regular Member
| Joined: | Fri May 22nd, 2009 |
| Location: | Northwest, MI |
| Posts: | 253 |
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Offline
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 06:19 pm |
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T Vance wrote: I think it's time to file a lawsuit!
I've never understood this concept of trying to talk to them about it in the first place. If we break the law, we are arrested and charged. When we claim to not know the law, we are told that ignorance is no excuse.
Why are we not holding the LEO to the same standard?
I think it is ridiculous to think that "education" should be the first action anyway. This is just my opinion and I am certain I am wrong, so no need to berate me on why I am. I accept the fact and need not be told.
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T Vance
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 07:34 pm |
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I agree and disagree with you Smitty.
I think everyone needs to have the chance to be educated about certain things before being held accountable for their actions. But I also think that "law enforcement officers" should be liable for knowing ALL the laws that pertain to the area (i.e. city, county, state) they work in, or at least radio in to someone that knows more about a certain law before detaining/arresting someone.
I'm sure most people don't feel like spending time and money in court, but if they have had numerous encounters pertaining to OC they should know the law by now, and need to be held accountable for violating certain peoples rights.
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Kimberguy
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 10:18 pm |
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ok, i like having my own thread.... this might be useful... went to Home Depot, as usual nothing... went to Menard's, a lot of people i know there.... nothing, until i went out into the parking lot. I'm driving away and this dude is checking out my truck.... now thos of you who know I am very proud of my truck and i like when ppl notice it. I opened my window because he kept looking back at me, when I did he said "Open carry right?" i get happy, and reply "Yeah" "You know that is CCW rite now right? I'm a cop and i'm calling you in to report you" now, i should have realized who he was. I replied, "I have my CPL as well." "then i'm reporting you to the gun board, didn't you get the warning?" i think when i mentioned my CPL and when he made that last comment we both realized who eachother were. I'm 95% sure it was officer Paul Albrich or however you spell it... Jackson City police. And i'm pretty sure he knew who i was, that explains why he was checking out the back of my truck, he wasn't looking at my paint job, he was checking out my plate...
I'm pretty pissed, i seriously think the guy is following me.
I will be at cascades tonight for anyone who wishes to join me. i'll be there in the next hour or so.
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Veritas
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 10:54 pm |
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northofnowhere wrote: I heart Kimberguy. Did you mention even LEO's can OC at the picnic and should reasonably not be afraid of being arrested by a citizen for said offense?
Most PD's require officers to CC when not on duty.
When you accept privileges, you sometimes waive rights.
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Veritas
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 10:58 pm |
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T Vance wrote: SpringerXDacp wrote: It's department policy only, not law. Most, if not all, local PD's and sheriff's departments require off-duty LE to CC. Which begs the question, why do some LEO's ask some people if they are an officer when they see them OCing?
Probably because not every PD requires officers to conceal while off duty... or perhaps they believe you may be a plain clothes officer and your badge is not visible.
And also, likely, because LEO's tend to look out for eachother. While they may be quick to judge a citizen, they're often more likely to help out a fellow officer. I was riding with an officer buddy once (off duty) who was pulled over for speeding. He flashed his MCOLES card and was released with no further incident.
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Michigander
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 11:01 pm |
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Kimberguy wrote: I'm pretty pissed, i seriously think the guy is following me.
Every time I get harassed by police, I complain to the chief. If I had reason to believe the chief is also corrupt or otherwise out of hand, I'd go to the city council and the mayor, or maybe the FBI.
Not saying I know this situation well enough to make a suggestion about what you should specifically do, but I do suggest you don't take crap off the guy. We can only blame ourselves for problems with the police. They work for us, and when they screw with us, we need to clean up the mess we allowed them to create.
Last edited on Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 11:02 pm by Michigander
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