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T Vance
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 11:01 pm |
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I'll give you guys a little background first. The fiance and myself have been to IKEA 2 times prior to today, and I OCed the other times I was there without incident. The purpose of going there was to build (yes build) and pay for an entertainment center. The previous time we went we spent 3 hours there figuring out what pieces we needed to buy/build this extravagant entertainment center. It was very overwhelming.
Today we decided to go back and finalize this project. We spent about another 3 hours there today going over it again (OCing the entire time)and making some changes to the design. We went to the checkout with a list and quantity of items we were going to purchase and have the supplies shipped to our house (another $100 they would have made!), only to find out that WE have to go to the aisles, load ALL of the boxes onto carts to build this entertainment center, then we could checkout with the items and have them shipped.
We went back to the aisles to locate ALL of the boxes we needed. I had spent about 5- 10 minutes loading only a portion of the heavy boxes onto the carts by myself (well the fiance did help hold the cart), when all of a sudden as I was putting a box onto the cart a Canton LEO approached me and the following was said (I did not have a recorder with me so this is what I can remember - I think I did better this time than the last time!)
LEO 1 - Excuse me sir. Can I talk to for a minute?
Me - Pertaining to what?
LEO 1 - I think you know what I'm here for (as he looks at my hip).
Me - Alright.
LEO 1 - Can I see your ID?
Me - I don't believe I'm required to show you my ID.
LEO 1 - So your not going to give me your ID?
Me - No. I'm not required to give you my ID am I?
LEO 1 - I didn't say you had to give it to me.
Me - Alright.
LEO 1 - So your not going to show me your ID?
Me - No.
LEO 1 - (Pulls out a pad of paper and pen) Well what's your name?
Me - I don't believe I'm required to give you my ID?
LEO 1 - (Starting to get/look upset) So you're not going to tell me your name?
Me - Am I required to give you my name?
LEO 1 - I didn't say you had to give me your name.
Me - Under resonable suspision of what crime am I being detained?
LEO 1 - I never said you were being detained. You are making people nervous here (meanwhile I had butterflies like I had never had before - I almost said "Well you are making me nervous", but I didn't. I didn't want to let him know he was intimidating me) (Sometime during this part of the conversation I also put my hand towards my pocket that was near my handgun to rest my hand. LEO 1's eyes got very big and he started to reach for his gun, at which point I realized what was going on and I quickly crossed my arms across my chest. I was NOT reaching for anything, just trying to rest my thumb in my pocket)
Me - How is that my problem?
LEO - I can see you are being very difficult.
Me - How am I being difficult?
LEO 1 - Look, you are obviously know the laws, otherwise you probably wouldn't be carrying a gun like that. You sure seem like you are a smart guy.
(At this time I notice a 2nd LEO walking away from a man standing about 10 feet behind LEO 1 and approach me. I nod my head at him "like I was saying hello")
LEO 2 - How are you doing today?
Me - Good. How are you.
LEO 2 - Good.
LEO 1 - Well if you want to just hang here for a second I'm going to write you for trespass.
Me - Trespass? Nobody has ever asked me to leave. Let's go outside and we can talk about it out there.
LEO 2 - What group do you belong to?
Me - (I said nothing)
LEO 2 - Porcipine 411?
Me - (Again no reply)
LEO 1 - Well I'm going to write you for trespass.
Me - Nobody has asked me to leave. If you or somebody that works for this store is asking me to leave I will. (at this moment I tried walking between the 2 officers and LEO 1 closed the gap between him and LEO 2 so I could not pass).
(At this moment I noticed the man that was still standing behind the officer's in plain clothes say "I don't want him in our store").
Me - Well I'll leave then.
LEO 1 - Wait, just stay here for a minute.
Me - No. I want to leave.
LEO 1 - (starts saying something, but I didn't hear him because I was thinking of my next line in my head).
Me - Am I being detained?
LEO 1 - No.
Me - Am I free to go?
LEO 1 - Yes (at this moment he opens the gap between him and LEO 2 that he had created)
Me - Come on (fiance), let's go.
(We left all of our stuff on the cart and started to walk towards the exit, with the two LEO's and the IKEA employee following)
LEO 1 - If you come back to IKEA I will cite you for trespassing.
Me - (I turn around, walking backwards so they can hear me) So I am not allowed back in the store if I don't bring a firearm with me (because we had already spent like 6 hours on this entertainment center)?
IKEA Employee - I don't want you back here ever!
Me - Alright
Fiance - Do you realize that we were just about to spend $1600 in your store?
IKEA Employee - I don't care.
Fiance - Can I come back?
IKEA Employee - No. I don't want either of you to come back here.
(I'm getting closer to the exit when I hear this)
LEO 1 - If you ever come back to Canton and open carry I will get you for trespassing!
Me - Excuse me? You're going to cite me for trespassing if I return to Canton and open carry?
LEO 1 - I didn't say that. (Though I know what I heard and my fiance did too!)
(We exited the store and were in the parking lot, with the officer only a few feet behind me, when I looked to my left and noticed the 2 squad cars parked. As we got closer to the car I wondered what the officer was going to do the second I sat in the car with my firearm still on my hip. I thought about opening the trunk and placing the gun in there seperated from the ammo, but decided just to get in the car because I didn't want to touch my gun around him after what he did earlier. When I stopped next to the car waiting for my fiance to unlock the door...)
LEO 1 - Is this you?
Me - Yep.
(LEO 1 then goes to the back of the car and writes down the license plate number, and a 3rd officer arrives at the scene practically blocking our car into the parking spot. We got in the car, started backing out, and the 3rd officer's vehicle slowly moved. We left)
I will be calling the CPD and filing a FOIA and making a complaint with their Chief, and also IKEA Corporate telling them how much money they lost out on. I'll update this post with names and to fix spelling errors as soon as I can.
Last edited on Sun Sep 13th, 2009 01:14 am by T Vance
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office888
Regular Member
| Joined: | Fri Apr 24th, 2009 |
| Location: | Hartford, MI |
| Posts: | 236 |
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Offline
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Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 11:12 pm |
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Aahhh.
Hopefully IKEA corporate will be on our side.
-Richard-
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T Vance
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 11:35 pm |
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| Does anyone have a link to a sample letter that is sent to business about this sort of thing? I'll change things around so that it relates to IKEA and they realize how much money they just lost, not just from me, but other law abiding citizens too.
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mikestilly
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 11:40 pm |
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| Vance I can't believe this happened in Canton. What a bunch of ass wipe's. The trespass card is the usual MO for these cops trying to talk tough. Good thing that the trespass statute is very specific. No judge or even prosecutor would accept a trespass charge when you were never asked to leave/ What was that about porcupine comment? Is that someone from the board?
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DanM
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 11:42 pm |
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T Vance wrote: (I did not have a recorder going so this is what I can remember - I think I did better this time than the last time!)
Yes, sounds like you handled things perfectly. You were under extreme pressure, and you did fine.
To clarify, you didn't have a recorder, or you had a recorder but didn't have it going? Either way, this is why folks need to consider having a recorder AND setting it going before going into public. If folks don't want to suffer from, "Damn, if only I coulda got that recorded!" Because these situations are on you unpredictably and FAST, most of the time.
Well done, though, T Vance.
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mikestilly
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 11:48 pm |
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| Vance definitely handled it great! I hear that trespass crap so often as a lame excuse I'm printing off the damn MCL and carrying it with me. I've actually heard of Porcupine 411 they are a libertarian group. How offensive is that. So because you're open carrying they classify you as a libertarian?? So only libertarians should care about their rights? What friggin nonsense. Sounds like the something Nancy Palosi would say. Last edited on Sat Sep 12th, 2009 11:58 pm by mikestilly
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T Vance
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 11:55 pm |
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mikestilly wrote: What was that about porcupine comment? Is that someone from the board?
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=porcupine+411&search_type=
I've seen a few of these videos before, so I knew what he was talking about.
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T Vance
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 11:56 pm |
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DanM wrote: To clarify, you didn't have a recorder, or you had a recorder but didn't have it going?
I do have a digital recorder, but I didn't use today. I'll be honest, I don't carry it around with me anyway.
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mikestilly
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 11:59 pm |
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| I added to my post above. This crap really pisses me off. What recorded do you guys recommend?
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mikestilly
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 13th, 2009 12:08 am |
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| The Canton picnic should be interesting. You should invite those cops to it. I'm definitely going I love chili lol. Last edited on Sun Sep 13th, 2009 12:09 am by mikestilly
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autosurgeon
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 13th, 2009 12:15 am |
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What a bunch of jackasses! Keep us informed!
And Good job buddy!!!!
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Bikenut
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 13th, 2009 12:21 am |
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What I found .... "interesting" ... is that the officers were playing a little game of trying to help the person of interest (T Vance in this case) not only find something to be guilty of but to also help them find evidence of guilt.............. all by allowing the one being questioned to assume something was being said that wasn't, and had never actually been, said.
Truth be told since the store employee had called the police and articulated that he didn't want T Vance in the store there was no need for police to engage in that elaborate game. A simple statement from the officer that the store wanted T Vance to leave would have been sufficient.
T Vance's knowledge of the law, and how it is applied, is what carried the day.
Edited to add: Good job of staying calm (at least on the outside) while thinking on your feet T Vance!
I have great respect for police officers since there isn't enough money in the world to get me to do their job. Yet it seems upside down when officers go out of their way to "play the game" with someone who is engaged in legal activities.
Friends... and I know I'm speaking to the choir... educating folks that guns alone do not a criminal make is going to be a long and difficult task.
Last edited on Sun Sep 13th, 2009 12:31 am by Bikenut
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Citizen
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 13th, 2009 12:38 am |
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Good going, TVance.
Even though the cops knew where the line was, they wanted to push it.
Don't overlook the illegal detention that occurred when you moved to leave and the officer blocked your path. Nor, the attempt at collecting intelligence on membership in an (pro-rights?) organization.
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T Vance
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 13th, 2009 12:41 am |
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Bikenut wrote: What I found .... "interesting" ... is that the officers were playing a little game of trying to help the person of interest (T Vance in this case) not only find something to be guilty of but to also help them find evidence of guilt.............. all by allowing the one being questioned to assume something was being said that wasn't, and had never actually been, said.
Could you please clarify what you mean in my situation? I'm not following you.
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wally1120
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 13th, 2009 12:50 am |
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| Well T we are tied on Fuzz coming up to us now. But this is some BULLHIT,I am going to OC there sometime soon. When there is a Picnic in Canton I am sure as shi6 going to that. Well antway though I would chime in on the subject and say BULL@#$%. The FUZZ Need to LEAVE US ALONE
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autosurgeon
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 13th, 2009 12:55 am |
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T Vance wrote: Bikenut wrote: What I found .... "interesting" ... is that the officers were playing a little game of trying to help the person of interest (T Vance in this case) not only find something to be guilty of but to also help them find evidence of guilt.............. all by allowing the one being questioned to assume something was being said that wasn't, and had never actually been, said.
Could you please clarify what you mean in my situation? I'm not following you.
He is saying they were trying to get you to admit you were trespassing so they could jam you up!
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DanM
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 13th, 2009 01:00 am |
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mikestilly wrote: What recorded do you guys recommend?
I carry an Olympus WS-321M. Small, slim, digital, and can directly plug into a USB port to d/l the sound files. Sound files are in standard Windows Media format, so no need for proprietary software at all to use the thing. Excellent sound recording quality. I spent a few more bucks on this than other less expensive recorders, but this recorder has proven to me to be worth every dollar I spent on it.
I wear it suspended from a necklace around my neck, just underneath my top layer of clothing. It's in a good position to pick up what I say and what someone I'm facing is saying. It's so slim, there's nothing bulky noticeable on my chest.
Last edited on Sun Sep 13th, 2009 01:02 am by DanM
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autosurgeon
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 13th, 2009 01:02 am |
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I have one in the same family... a WS-400s I really like it!
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Michigander
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 13th, 2009 01:09 am |
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mikestilly wrote: What recorded do you guys recommend?
In my experience, the most reliable electronics I use come from Sony.
What I like to do is either have my recorder going on the hear a sound record it function, or off, but in hand. In the store, I may have used the record only sounds function.
In regards to police stops, I have a theory. If it's not a serious felony stop situation, the first words that come out of your mouth need to be asking if you're being detained. If they say yes, immediately call 911 and ask for help from the MSP because of being illegally detained. If they say no, turn around and walk away. If they stop you, again call 911. If the cop is especially nasty, this may not be possible. But it should be the first thing you want to do. Another benefit of calling 911 is that it WILL be recorded by official means admissable in court.
I know there is a lot of pressure that police know how to exert on you, but just remind yourself constantly, if the police want to question you, SHUT THE @#$% UP AND DON'T TALK TO THEM! It can't help you to talk to them. They'll make you think it will, but IT WON'T.
There are spy video cameras available that take the shape of hats, pens, buttons, watches, and other common objects. If you get stopped, ideally you have one of these devices going from the very beginning to supplement any other actions.
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T Vance
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 13th, 2009 01:15 am |
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Edited my post because I remembered something the officer said, which wasn't much , but I thought I'd add it.
"LEO 1 - Look, you are obviously know the laws, otherwise you probably wouldn't be carrying a gun like that. You sure seem like you are a smart guy. "
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