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lancers
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Posted: Thu Sep 18th, 2008 09:23 pm |
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First time poster here. I have my CCW permit from FL, but I'd like to open carry once in a while.
I've been wanting to open carry in unincorporated St. Louis County, but still can't find a for sure answer if I'll get arrest or not.
I contacted the prosecutor's office and they responded with this:
Dear Mr.______, this office does not give legal advice or advisory
opinions. You may wish to consult an attorney for legal advice. Also you
may view the applicable statute at:
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000030.HTM
I am unaware of any County Ordinances on this but the ordinances are at:
http://www.stlouisco.com/council/archive.html
An ordinance that has concerned me is this:
9. It shall be unlawful for any person carrying a firearm to willfully enter or go upon the premises or property of another, or to fire or discharge any firearm while on the premises or property of another without first having obtained the written permission from the owner, lessee or person in charge of such premises or property, and unless such person has said written permission on his person. This section shall not apply to a person carrying, firing or discharging any firearm while in the immediate presence of the owner, lessee, or person in charge of the property or premises, or to the entry upon the premises for the sole purpose of obtaining the written permission of the owner, lessee or person in charge of the property.
Why does our state leave something like this so up in the air?
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SOVEREIGN ARMS LLC
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 04:41 am |
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Hello There:
Here is the link to the municipal codes for St. Louis County:
http://www.municode.com/RESOURCES/gateway.asp?pid=11512&sid=25
I typed in open gun carry. There are no restrictions on open gun carry (except possibly on the Metro link depending on how you interpret "those licensed to do so" You can CC on the Metro link so if you are feeling constitutionally fit Probably a good idea to have a copy of the municipal code next time you call the PA of a municipality. You would not be asking for legal advice, merely qualifying what the existing laws on the books state. If a PA can't answer then He/She probably should not be a PA(prosecuting attorney)
SOVEREIGN ARMS LLC IS A LICENSED MO/FL CCW INSTRUCTORS AND NRA INSTRUCTORS IN BASIC PISTOL/PPITH/PPOTH/ FEDERAL FIREARMS DEALER:
http://www.sovereignarms.com
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lancers
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 04:49 am |
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When I emailed them, I referred to that specific ordinance about asking permission to go on to other's property. I couldn't find anything related to open carry either, but I'm just worried that when the cops search through the ordinances and see I didn't ask permission from the owner of the property, they'll arrest me on that subsection of the law.
And what really bothers me that the PA (who I've gotten similar responses about other matters) basically says, go try it and then you'll find out if we think it's illegal or not.
Also, I thought I could CC on the Metrolink too legally, but I've found out that's illegal too. It's made illegal under a section related to Metro service in the RsMO.
Last edited on Fri Sep 19th, 2008 04:51 am by lancers
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Shawn
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 01:00 am |
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lancers I couldn't find anything related to open carry either, but I'm just worried that when the cops search through the ordinances and see I didn't ask permission from the owner of the property, they'll arrest me on that subsection of the law. How will they know that you didn't ask or weren't going to ask? When they walk up to you, tell them you do not want to talk, am I free to go? If they say anything else to you, repeat this: I don't want to talk to you, am I free to go?
Please have a recorder on you at all times
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SOVEREIGN ARMS LLC
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 02:15 am |
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Hello:
I'm not sure where you are reading this owner of the property, however who owns public property anyway?
If you want to carry openly you would need the permission of the owner of say a restaurant, or privately owned business were there is a sign posted for no firearms. If no sign is posted / and there is no municipal code prohibiting it then under the constitution you should be able to open carry. We are not attorneys and can not tell you you will not have any legal ramifications or that some leo who doesn't know the law won't arrest you or draw down on you. That is the risk unfortunately we take to participate in the freedoms we are entitled to. If we don't use them we may loose them. If you are wanting more clear advice I still suggest calling or setting up a meeting with the PA and get something in writing or get the PA to clarify the respective municipal codes.
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lancers
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Posted: Thu Sep 25th, 2008 10:31 pm |
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Well I've contacted over 20 police departments in St. Louis County about this. The general consensus is if you open carry, you're gonna have a bad day. Several pointed to that exact St. Louis County Ord. 712.040...
9. It shall be unlawful for any person carrying a firearm to willfully enter or go upon the premises or property of another, or to fire or discharge any firearm while on the premises or property of another without first having obtained the written permission from the owner, lessee or person in charge of such premises or property, and unless such person has said written permission on his person. This section shall not apply to a person carrying, firing or discharging any firearm while in the immediate presence of the owner, lessee, or person in charge of the property or premises, or to the entry upon the premises for the sole purpose of obtaining the written permission of the owner, lessee or person in charge of the property.
They said without the written permission from EVERY property owner, you'll be arrested.
Places that guarantee arrest if you open carry a firearm in their town:
Ellisville (Ordinance against Open Carry)
Maplewood (Tried pointing me to ordinance that relates to carrying on City owned property, then basically implied, try it and you'll be locked up)
Wildwood (They referred to that ordinance about needing permission. Promised trip to jail without it)
Rock Hill (Chief is going to get back to me next week, but said NO OPEN CARRY)
Webster Groves (Said “We believe that State Statutes 571.030.1 and 565.070.1(ASSAULT CHARGE FOR OPEN CARRY!) and our Municipal Code Sec. 70.225 generally prohibit and make illegal any open carry of a weapon in public. Anyone openly carrying a weapon in violation of these Statutes or our Municipal Code would be subject to arrest and prosecution.)
Places it SEEMS to be okay, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to try it
Ladue (The chief was very nice and said he would check into it for me and get back when he found out. He got back to me the next day and said it wasn’t against the law there, but it may concern people)
Chesterfield (a LT. said there were no laws against it, but said "Were someone to be caused sufficient alarm as to be threatened by the presence of the firearm, it is possible that a disturbance charge could result, depending on the scenario.")
Richmond Heights (said it's probably legal, but "I would highly discourage anyone from openly carrying a firearm as it surly would cause alarm by anyone witnessing such behavior.")
Fenton (a Lt. seemed professional and contacted the Fenton PA. They said there was nothing that made it illegal, but also added, “On a personal note I ask that you take careful consideration of the facts at hand if you elect to wear a firearm openly displayed in the City of Fenton , or anywhere for that matter. The open wearing of a firearm will generate concern among the public who see the firearm. Undoubtedly someone will call the police and officers will respond to your location. Usually the call will be dispatched as “man with a gun, flourishing of a weapon in progress, etc. Please understand that upon arrival the responding officers will contact you and attempt to collect enough information to determine whether or not a law violation is occurring. While this is happening I ask only that you exercise patience and cooperate so that the officers can perform the job they are paid to do and clear the call.”
Some others said they would not even discuss anything relating to law or just pointed me towards their ordinances:
Clayton (“Neither I nor this Department is in a position to offer legal advice or render opinions on hypothetical’s. All facts of an event are relevant to a determination of how a give law may apply. We cannot presume to take all potentially relevant facts into account in a hypothetical situation. For that reason we cannot and do not render hypothetical opinions.”)
I’ll post more responses if I get them.
Last edited on Thu Sep 25th, 2008 10:32 pm by lancers
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SOVEREIGN ARMS LLC
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 12:24 am |
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In response to what you said Webster Groves said:
Webster Groves (Said “We believe that State Statutes 571.030.1 and 565.070.1(ASSAULT CHARGE FOR OPEN CARRY!) and our Municipal Code Sec. 70.225 generally prohibit and make illegal any open carry of a weapon in public. Anyone openly carrying a weapon in violation of these Statutes or our Municipal Code would be subject to arrest and prosecution.)
Assault in the third degree.
565.070. 1. A person commits the crime of assault in the third degree if:
(1) The person attempts to cause or recklessly causes physical injury to another person; or
(2) With criminal negligence the person causes physical injury to another person by means of a deadly weapon; or
(3) The person purposely places another person in apprehension of immediate physical injury; or
(4) The person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death or serious physical injury to another person; or
(5) The person knowingly causes physical contact with another person knowing the other person will regard the contact as offensive or provocative; or
(6) The person knowingly causes physical contact with an incapacitated person, as defined in section 475.010, RSMo, which a reasonable person, who is not incapacitated, would consider offensive or provocative.
2. Except as provided in subsections 3 and 4 of this section, assault in the third degree is a class A misdemeanor.
3. A person who violates the provisions of subdivision (3) or (5) of subsection 1 of this section is guilty of a class C misdemeanor.
4. A person who has pled guilty to or been found guilty of the crime of assault in the third degree more than two times against any family or household member as defined in section 455.010, RSMo, is guilty of a class D felony for the third or any subsequent commission of the crime of assault in the third degree when a class A misdemeanor. The offenses described in this subsection may be against the same family or household member or against different family or household members.
"Under sect 3 it stated that one person would PURPOSEFULLY put another person in apprehension of immediate physical injury."
Well excuse me, but there are some leo's I have been around that make me feel that I am in immediate physical danger due to their lack of knowledge of proper procedure, and their own ignorance of the law. Every time I get cut off in traffic I feel I am in immediate physical danger; do you think if I called Webster police dept and reported it as third degree assault they would send the same amount of police out "probably with guns un holstered" to apprehend the driver of the vehicle? Doubt it Webster Groves also stated:
"Said “We believe that State Statutes 571.030.1 and 565.070.1(ASSAULT CHARGE FOR OPEN CARRY!) and our Municipal Code Sec. 70.225 generally prohibit and make illegal any open carry of a weapon in public. "
Without pasting the entirety of the statute it begins with these key words:
" CARRIES CONCEALED
571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:
(1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or
(2) Sets a spring gun; or
(3) Discharges or shoots a firearm into a dwelling house, a railroad train, boat, aircraft, or motor vehicle as defined in section 302.010, RSMo, or any building or structure used for the assembling of people; or
(4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner; or
And their section
Sec. 70.225. Unlawful Use of Weapons Including Concealed Weapons. Is almost verbatum of the MO 571. Take note in section 4 " in a angry or threatening manner." wearing a side arm in a holster is not angry or threatening. Otherwise we could file this charge against any peace/police officer wearing a sidearm.
(4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner; or
This is why we have ccw laws and the entire 571 MO revised statute. It would seem that the St. Louis CO. ordinance #9) in regard to getting permission from every owner would be in direct conflict with CCW holder's rights to carry under MO 571 revised statutes.
Also you should not need permission to be on Public property as it is owned by the taxpayers and should be protected under the 2nd amendment.
Many people being "scared" and feeling threatened is vague and ambiguous, and leaves too much interpretation to a leo who shows up ready to go because there are firearms involved. It is amazing that governments/ municipalities, states, can all pass laws that contradict each other and even violate the rights guaranteed under the constitution to some how "protect" one view over another. While every law passed is a legislation of someone's morality, there is supposed to be a guarantee of Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. To prefer someone's opinion of what made them scared vs. my guaranteed right to bears arms is ridiculous and should be changed or rewritten to be MUCH more clear. I personally feel that too many people in authority that can carry firearms, want to be the only authority as it allows them to interpret/ laws and policies, and by use of force or threats of arrest for (lawful behavior protected under the constitution) to the disregard of the constitutional rights of LAW ABIDING US citizens.
I think that is a part; along with peaceable legal action; and democratic processes, of why our forefathers in grafted the 2nd amendment so allow law abiding citizens to protect themselves from law breaking government.
It is good that you are doing your homework before you OC.
If enough law abiding citizens vote in people that will uphold the constitution we may just see more and more open carry, and the passing of preemption in MO would do away with many of the road blocks you are running into.  Last edited on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 12:36 am by SOVEREIGN ARMS LLC
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deepdiver
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Posted: Sun Sep 28th, 2008 08:00 pm |
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Wow, great leg work guys, especially you lancers. Contacting 20+ municipalities in St. Louis County is impressive initiative!
I personally have not tried to OC in St. Louis City or County as while I am there every month or two, I frankly don't have time to deal with St. Louis LEO hassles during my brief trips there so I just CC. I have OC'd a bit in O'Fallon, MO, as they have a very specific ordinance regarding OC. They re-wrote their statutes regarding CC to match the state and specifically include OC with CC, making OC legal in the same places and manner as CC (excepting the CCW license and concealed part obviously).
The problem in all of the St. Louis metro area, is that there are so many small jurisdictions with gerrymandered city limits, many of which that do specifically ban OC, that it is too very easy to pass in and out of OK to OC jurisdictions into a banned OC jurisdictions, perhaps several times, in a short distance.
Last edited on Sun Sep 28th, 2008 08:01 pm by deepdiver
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