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PavePusher
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Tucson, Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 643 |
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Posted: Sat Jun 13th, 2009 04:06 am |
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A T-shirt is not a uniform. Just ask any First Sgt. (Do NOT ask how I know this...)
Virginian683 wrote:
So if I put on a standard police uniform with a badge and go about town would that also be "expressing my constitutional rights?" What if I put lights and a siren on my car?
I'm sorry, but the public has a right to expect that persons identifying themselves as police actually are police officers. They wear uniforms for a reason.
Personally I get tired of seeing these shirts. Since many departments also use similar shirts at certain times, I always wonder whether I'm looking at a real police officer or not. (Lack of equipment doesn't mean anything. He could be off duty.)
What if there had been some kind of emergency in that restaurant and some one went running up to that guy for help, only to find "oh...uhhh...no I'm not really a cop...I just play one in public."
While I don't agree with the way the cops handled this, this has nothing to do with open carry and seems to me a straightforward case of impersonating police.
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Carnivore
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 13th, 2009 06:31 pm |
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Found a bit of an update..
http://www.madisonrecord.com/news/216591-man-arrested-for-wearing-police-t-shirt-at-christmas-party-sues-belleville-officer
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Virginian683
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 02:29 pm |
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I didn't say it was a uniform. But it is the same as putting on a uniform. He is explicitly identifying himself as a member of the police, which he is not.
PavePusher wrote: A T-shirt is not a uniform. Just ask any First Sgt. (Do NOT ask how I know this...)
Virginian683 wrote:
So if I put on a standard police uniform with a badge and go about town would that also be "expressing my constitutional rights?" What if I put lights and a siren on my car?
I'm sorry, but the public has a right to expect that persons identifying themselves as police actually are police officers. They wear uniforms for a reason.
Personally I get tired of seeing these shirts. Since many departments also use similar shirts at certain times, I always wonder whether I'm looking at a real police officer or not. (Lack of equipment doesn't mean anything. He could be off duty.)
What if there had been some kind of emergency in that restaurant and some one went running up to that guy for help, only to find "oh...uhhh...no I'm not really a cop...I just play one in public."
While I don't agree with the way the cops handled this, this has nothing to do with open carry and seems to me a straightforward case of impersonating police.
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OC-Glock19
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 02:42 pm |
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Carnivore wrote: Found a bit of an update..
Excellent. It sounds like he got a good lawyer.
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deepdiver
Activist Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Missouri USA |
| Posts: | 4629 |
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 09:37 pm |
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Reading the update, I am again struck with a "I can see that happening" reaction based on my observations and experiences in that area.
I am still wondering how the cops got involved in the first place. The whole thing about the cops showing up and asking someone else to ask Weinstein to come talk to them seems somewhat odd. I'm familiar with the bar and well, except for the abusive Belleville LEO it just seems odd.
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9026543
Regular Member
| Joined: | Wed Apr 1st, 2009 |
| Location: | Missouri |
| Posts: | 35 |
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 02:29 am |
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The man did not have on a police uniform. It was merely a T-shirt with the word POLICE on the front and back. According to your thinking if a person was to wear a cap or a T-shirt with the words John Deere on them that person would be trying to impersonate a tractor. If you were to wear a T-shirt with the word Ruger on the front and back would you be impersonating a Ruger firearm? If he would have had the word queer on his shirt would that made him a homosexual? See how silly your line of thinking is?
Virginian683 wrote:
I didn't say it was a uniform. But it is the same as putting on a uniform. He is explicitly identifying himself as a member of the police, which he is not.
PavePusher wrote: A T-shirt is not a uniform. Just ask any First Sgt. (Do NOT ask how I know this...)
Virginian683 wrote:
So if I put on a standard police uniform with a badge and go about town would that also be "expressing my constitutional rights?" What if I put lights and a siren on my car?
I'm sorry, but the public has a right to expect that persons identifying themselves as police actually are police officers. They wear uniforms for a reason.
Personally I get tired of seeing these shirts. Since many departments also use similar shirts at certain times, I always wonder whether I'm looking at a real police officer or not. (Lack of equipment doesn't mean anything. He could be off duty.)
What if there had been some kind of emergency in that restaurant and some one went running up to that guy for help, only to find "oh...uhhh...no I'm not really a cop...I just play one in public."
While I don't agree with the way the cops handled this, this has nothing to do with open carry and seems to me a straightforward case of impersonating police.
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No1
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Jun 25th, 2008 |
| Location: | Zimbabwe |
| Posts: | 114 |
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 11:47 am |
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Task Force 16 wrote: I wonder how the officer would have reacted if the word on the T was spelled PO LICE?
POLITE
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Carnivore
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 02:17 pm |
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| Depending on the supposed "T" shirt violators demeanor, the cops had no right calling the man out based solely on what was printed on his shirt, the cops were wrong!!and I hope the dept. get their asses sued off with a few departmental writeups on the offenders, I've seen plenty of folks wearing those shirts, and I feel the Cops were out to play thug gang tactics on the innocent public. These cops were way out of line !!
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turbodog
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 7th, 2009 01:33 am |
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I do part time work for the state of Louisiana as a motorcycle instructor. Sometimes we do refresher training for motor officers or basic training for future motor officers. One of my students from a local SO gave me a black t-shirt with "Sheriff" printed on front and back. Probably similar to the "police" shirt the guy got arrested for.
I'm proud of the shirt, given to me in thanks for the training he received, and I do wear it occasionally but no one with eyes would ever think I'm a cop.
The law here is pretty clear on impersonating an officer. It has to do with the intent of the person. One could wear a full uniform here and not legally be arrested for impersonation, if, for example, the person was an actor in town for a film shoot. BUT, if this same actor went and used the authority implied by the uniform to do something or go somewhere normally reserved only for real law enforcement personnel, now he has committed impersonation.
Last edited on Tue Jul 7th, 2009 11:54 pm by turbodog
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Jblack44
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 7th, 2009 04:27 pm |
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Then why are these types of clothing available to the general public????
This guy is in the right!!!!! Sue his a$$ off.
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nomidlname
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon May 25th, 2009 |
| Location: | Reno, Nevada USA |
| Posts: | 26 |
| Status: |
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Posted: Mon Jul 13th, 2009 10:55 pm |
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Here's an update about the arresting officer. No update about this specific case though 
At least he's gone 
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/laworder/story/5EA7DBCB10E5C0B3862575E70006561F?OpenDocument
No prosecution in Belleville police abuse claim
By Nicholas J.C. Pistor
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
07/02/2009
BELLEVILLE — A police officer accused of using excessive force will not face criminal charges, St. Clair County State's Attorney Robert Haida said Wednesday.
Jeff Vernatti, the officer, resigned from the Belleville force earlier this year over a man's complaint of being excessively shocked with a stun gun during an arrest at a convenience store.
Belleville Police investigated the complaint and found it valid. They also said Vernatti did not accurately report the incident. Chief William Clay sought Vernatti's termination, and then forwarded the complaint — along with surveillance video of the incident — to the Illinois State Police Public Integrity Unit for a criminal investigation.
Haida said the state police — along with the FBI — investigated the issue and "felt there was insufficient evidence to prove excessive force."
Haida noted, "They were fairly strong in their conclusions."
The complainant, Ralph Graham, was arrested on Jan. 1 after a clerk at a convenience store called police saying an intoxicated man was causing a disturbance and wouldn't leave.
Vernatti was the former police union local president. He could not be reached for comment Wednesday. Capt. Mark Bramlett of the state police would not discus specifics of the investigation, but said "all investigative work was discussed and handed over to the state's attorney."
In 2005, Vernatti and the city were sued over Taser use in a case that later was settled.
Also, Vernatti and the city faced litigation after Vernatti arrested a man for wearing a T-shirt emblazoned with the word "POLICE." Adam C. Weinstein, of St. Charles, sued the department for what he called a violation of his constitutional rights. The status of that suit was unclear on Wednesday.
Last edited on Mon Jul 13th, 2009 11:01 pm by nomidlname
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Beau
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 14th, 2009 04:50 am |
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Virginian683 wrote: So if I put on a standard police uniform with a badge and go about town would that also be "expressing my constitutional rights?" What if I put lights and a siren on my car?
I'm sorry, but the public has a right to expect that persons identifying themselves as police actually are police officers. They wear uniforms for a reason.
Personally I get tired of seeing these shirts. Since many departments also use similar shirts at certain times, I always wonder whether I'm looking at a real police officer or not. (Lack of equipment doesn't mean anything. He could be off duty.)
What if there had been some kind of emergency in that restaurant and some one went running up to that guy for help, only to find "oh...uhhh...no I'm not really a cop...I just play one in public."
While I don't agree with the way the cops handled this, this has nothing to do with open carry and seems to me a straightforward case of impersonating police.
I usually don't post in other states threads. Mostly I read their horror stories and reflect on how good we have it hear in IN. But to the point.
Most of my conversations with other citizens start with them looking at my firearm and asking if I am a cop. By your line of thinking you should not be carrying a firearm openly. This would lead other people to believe you are an officer.
Just because your wearing a pro football jersey does not mean you are impersonating one.
I don't much care for the POLICE t-shirts either. I would never wear one. But never have I assumed someone was an officer simply by wearing one of these shirts.
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