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40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun May 31st, 2009 09:44 pm |
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DJ_Amish wrote: 1.With your type of thinking I would not want you as a partner. 2.I am not saying one round is better than the next. But I have fired many different guns wit hmany different rounds and I prefer the 9mm. I will protect me, my family, other officers, etc just the same as any other round. 3.I have been involved in many test with many rounds of different grains and ammo and the 9mm has been in the top of all. Pppl that say the 9mm is weak and wont even think of owning one, 4.you are just as bad as ppl who think guns are evil.
Okay, to rebut what you've put here:
1. Why not? Do you feel that just because of my 'mistaken opinion' of a caliber that I would be a safety hazard or not? You're basing way too much opinion on way too little information.
2. Yes you are. You're arguing the fact that the 9mm is far superior to any other caliber... Nancy Pelosi!!
3. Where are your results? I want to see an article you've written or some graphs, test-results or something that you've drawn up to substantiate your claim!!
4. I never said I "won't even think of owning one," I just said that I personally don't trust the caliber to protect myself. Now you're telling me that my opinion is faulty and that it's wrong. It's my opinion, therefore I said it. Don't argue with what someone has the opinion of! It's a lot safer!!
Last of all, if the 9mm is such a trusted and reliable caliber, why is there article after article stating the ineffectiveness of it and why are more and more departments moving to something else other than that caliber? Kinda' says something about how effective it is!! The most popular handgun in law enforcement right now is the Glock Model 22 in *gasp* 40S&W. That's a ways from a 9mm. Must be because it's a little more EFFECTIVE!! Even the military was starting to test handguns again in the .45ACP caliber because of reports of how ineffective the 9mm is but stopped the testing because of funding!! Wow, does that prove the effectiveness of the 9mm cartridge wrong?! Must, it can't be as effective as you say it is if everyone's wanting to move away from it!!
Last edited on Sun May 31st, 2009 09:53 pm by 40s-and-wfan
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JBinMontana
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun May 31st, 2009 10:59 pm |
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Years ago, I used to carry a 9mm daily for duty, could I qualify and shoot a 300 out of 300 on a B27 FBI target, you bet as I used to just tear the center mass out of the 10 X region. Could my shots be leathal on a bad guy, you bet they could. Then I upped myself to the .40 super and wonderful  and could shoot like qualifications with that very same cartridge, but personally I did not like the cartridge as some do. No matter what I feel or anyone else feels on this board about the cartridge or caliber that we choose to carry, it is with a choice that we do, and that is why I was finally won over to the .45 ACP. Through experience and knowledge I made that choice, and when I was a rookie, I wish I would have been given the choice instead of the 9mm that was asigned to me because of a mandate.
Now I have to ask, from the original post on this thread SMITH&WESSON M&P PISTOLS NO LONGER AUTHORIZED FOR LASD USE what has this got anything to do with Open Carry, here in Montana.
If one of us decided to carry that same Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm, so what.
What ever you decide to carry, practice, practice and practice some more. Run drills with an empty gun, on drawing and presenting your firearm should you need to use it. When practicing with live fire, shoot the COM area and when out in public be prepared for the unexpected as trouble never makes an appointment.
For the ones that didn't like the picture I posted, get a life for gosh sakes.
Last edited on Sun May 31st, 2009 11:04 pm by JBinMontana
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IDAHO COWBOY
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Posted: Sun May 31st, 2009 11:42 pm |
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Military:
Far most carry 9mm NATO a hot round in FMJ.
Some carry 45 ACP (USMC SOC), some carry 40 S&W, 357 MAG, for whatever they want (SO Navy, Army)
Civilian Peace Officers:
FED's - by very most 40 S&W and 357 SIG, FBI HRT etc some 45 ACP
State Highway Patrol - 357 SIG, 40 S&W, 10 mm some 45 ACP and 9mm
County Sheriff - 10mm, 40 S&W, 357 some 45 ACP and 9mm
City Police - 40 S&W, 9mm, some 45 ACP and 38 Spec
then in some of the above carry as they are allowed just about anything
In short most Peace Officers today in total carry GLOCK in 40 S&W either G22, G23, and/ or 27.
There are kinds of 9mm - STD, P+, P++ - the 9mm of today is not the 9mm of the 1980's or early 1990's
Pro & Con of it all
for "most" handguns - 45 ACP less than rounds of those using 9mm or twice as many rounds with 9mm than 45 ACP
for round for round "practice / training" ammo less costly with 9mm then 45 ACP
Peace Officer in totoal shooting are than 50% in dim or no light, involve more than one bad fellar of gal, 20% hits and 80% misses
Bad fellars and gals like wolves most often travel in packs, be prepared of "4" not "1" or "2" without magazine change in most handguns calls for Primary Handgun in 9mm, 40 S&W, or 357 SIG without a manual safety.
BUG - Back Up Gun - can vary from 22 LR (one Sheriff Office I deal with), 380, 9mm, 40 S&W, 357 SIG, 45 ACP (G36)
(I prefer my Primary and BUG Handgun be of the same caliber in case of breakage, simple ammo logistics, etc)
For those that carry a 3rd Handgun or 2nd BUG - same calibers as the BUG above
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40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 12:28 am |
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Montana Highway Patrol uses either a .357 SIG or a 40S&W. All Law Enforcement in the county uses something other than 9mm for their primary duty gun as none of the Agencies in this county allow anything in 9mm, +P or not, for duty carry. Off-duty, and officer can carry whatever he/she wants. DHS, ATFE and a few others use primarily .357 SIG. It's a 9mm bullet in a 40S&W case and they seem to like it.
Carry whatever you want, but as I said before, I don't trust the 9mm for protecting myself or my family. That's my opinion. If you don't like it, then take a long walk off a short pier cause you're not going to get me to change my mind.
If you don't like the opinions of us Montanan's, don't come here to Montana or don't come here to our states thread!! And most of all, don't come here and badmouth us if you're from another state. We try to show respect for the most part, please do the same for us!
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ghostrider
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 03:34 am |
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40s-and-wfan wrote: ghostrider wrote:Don't know where your getting your info from, but 9mm is a higher pressure round. The greater speed it has transfers to greater kinetic energy.
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx
But hey, if you've got some ballistic charts of a good SD round for .38 Spcl that out perform the 9mm, Then please share. I might be interested in that ammo, but not sure the gun would handle it.
Learn to read and I guarantee you'll find some of the same results I have found. Either that or try try reloading every once in a while! Higher pressure or not, a larger bullet has an advantage in what's called 'Sectional Density' and will out-penetrate a smaller bullet. Keep in mind how a .22LR performs. It can go about 1450FPS with a 40-grain bullet. Now look at a .45ACP, a 230-grain bullet going about 950FPS will out-penetrate with no problem. The same thing goes for a 125-grain bullet in a 9mm and a 140-158-grain bullet in a .38SP, it's just common sense!!
Tell you what, maybe this is easier to comprehend: A 125-grain bullet out of a 9mm will not out-penetrate a 158-grain bullet out of a .357, or a 230-grain bullet from a .45ACP, or a 220-grain bullet from a .41Mag. It's easy to tell what has the advantage as far as performance!!
Like I said, it's called 'Sectional Density' and it's far superior in the larger calibers than it is in a smaller caliber!! Kinda' makes sense, doesn't it!!
Like I said. Find me one factory load for SD in .38 Spcl that has more kinetic energy than a 9mm, and I'll ask where I can get some. Even the +P's don't have the energy of the 9mm.
I linked a ballistic chart for Speer Gold Dots, and event the subsonic 147 grain 9mm round has more energy than the .38 Special in +P.
The main problem with 9mm in the past was that it was so fast that it over penetrated targets, thereby resulting in the energy of the round being used up after exiting the target. The .45ACP was preferred because it's slower speed allowed it to dump more of it's energy into the target than the 9mm. With modern defense rounds, that isn't as much of a concern. Yes, the .45, and .40 do have more energy, but the effectiveness of the 9mm has greatly improved with modern bullet technology, so that it now will not over penetrate as in the past.
.38 Spcl doesn't even come close to 9mm in terms of energy. People think it's a more powerful round because the case is longer, and some of the bullets are heavier than the 9mm, but the proof is in the pudding, and in this case the .38 Spcl just doesn't make any.
Of course, If (Yeah, still waiting for that) you can show us a .38 Spcl SD round that has more energy than a 9mm +P, then I'd be grateful to find some.
OBTW: Speaking of "badmouthing", I can read just fine, thank you very much.
Last edited on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 12:41 am by ghostrider
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ghostrider
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 03:56 am |
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deleted
Last edited on Mon Jun 1st, 2009 04:05 am by ghostrider
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IDAHO COWBOY
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 03:34 pm |
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The LASD has issues with the S&W M&P 9mm HANDGUN, not the 9mm round. The direction of the discussion changed from the Handgun to Round.
"Officer Safety" is the concern of the LASD, in a word "Reliability" and the reason for passing on the article.
S&W M&P Handgun has had some problems before this LASD problem, it happens when new items come on the market the impulse buying begins and grows. No matter who makes what, I wait at least 1 year and 95% of the time 2 or 3 years before I buy, to let the flaws show up in the products, to let the kinks be worked out, while being tested by thousands if not millions of experts, professionals, and wanna bees. This is where the S&W M&P Handgun is now, "it appears".
If I owned one (which I do not) I would sell it as quick as I could (get what dero I could for it and never look back - consider it a life learning experience) then I would buy a "proven" handgun, in a "proven" modern day round, with combination of "proven" handgun and round capacity to initially handle "4" bad fellars or gals = min of 13 rounds (combination of chamber and magazine) i.e. SIG P226, P229 or GLOCK 17, 22, 31, 19, 23, or 32 in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 357 SIG.
If I bought the 357 SIG version I would also buy a spare 40 S&W barrel then could shoot either round - 40 S&W or 357 SIG and vice verus if buy handgun 40 S&W then buy 357 SIG barrel, for depending on situation or location or even availability of ammo on the shelf or battlefield pickup. Yes, carry the spare barrel just like carrying spare magazines, flashlight(S), knife(S), etc, etc
A few comments:
Just as "GhostRifer" points out in his discussions and references, again 9mm today is good stuff and is not the 9mm of years gone by.
Those that use 10mm consider the 40 S&W to be inferior S&W = slow and weak and 40 S&W = a 10mm short.
The 357 SIG is 9mm on steriods or necked down 40 S&W on steriods.
The 357 SIG is the flatest shooting handgun round (100 yard round), the 357 SIG is more "reliable" than anyother handgun round because of the "necked down" brass (think about rifles).
The 45 ACP is over 100 years old and improvement have been in it just like the 9mm. The issue is the diameter of the round nothing else which limits how many can be stuffed into the grip with the grip still being able to be used by most people. If never run into more than "2" bad fellars or gals at a time then no problem, but if run into "3" or "4" bad fellars or gals at one time, then good chance you are going to be on the short end of the stick (run out of rounds, making magazine changes, then they will be all over you like a pack of wolves - snarling, biting, pawing ripping you apart into little bitty pieces just like in Western Montana with the Elk and the Wolf Packs - without mercy and without time outs).
Remember, as Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch says, the handgun is to be used to fight your way back to your rifle which you should have had in the first place. Your rifle / carbine should never be "ideally" more than an arms length away from you 24/7, so this is why you carry a handgun because you cannot always carry a rifle /carbine. Mostly a Handgun is for defense and a Rifle / Carbine is for fighting.
The Glock is the AK of Handgun World.
The SIG is to Hell and Back Reliability.
Allowed to have - Only one Handgun and Only one type of Round, to go anywhere do anything without any support or backup - SIG P226 in 357 SIG.
Remember:
The LASD has issues with the S&W M&P 9mm HANDGUN, not the 9mm round. The direction of the discussion changed from the Handgun to Round.
"Officer Safety" is the concern of the LASD, in a word "Reliability" and the reason for passing on the article.
Keep your powder dry, eyes on the horizon - trees - roof tops not your feet, eyes on the 360 vertical and horizontal not just your 12 and 6, make sure that is solid wall behind your back when having coffee or whatever, make sure you can see all entry and exit points at all times, never go back the same way you came, etc
Enjoy the day - night is coming soon.
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JBinMontana
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 07:46 pm |
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| So again Idaho Cowboy, I will ask. What does LASD getting rid of the S&W M&P have anything to do with Montana Open Carry?
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40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 08:28 pm |
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I would argue as to whether or not the problem is with the pistol and not the shooter! What are the chances that the shooter(s) is limp-wristing the pistol or something? Why is it that everyone things that when something goes wrong, it's always the problem of the pistol and not the shooter?!
I won't carry a .357 SIG because I don't like the bullets or the reason for the creation of the cartridge. I prefer the 40S&W instead.
As for those of you who argue the effectiveness of the 9mm over that of the .45ACP, I have something that you'd all like to read. Check out the following link and tell me what you think afterward. Make sure you read the whole thing!! Not just the paragraph headings. This should be the proof some of you are looking for!!
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm
Have fun and enjoy!!
Again I repeat what JB said, what does the decision of LAPD regarding handgun carry and/or allowability have to do with Montana Open Carry??
Last edited on Mon Jun 1st, 2009 08:36 pm by 40s-and-wfan
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ghostrider
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 10:25 pm |
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40s-and-wfan wrote: I would argue as to whether or not the problem is with the pistol and not the shooter! What are the chances that the shooter(s) is limp-wristing the pistol or something? Why is it that everyone things that when something goes wrong, it's always the problem of the pistol and not the shooter?!
I won't carry a .357 SIG because I don't like the bullets or the reason for the creation of the cartridge. I prefer the 40S&W instead.
As for those of you who argue the effectiveness of the 9mm over that of the .45ACP, I have something that you'd all like to read. Check out the following link and tell me what you think afterward. Make sure you read the whole thing!! Not just the paragraph headings. This should be the proof some of you are looking for!!
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm
Have fun and enjoy!!
Again I repeat what JB said, what does the decision of LAPD regarding handgun carry and/or allowability have to do with Montana Open Carry??
Good read.
I was actually surprised that the .45 didn't provide better results in his experiences.
Thanks for the link.
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IDAHO COWBOY
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| Joined: | Thu Apr 30th, 2009 |
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 06:01 pm |
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Citizen Safety in Montana (or anywhere else in the world where the internet pops up) same as LASD stated Officer Safety. As pointed out in all my posts.
All any of us can do is inform about issues.
Would not like to read about someone trying to use a S&W M&P of any caliber (they are all deisgned the same way) that failed to function anytime much less at a critical time when they could have been informed of the problems withe S&W M&P then on their own decided to make the decision to use something else that has a proven record for years like an i.e. SIG or GLOCK.
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JBinMontana
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 06:28 pm |
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Idaho Cowboy, I can think of many firearms that agencies are or have had problems with, they purchase in bulk on contract, and so can get problems. This happens when new recruits use them on the range firing for the first time etc.
We here would rather see someting useful that pertains to Open Carry here in Montana. I appreciate your concern for our safety based on LASD, but I if interested would investigate it further. As a matter of fact, I probably now would go out and purchase a S&W M&P just to see if it will have problems.
My guess is the writter of the report inflated the actual FTF that were reported, just to get LASD to purchase something else.
Again lets stick to Open Carry Issues here in Montana please.
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40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 06:54 pm |
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IDAHO COWBOY wrote:
If I owned one (which I do not) I would sell it as quick as I could (get what dero I could for it and never look back - consider it a life learning experience) then I would buy a "proven" handgun, in a "proven" modern day round, with combination of "proven" handgun and round capacity to initially handle "4" bad fellars or gals = min of 13 rounds (combination of chamber and magazine) i.e. SIG P226, P229 or GLOCK 17, 22, 31, 19, 23, or 32 in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 357 SIG.
This is about the most ridiculous comment I've ever had the pleasure of reading. I don't see the necessity to sell a handgun just because you hear of ONE incident where someone had problems with it. Every handgun/rifle/firearm is going to have at least one 'Bad Apple' in it's barrel. I would be willing to bet that whatever handgun is out there, you can find at least one story where it's had problems of one type or another.
In the opinion of dang near everyone out there, every single caliber has proven itself in one instance or another as a 'proven' round. I personally don't like the 9mm, but there are those that do. If you choose to carry the M&P 9mm then great, if you want to carry something else that's terrific too! I don't like Glock's either, but lots of people do. If they want to carry one that's fine with me, you just won't catch me carrying one, or anyone in my family! To combine the two, I sure as heck won't carry a Glock in 9mm.
To sell a gun because of another persons problem is pretty narrow-minded in my opinion. Not all guns are going to function to perfection. You're looking for a perfect gun in an imperfect world! Just learn how to come to grips with the fact that there's going to be problems with whatever you carry somewhere in the world. Get over it and learn to get around it. I'd love to have a 9mm handgun that I can build a silencer for, but I won't carry it for defensive purposes!
Like I said, You're looking for perfection in an imperfect world!!
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MT GUNNY
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 09:14 pm |
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I will own a M&P over any Glock!
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowup_images/glock4.jpg
http://www.frontsight.com/Images/DamagedGlock21/Glock21FrameCloseUp_640x480.gif
http://media.photobucket.com/image/Blown%20Glock%20barrels/tsegeela/PICT0036.jpg
http://www.asrpa.com/assets/images/Blown_Glock.jpg
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9000/pics005oz9.jpg
http://www.pishtov.com/Glock/glock_kaboom_photo.jpg
Last edited on Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 09:20 pm by MT GUNNY
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ghostrider
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 09:17 pm |
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MT GUNNY wrote: I will own a M&P over any Glock!
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowup_images/glock4.jpg
http://www.frontsight.com/Images/DamagedGlock21/Glock21FrameCloseUp_640x480.gif
http://media.photobucket.com/image/Blown%20Glock%20barrels/tsegeela/PICT0036.jpg
http://www.asrpa.com/assets/images/Blown_Glock.jpg
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9000/pics005oz9.jpg
Ohh boy, Here we go.
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40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 09:27 pm |
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All I gotta say is that I wouldn't want to be any of the shooters that had a hold of those pistols when the sewage hit the fan!! Kinda' makes you wonder what they were using in the way of ammo, doesn't it?! I've seen stuff along these lines with revolvers too, where the cylinder was blown open/apart due to some pretty bad loads or something to that effect.
These could have been caused by negligence in reloading. Not paying attention to what's being done and accidentally putting a double-charge of powder in the case before tamping a bullet down on top of it. I haven't a clue as to what caused it but with all due respect to MT GUNNY, this doesn't mean the gun is poorly made. As I said, it could be the fault of the ammunition and not the gun. We'll never know. I would be willing to bet that if the person who loaded that ammo (if in fact it was caused by negligence) probably won't even own-up to causing these mishaps.
Oh well, enough said. Hopefully (however they happened) the shooters learned a lesson and don't repeat whatever caused it in another gun.
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40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 09:28 pm |
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Double post. Sorry.
Last edited on Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 09:28 pm by 40s-and-wfan
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JBinMontana
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 12:00 am |
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The same could be said for 1911's, as the first reported KB was a 1911. And now you ask, how can that be it's not made of fantastic plastic? Well it can happen to Sigs, Kimbers, H&K's, S&W's, Colts, Brownings, Taurus etc, etc, etc 
I can show you pictures of Ruger revolvers that have been KB'd
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ghostrider
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 12:39 am |
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JBinMontana wrote: The same could be said for 1911's, as the first reported KB was a 1911. And now you ask, how can that be it's not made of fantastic plastic? Well it can happen to Sigs, Kimbers, H&K's, S&W's, Colts, Brownings, Taurus etc, etc, etc
I can show you pictures of Ruger revolvers that have been KB'd
I remember seeing a pic of a Blackhawk posted on the net a year or so ago that had KB'd.
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SW-sigma
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 07:16 am |
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| Not real sure on all the facts but what ammo do the cops use because I had a guy talk me into purchaseing 147gr hydra shock and most of the smith and wesson line thats not gonna work it wouldnt feed problem after problem then switched to hornady critical defence and not one problem.
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