| Author | Post |
|---|
MT GUNNY
Regular Member
|
Posted: Sun Jun 21st, 2009 10:50 pm |
|
Apparently Post Office parking lots are a Gun Free zone!
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5699102#post5699102
There is great speculation as to the law yet it looks pretty clear.
I Wonder what Gary Marbut thinks of this issue?
I wonder if the MT's Federal School zone Exemption would help in a court case?
Last edited on Sun Jun 21st, 2009 10:52 pm by MT GUNNY
|
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
|
Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 12:55 am |
|
You know, it seems to me the post office thing might solve rather easily.
The post office is on the ropes financially. Competition from UPS, Fed Ex, etc. seems to have hurt them.
If all umpty-million gun owners said, "We not shipping USPS until the gun ban is gone", I'm betting they would quickly redefine "lawful purposes" to include the same forms of carry as the state in which the post office is situated.
Just let their income drop off a couple months in a row.
Last edited on Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 12:56 am by Citizen
|
JBinMontana
Regular Member
|
Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 03:21 am |
|
| The Post Office parking lot has always been a free zone, the wording is that you can not carry a firearm into the buildings.
|
zigziggityzoo
Campaign Veteran
|
Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 01:56 pm |
|
JBinMontana wrote:
The Post Office parking lot has always been a free zone, the wording is that you can not carry a firearm into the buildings.
Wrong. The wording is that you cannot carry on Postal property. Not in the building, but on the property (which includes the building, and the land they own).
First, 39 USC 410 exempts Post Offices from 18 USC 930,
(a) Except as provided by subsection (b) of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service.
(b) The following provisions shall apply to the Postal Service:
(1) section 552 (public information), section 552a (records about individuals), section 552b (open meetings), section 3102 (employment of personal assistants for blind, deaf, or otherwise handicapped employees), section 3110 (restrictions on employment of relatives), section 3333 and chapters 72 (antidiscrimination; right to petition Congress) and 73 (suitability, security, and conduct of employees), section 5520 (withholding city income or employment taxes), and section 5532 (dual pay) of title 5, except that no regulation issued under such chapters or section shall apply to the Postal Service unless expressly made applicable;
(2) all provisions of title 18 dealing with the Postal Service, the mails, and officers or employees of the Government of the United States;
and then we turn to postal regulations: 39 CFR 232.1, which clearly does prohibit guns in post offices. In pertinent part, it states:
(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
So the answer is that carry on postal PROPERTY is prohibited, not just within a postal building. This means that a parking lot that belongs to the post office is prohibited.
The above bolded statement is what's actually in question. Whether or not carrying under authority of a concealed license, or with license granted from the laws of the state (in the case of Vermont, Montana, and others) qualifies as an "official purpose."
|
NavyLT
Regular Member
|
Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 04:16 pm |
|
Additionally, the federal regulation which applies to post office PROPERTY, 39 CFR 232.1 also makes it illegal to STORE a weapon on post office PROPERTY.
The state of Montana CANNOT tell the Federal government, which has control of post office PROPERTY what they must and must not allow on Federal government property.
A concealed weapons license or permit is not making carrying a weapon an OFFICIAL purpose. Does having a driver's license make driving your vehicle for OFFICIAL purposes? NO. Official Purpose means something that is associated with duties assigned to you BY LAW or having somehing to do with official useage related to the post office and that particular item - IE: mailing a long gun or an FFL mailing a handgun. Buying stamps does not mean that official purpose applies to your firearm because the two are completed unrelated, legally speaking, maybe just not to you personally.
|
lockman
State Researcher
| Joined: | Sat Aug 19th, 2006 |
| Location: | Elgin, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 638 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 06:15 pm |
|
| Even on duty police mailing a personal letter are committing this misdemeanor offense because their business is not "official".
|
JBinMontana
Regular Member
|
Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 12:17 am |
|
The parking lot is open to the general public and the property that is refered to under this section is clearly marked, around back where the postal trucks deliver and pick up. This section is also enclosed by a high barbed wire fence and clearly marked as US Federal Property, and is not intended for public use.
The parking lot out front is not covered under said law you are quoting.
Last edited on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 12:24 am by JBinMontana
|
NavyLT
Regular Member
|
Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 01:06 am |
|
JBinMontana wrote: The parking lot is open to the general public and the property that is refered to under this section is clearly marked, around back where the postal trucks deliver and pick up. This section is also enclosed by a high barbed wire fence and clearly marked as US Federal Property, and is not intended for public use.
The parking lot out front is not covered under said law you are quoting.
So, then, by that reasoning, you could carry into the part of the building that is open to the public as well.
You appear to be mistaken.
The first paragraph of 37 CFR 232.1:
(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property. This section shall not apply to—
(i) Any portions of real property, owned or leased by the Postal Service, that are leased or subleased by the Postal Service to private tenants for their exclusive use;
(ii) With respect to sections 232.1(h)(1) and 232.1(o), sidewalks along the street frontage of postal property falling within the property lines of the Postal Service that are not physically distinguishable from adjacent municipal or other public sidewalks, and any paved areas adjacent to such sidewalks that are not physically distinguishable from such sidewalks.
Also if you look at the section directly above the weapons section:
(k) Vehicular and pedestrian traffic. (1) Drivers of all vehicles in or on property shall be in possession of a current and valid state or territory issued driver's license and vehicle registration, and the vehicle shall display all current and valid tags and licenses required by the jurisdiction in which it is registered. (2) Drivers who have had their privilege or license to drive suspended or revoked by any state or territory shall not drive any vehicle in or on property during such period of suspension or revocation. (3) Drivers of all vehicles in or on property shall drive in a careful and safe manner at all times and shall comply with the signals and directions of security force personnel, other authorized individuals, and all posted traffic signs. (4) The blocking of entrances, driveways, walks, loading platforms, or fire hydrants in or on property is prohibited. (5) Parking without authority, parking in unauthorized locations or in locations reserved for other persons, or continuously in excess of 18 hours without permission, or contrary to the direction of posted signs is prohibited. This section may be supplemented by the postmaster or installation head from time to time by the issuance and posting of specific traffic directives as may be required. When so issued and posted such directives shall have the same force and effect as if made a part hereof.
Clearly the CFR applies to the public parking lot under the control of the Post Office, and the weapons section does too.
Last edited on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 01:12 am by NavyLT
|
JBinMontana
Regular Member
|
Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 01:47 am |
|
No Dummy, you can not carry in the building, or any federal building for that matter. You just jackass enough to wage a war here to prove something. I've stood in our Post Office parking lot out front, and most on this forum that live in Kalispell, know which parking lot along Meridian Rd with a Postal Police Office, KPD and Flathead County Sheriff's Deputy while armed I might add and not one word was spoken about my carrying, simply because I was not breaking the law.
Now if you want to think you can not have your firearm on your person in the open parking lot, then so be it.
Last edited on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 01:50 am by JBinMontana
|
NavyLT
Regular Member
|
Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:08 am |
|
JBinMontana wrote: No Dummy, you can not carry in the building, or any federal building for that matter. You just jackass enough to wage a war here to prove something. I've stood in our Post Office parking lot out front, and most on this forum that live in Kalispell, know which parking lot along Meridian Rd with a Postal Police Office, KPD and Flathead County Sheriff's Deputy while armed I might add and not one word was spoken about my carrying, simply because I was not breaking the law.
Now if you want to think you can not have your firearm on your person in the open parking lot, then so be it.
It's already been shown to you in the applicable regulations where carrying in Federal buildings as referenced in 18 USC 930 is NOT related to the post office regulation contained in 39 CFR 232.1. Additionally, what makes you think that KPD and Flathead Countty Sheriff's Deputy had authority to enforce 39 CFR 232.1. I'll bet you don't know who has authority to enforce 39 CFR 232.1.
(q) Enforcement. (1) Members of the U.S. Postal Service security force shall exercise the powers provided by 18 U.S.C. 3061(c)(2) and shall be responsible for enforcing the regulations in this section in a manner that will protect Postal Service property and persons thereon. (2) Local postmasters and installation heads may, pursuant to 40 U.S.C. 1315(d)(3) and with the approval of the chief postal inspector or his designee, enter into agreements with State and local enforcement agencies to insure that these rules and regulations are enforced in a manner that will protect Postal Service property. (3) Postal Inspectors, Office of Inspector General Criminal Investigators, and other persons designated by the Chief Postal Inspector may likewise enforce regulations in this section.
So, unless there was a specific agreement with the approval of the chief postal inspector, the local cops wouldn't have authority to enforce the regulation. Even if they did, your case would be required to be heard in a Federal court.
(p) Penalties and other law. (1) Alleged violations of these rules and regulations are heard, and the penalties prescribed herein are imposed, either in a Federal district court or by a Federal magistrate in accordance with applicable court rules. Questions regarding such rules should be directed to the regional counsel for the region involved.
So just what makes you think that your Kalispell local yocals would be interested in traveling to the nearest Federal District Court for the District of Montana in order to see you get a $50 fine or 30 days in jail? Especially when no part of the fine would even go into local coffers for their benefit?
Did you ever think that maybe they just don't give a rat's ass about good 'ole JB carrying his shooter in a parking lot, but that it still might be against a Federal regulation?
|
JBinMontana
Regular Member
|
Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 12:58 pm |
|
| No NavyLt none of us that day were breaking the law by carrying in the parking lot... AS there was a US Postal Police Officer in the bunch, who would be the enforcer of that regulation had I of been breaking the federal code.
|
IDAHO COWBOY
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Apr 30th, 2009 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 194 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 06:30 pm |
|
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Concealed-carry-in-a-post-office-may-lead-to-rude-awakening
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5699102#post5699102
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum34/27498.html
http://en.wordpress.com/tag/carrying-a-gun-into-a-post-office/
Lots of opinions. Just like here.
These laws are stupid, just follow the Second Amendment, no other "Arms" laws desired or required.
I have seen these discussions for many years, just opinions abound.
I just called the USPS - Postal Inspection and Postal Consumers Affairs in Seattle, WA which is over MONTANA for the USPS, transferred many times and no answers, teeth rattling and kness knocking to not answer the question. I just sent off an e-mail via the internet to the Senators of MT WY and ID for "their opinions" by requesting an letter from their office that is for public viewing on the internet and copying for distribution for to everyone to carry on their person when they go to the Post Office.
There needs to be a Grass Roots movement to get Congress to pass a law to allow carry "inside and outside" public access areas of Post Office property - parking, buying stamps, dropping off and picking up mail, i.e. in accordance with (IAW) State law (meaning in MT open or concealed carry with tomahawk, bowie knife, handgun, rifle, or shotgun) - Public building paid for by our tax dollars to conduct routine business just like at a grocery store, gas station, or whatever.
Write your Senators and Reps - let's get it started.
Many Citizens go to the Post Office to buy postage stamps, pickup mail, and drop of mail on a routine basis:
a. why should they have to go unarmed if they legally own firearms.
b. if they have been hunting or doing many other outdoor activities or can carry legally without or with a permit - why should they have to go home to leave their firearms before going to the Post Office or park across the street from the Post Office (think about the elderly and handicapped or the weather is 40 below zero, snow 2 feet deep, and wind blowing 50 mph).
In the words of John Wayne - A True Real American - " If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?' "
JB Montana - you received a "pass" in the parking lot, "a look the other way".
|
40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
|
Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 07:58 pm |
|
You'd think if all this stuff was true, they'd have some kind of sign restricting the carry of any firearms outside the facility, when you're dropping off letters in those little blue boxes for instance. Since they don't, I really don't care about it and have no intention of leaving any firearm at home because I intend on mailing anything. Whenever I go to check my P.O. box, I take my pistol out and leave it in the car! I'll be damned if I'm going to be away from my pistol for any length of time!!
Post Offices are getting to be dangerous enough with postal workers getting robbed, shot, Post Offices getting shot up and people getting killed. It happens quite often and I try not to go into those places if I don't have to. If I do, I spend as little time in there as possible.
Kinda' goes along the lines of a bank or other financial institution. I can't carry concealed in there, so I don't!!
|
NavyLT
Regular Member
|
Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 08:17 pm |
|
40s-and-wfan wrote: You'd think if all this stuff was true, they'd have some kind of sign restricting the carry of any firearms outside the facility, when you're dropping off letters in those little blue boxes for instance. Since they don't, I really don't care about it and have no intention of leaving any firearm at home because I intend on mailing anything. Whenever I go to check my P.O. box, I take my pistol out and leave it in the car! I'll be damned if I'm going to be away from my pistol for any length of time!!
Post Offices are getting to be dangerous enough with postal workers getting robbed, shot, Post Offices getting shot up and people getting killed. It happens quite often and I try not to go into those places if I don't have to. If I do, I spend as little time in there as possible.
Kinda' goes along the lines of a bank or other financial institution. I can't carry concealed in there, so I don't!!
You can't carry in a bank!  WOW! I am glad I live in a FREE state like Washington! 
|
40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
|
Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 08:22 pm |
|
WRONG. Maybe your statement holds true in Washington, but not here in Montana. In our fair state here, you cannot carry concealed inside a financial institution or in a place where alcohol is dispensed, sold and consumed in the same room, aka a bar. You can however carry openly in said locations unless someone at that facility asks you to leave!!
|
NavyLT
Regular Member
|
Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 08:37 pm |
|
40s-and-wfan wrote: WRONG. Maybe your statement holds true in Washington, but not here in Montana. In our fair state here, you cannot carry concealed inside a financial institution or in a place where alcohol is dispensed, sold and consumed in the same room, aka a bar. You can however carry openly in said locations unless someone at that facility asks you to leave!!
I am not sure why you wrote "WRONG". I never stated anything at all about the validity of your statement. I merely stated that I was glad that we could carry concealed or openly in a bank in Washington. I guess you must have thought I was trying to correct your statement about not carrying in the bank, that's not what I meant to do. Just poke a little fun at Montana, often presented to be the "free-est" state in the union practically, by stating that Washington, in one area, has less restrictions.
Last edited on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 08:39 pm by NavyLT
|
40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
|
Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 08:41 pm |
|
Okay, straight from the United States Postal Inspection Service, I just got off the phone with them and they said, (drum roll please): Technically it is illegal, but the USPIS considers it a grey area, if you're just going through there to mail a letter in the blue boxes outside or cutting through the lot you're fine, but you still cannot carry inside the facility as we all know!!
I don't know why everyone sits on here and argues the fact, why can't anyone just call like I did? Seems like if you wanted to know the truth, getting it straight from the horse's mouth would make the most sense, but some people aren't that intelligent!
I told the Postal Inspector that I talked to that just because it is technically illegal, I still won't leave my handgun at home just because I'm going to mail a letter in the box outside! After telling her about the allowability and legality of carrying a gun here in Montana, I won't be without my handgun for anyone!!
I told her it's common-place to see someone driving around with a rifle in the back window of their truck or to find that someone is carrying concealed! After being a cop and knowing of the increased rise in crime, it's not gonna stop me from carrying. I guess I look at it along the same lines as the book 'Living with Glocks' written by Robert H. Boatman. A chapter in that book titled The Constitutional Right and Social Obligation to Carry a Gun states that if you can't live with carrying illegally in some cases depending on where you go, you probably shouldn't carry at all!!
Do a google search on the Title of that chapter and read it y'all! It makes more sense than I can make of it just by explaining it!!
Last edited on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 08:48 pm by 40s-and-wfan
|
40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
|
Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 08:43 pm |
|
Sorry about that NavyLt, I think I did read your post wrong!! I did in fact thing you were trying to argue the validity of what I said!
|
NavyLT
Regular Member
|
Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 08:43 pm |
|
40s-and-wfan wrote: Okay, straight from the United States Postal Inspection Service, I just got off the phone with them and they said, (drum roll please): Technically it is illegal, but the USPIS considers it a grey area, if you're just going through there to mail a letter in the blue boxes outside or cutting through the lot you're fine, but you still cannot carry inside the facility as we all know!!
I don't know why everyone sits on here and argues the fact, why can't anyone just call like I did? Seems like if you wanted to know the truth, getting it straight from the horse's mouth would make the most sense, but some people aren't that intelligent!
I told the Postal Inspector that I talked to that just because it is technically illegal, I still won't leave my handgun at home just because I'm going to mail a letter in the box outside! After telling her about the allowability and legality of carrying a gun here in Montana, I won't be without my handgun for anyone!!
I wrote them an email this morning, simply because I wanted to have a quote to post. And the answer is what most of us have been saying, yes it is illegal in the parking lot, but nobody really gives a rat behind.
|
40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
|
Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 08:49 pm |
|
Exactly!! She said it kinda' falls under the 'What they don't know won't hurt them' train of thought!!
|
Current time is 10:40 am | Page: 1 2   |
|
|
|
