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Augustin
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 08:15 pm |
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I recently rode the bus in Missoula for the first time and noticed a list of rules posted in the terminal lobby. The same is also stated on their website.
http://www.mountainline.com/index.php/ride/safety/
Additionally, the following items are prohibited on Mountain Line:
- Gasoline and other flammable liquids
- Firearms, BB guns, airguns, and knives
- Animals (except service animals and animals confined to a carry-on, lap size box)
- Car batteries
- Fireworks
No weapons of any kind are allowed on Mountain Line vehicles, at the Mountain Line Transfer Center or on any Mountain Line property.
(end of quote)
There is a preemption law in Montana (45-8-351, M.C.A.) that prevents local governments from passing gun control ordinances. Mountain Line is a public transit agency created by the voters in 1976.
Doesn't this policy conflict with Montana's firearm preemption law ?
45-8-351. Restriction on local government regulation of firearms. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), no county, city, town, consolidated local government, or other local government unit may prohibit, register, tax, license, or regulate the purchase, sale or other transfer (including delay in purchase, sale, or other transfer), ownership, possession, transportation, use, or unconcealed carrying of any weapon, including a rifle, shotgun, handgun, or concealed handgun.
(2) (a) For public safety purposes, a city or town may regulate the discharge of rifles, shotguns, and handguns. A county, city, town, consolidated local government, or other local government unit has power to prevent and suppress the carrying of concealed or unconcealed weapons to a public assembly, publicly owned building, park under its jurisdiction, or school, and the possession of firearms by convicted felons, adjudicated mental incompetents, illegal aliens, and minors.
(b) Nothing contained herein shall allow any government to prohibit the legitimate display of firearms at shows or other public occasions by collectors and others, nor shall anything contained herein prohibit the legitimate transportation of firearms through any jurisdiction, whether in airports or otherwise.
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IDAHO COWBOY
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 05:27 am |
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Missoula, Bozeman, and Billings have the same BS rule.
Great Falls and Helena have no such BS rule.
Contact in writing and request reply in writing their authority under what law to enforce this BS rule - City Mayor, Chief of Police, and Attorney
Contact each separate, use e-mail or letter - get a response in writing - then compare the responses.
From a reliable source "This prohibition is not enforceable"
Do not be a test case --- write and get replies then report back
In addition call and request a written response:
Mike Batista, Administrator, Montana Department
of Justice, Criminal Investigation Division (444-3874)
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40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Nov 16th, 2009 12:48 am |
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Is the Mountain Line bus service a city-run entity or is it privately done? If it's privately run it wouldn't be any different than a local business owner saying he/she doesn't allow firearms in their business. If it's city/government property then it would fall under not allowing firearms on any government property.
Does anyone know the answer about who owns/runs/governs the Mountain Line Bus Service? I'm not trying to justify this in any way, shape, form or fashion. I just respect the wishes of those who don't like my firearm and choose to shop or take my services elsewhere!!
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IDAHO COWBOY
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Posted: Mon Nov 16th, 2009 07:08 am |
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40s-and-wfan wrote: Is the Mountain Line bus service a city-run entity or is it privately done? If it's privately run it wouldn't be any different than a local business owner saying he/she doesn't allow firearms in their business. If it's city/government property then it would fall under not allowing firearms on any government property.
Does anyone know the answer about who owns/runs/governs the Mountain Line Bus Service? I'm not trying to justify this in any way, shape, form or fashion. I just respect the wishes of those who don't like my firearm and choose to shop or take my services elsewhere!!
Read the law the words again vice personal opinion, does not say property or vehicle, read the post again public not private, ask the Law Firm in Missoula listed on MSSA web site and ask MSSA President. Then post their response - word for word.
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Augustin
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Posted: Tue Nov 17th, 2009 04:07 am |
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40s-and-wfan wrote: Is the Mountain Line bus service a city-run entity or is it privately done? If it's privately run it wouldn't be any different than a local business owner saying he/she doesn't allow firearms in their business. If it's city/government property then it would fall under not allowing firearms on any government property.
Right. Public vs. private is the issue. Their website reads, "Mountain Line is a public transit agency, providing service to Missoula, MT and The University of Montana."
It also states, "The Missoula Urban Transportation District (MUTD) was established by voters in June of 1976. The vote established taxing authority for the creation of the district and passed by a margin of 2 to 1. The resulting service, known as Mountain Line, began operating in December 1977."
And, "Mountain Line is an independent agency that has been offering transportation options to the Missoula area since December of 1977. A seven-member board of directors appointed by elected officials in the City and County government oversees the organization."
So their Board of Directors is appointed by City and County elected officials. Sound PUBLIC to me, but I don't know for sure.
AUGustin
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40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 17th, 2009 06:46 am |
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| "Public Transportation" is right, but since the directors were appointed by the City Counsel, does that mean it's an entity of the Missoula City Government? If so, it's considered government property and one cannot carry, concealed or open, on government property!
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IDAHO COWBOY
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Posted: Tue Nov 17th, 2009 07:20 am |
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40s-and-wfan wrote: "Public Transportation" is right, but since the directors were appointed by the City Counsel, does that mean it's an entity of the Missoula City Government? If so, it's considered government property and one cannot carry, concealed or open, on government property!
Read the law the words again vice personal opinion, does not say property or vehicle, read the post again public not private, ask the Law Firm in Missoula listed on MSSA web site and ask MSSA President. Then post their response - word for word.
In addition call and request a written response:
Mike Batista, Administrator, Montana Department
of Justice, Criminal Investigation Division (444-3874)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Too many "shade tree rocking chair lawyers on forums", go to the source - Law Firm in Missoula, MSSA, and Montana Dept of Justice.
Never ask a Peace Officer current or has been or retired about the law, end up with personal opinions instead of facts.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
40s-and-wfan - Remember what you said about Post Office parking lot carry in a vehicle and on the body, for days on this forum, then you finally confirmed yourself with the fed's what I had been saying for days was correct and you were mistaken. Same situation here.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
At least working corrections in a building, you can stay warm in the winter versus being in a patrol car giving out speeding and parking tickets freezing in the sub zero temps ! Watch your six in the CQ.
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40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 17th, 2009 07:39 am |
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IDAHO COWBOY wrote:
1. Too many "shade tree rocking chair lawyers on forums", go to the source - Law Firm in Missoula, MSSA, and Montana Dept of Justice.
2. Never ask a Peace Officer current or has been or retired about the law, end up with personal opinions instead of facts.
3. At least working corrections in a building, you can stay warm in the winter versus being in a patrol car giving out speeding and parking tickets freezing in the sub zero temps ! Watch your six in the CQ.
1. Sounds about like the pot calling the kettle black if you ask me. Sir you've come on this thread several times and made quite a few feeble attempts at stirring the pot with controversy and everyone here (those that have been on here a while and know your reputation), has been ignoring you for the most part! At this point, I would like to respectfully request that from now on you keep your comments on-topic and refrain from adding in "personal opinion" where you think it needs to be interjected.
2. As for your comment about never asking a peace officer "...current or has been or retired" about the law due to the fact that you feel you'll be lied to or only told personal opinion; I would like to ask you at this point to not insult my past history as a law enforcement officer or that of my friends and acquaintances on this forum. There are many of us on here and I take this as not only an insult to my personal character and my excellent reputation as a Police Officer, but as an insult to all other LEO's on here as well! Please do not do that again!!
3. I believe you just threatened me in the third comment you made. The last one about watching my six. Your entire thread will be reported to the moderator and will hopefully be treated as the threat it was meant as!! Again, don't do that to me again.
If your comments don't pertain to those in the thread your responding to, please keep them to yourself! As for fact or fiction on this thread, I never once said my word on here was gospel. If you'll use your grade-school education to read the way my statement was worded, you'll see that it was posed as a question: "...does that mean it's an entity of the Missoula City Government?"
If someone from here within the great state of Montana can clarify this with more education and less insults than yourself, I'd welcome it. Just because Gary Marbutt wrote a book and you read it, doesn't make everything in it true and current up to this date and time. Facts, laws and regulations change. I'd be more than happy to contact Mountain Line Bus Services tomorrow and ask them myself on what grounds they base their restriction but I'm not going to. If that's their decision, I'll respect it and choose another form of transportation. It's that easy!!
Thank you and good-day!!
Last edited on Tue Nov 17th, 2009 07:41 am by 40s-and-wfan
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JBinMontana
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 17th, 2009 03:55 pm |
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My personal opinion is that on this matter, but I too feel that this BS Rule is unenforcable under Montana law. The rules of open/conceal carry are clearly spelled out in the MCA and this BS Rule is no differant than a hospital like KRH posting a "No Firearms" sign that is unenforcable under the law. They can ask you to leave, but no charges will be filed if Kalispell PD makes contact in regards to this. They can cite you for tresspass maybe, but no violation of the MCA.
This rule is just as everyone has stated, a BS Rule, and of course if the public reads it enough they will believe it to be a law.
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MT GUNNY
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 17th, 2009 05:03 pm |
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Lets say for instance that it is Private, Not a whole lot we can do but change there minds.
However I think we are fairly certain that it is Publicly Owned. My Thoughts on the Public part are as follows.
1. 45-8-351 Doesn't say anything about Vehicles, it only says Buildings and parks....
2. nor shall anything contained herein prohibit the legitimate transportation of firearms through any jurisdiction, whether in airports or otherwise.
3. no county, city, town, consolidated local government, or other government unit may prohibit , ownership, possession, transportation, use, or unconcealed carrying of any weapon, including a rifle, shotgun, handgun, or concealed handgun.
That law has holes all up in it, all in our favor. The only Problem we could possibly loose on is the fact you may have to pass through the Bus Depot Building, which would fall under the law.
So instead of arguing and Threatening, How about We as Responsible gun owners Do something about it! Augustin you seem to be the one most affected since you ride the bus, I would suggest you ask 40 s&w fan to write a Letter (He has done good at this in the past) and send it to all of us to sing it and hand deliver it to the Station headquarters in Missoula.
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JBinMontana
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 17th, 2009 05:48 pm |
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MT GUNNY I agree with you, how about we get 10 to 20 riders to OC and board a bus, in a public act of defiance to their BS Rule.
The most that can be done is:
#1 The driver can ask us all to leave
and if we don't.
#2 He/She can call local authority to have us escorted off, and they may issue tresspass citations. Then this would get court exposure, and we probably would get the attention from MSSA.
I wonder if anyone has contacted Gary Marbut about his opinion of this BS Rule.
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MT GUNNY
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 17th, 2009 06:15 pm |
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Is there a problem in Kalispell with this situation? what is the name of kalispells system of busses?
If so, the Letter thing is a very good Idea, it works! If it dont when tryed we wil go to the next step, Gary Marbut....
Last edited on Tue Nov 17th, 2009 06:16 pm by MT GUNNY
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MT GUNNY
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 17th, 2009 06:24 pm |
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Eagle Transit in Kalispell: Polices for Riding; I saw no mention of Firearms or weapons
http://flathead.mt.gov/eagle/documents/Riderpolicy.pdf
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IDAHO COWBOY
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Posted: Tue Nov 17th, 2009 07:24 pm |
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40s-and-wfan wrote: IDAHO COWBOY wrote:
1. Too many "shade tree rocking chair lawyers on forums", go to the source - Law Firm in Missoula, MSSA, and Montana Dept of Justice.
2. Never ask a Peace Officer current or has been or retired about the law, end up with personal opinions instead of facts.
3. At least working corrections in a building, you can stay warm in the winter versus being in a patrol car giving out speeding and parking tickets freezing in the sub zero temps ! Watch your six in the CQ.
1. Sounds about like the pot calling the kettle black if you ask me. Sir you've come on this thread several times and made quite a few feeble attempts at stirring the pot with controversy and everyone here (those that have been on here a while and know your reputation), has been ignoring you for the most part! At this point, I would like to respectfully request that from now on you keep your comments on-topic and refrain from adding in "personal opinion" where you think it needs to be interjected.
2. As for your comment about never asking a peace officer "...current or has been or retired" about the law due to the fact that you feel you'll be lied to or only told personal opinion; I would like to ask you at this point to not insult my past history as a law enforcement officer or that of my friends and acquaintances on this forum. There are many of us on here and I take this as not only an insult to my personal character and my excellent reputation as a Police Officer, but as an insult to all other LEO's on here as well! Please do not do that again!!
3. I believe you just threatened me in the third comment you made. The last one about watching my six. Your entire thread will be reported to the moderator and will hopefully be treated as the threat it was meant as!! Again, don't do that to me again.
If your comments don't pertain to those in the thread your responding to, please keep them to yourself! As for fact or fiction on this thread, I never once said my word on here was gospel. If you'll use your grade-school education to read the way my statement was worded, you'll see that it was posed as a question: "...does that mean it's an entity of the Missoula City Government?"
If someone from here within the great state of Montana can clarify this with more education and less insults than yourself, I'd welcome it. Just because Gary Marbutt wrote a book and you read it, doesn't make everything in it true and current up to this date and time. Facts, laws and regulations change. I'd be more than happy to contact Mountain Line Bus Services tomorrow and ask them myself on what grounds they base their restriction but I'm not going to. If that's their decision, I'll respect it and choose another form of transportation. It's that easy!!
Thank you and good-day!!
40's, I most probably personally know more Peace Officers than yourself both those being former, on duty, and retired. Those words are from them "never ask a Peace Officer about the law". As you know or should know, Peace Officers are not required to know all the laws that is the law and has been stated in many court cases; most Peace Officers are not 'gun fellars' or strong Second Amendment supporters (sad to say but it is a fact), etc.
40's CQ = Close Quarters. You now work in corrections "unarmed" in a close quarters environment. Watch your six, is an old saying for those of us that go into harm's way, for watching your back. If they have not told you corrections is a dangerous place to work. No threat, just a fact about the place where you work.
40's, The bus in question is public owned and operated with taxpayer dero. Tax paying Citizens have a right and duty to question anything and everything the government does and does not do and should never back down from any government source or individual, stay within the law not personal opinions, contest whatever is in question.
40's, see the other comments by others on this thread, they are own track and on the target.
40's, the only insults and attacks are from you to me. I made no insults or attacks to / on you or others. I still write off most comments of your's, I read on this forum, based on your's old post to me about your personal life of hard times, etc - you still have a lot of growing up to do along with being educated in the way's of life and learning the meaning of written words; working at an outdoor church camp along deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan for a few years would do you a lot of good.
Last edited on Tue Nov 17th, 2009 07:25 pm by IDAHO COWBOY
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Augustin
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 12:41 am |
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MT GUNNY wrote: 1. 45-8-351 Doesn't say anything about Vehicles, it only says Buildings and parks....
Right. Just buildings and parks. But the Mountain Line policy is, "No weapons of any kind are allowed on Mountain Line vehicles, at the Mountain Line Transfer Center or on any Mountain Line property."
AUGustin's reply:
So they are prohibiting firearms and weapons at the outside bus stops also !
MT GUNNY wrote:
The only Problem we could possibly loose on is the fact you may have to pass through the Bus Depot Building, which would fall under the law.
AUGustin's reply:
Right again. But they could (and should) change the policy regarding vehicles and bus stops, and simply post no guns signs on the doors to the buildings.
Taking your thoughts (down) to another level, they could claim that any bus stop with a weather shelter is a building.
MT GUNNY wrote: So instead of arguing and Threatening, How about We as Responsible gun owners Do something about it! Augustin you seem to be the one most affected since you ride the bus, I would suggest you ask 40 s&w fan to write a Letter (He has done good at this in the past) and send it to all of us to sing it and hand deliver it to the Station headquarters in Missoula.
AUGustin's reply:
Actually, this was the first time I've ever rode the bus. My truck broke down and I took the bus to a car rental agency. I plan to avoid the bus trip ordeal as much as possible.
Somebody could e-mail them instead of a letter and post their reply here for more discussion.Last edited on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 12:44 am by Augustin
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IDAHO COWBOY
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 02:39 am |
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Augustin wrote: MT GUNNY wrote: 1. 45-8-351 Doesn't say anything about Vehicles, it only says Buildings and parks....
Right. Just buildings and parks. But the Mountain Line policy is, "No weapons of any kind are allowed on Mountain Line vehicles, at the Mountain Line Transfer Center or on any Mountain Line property."
AUGustin's reply:
So they are prohibiting firearms and weapons at the outside bus stops also !
MT GUNNY wrote:
The only Problem we could possibly loose on is the fact you may have to pass through the Bus Depot Building, which would fall under the law.
AUGustin's reply:
Right again. But they could (and should) change the policy regarding vehicles and bus stops, and simply post no guns signs on the doors to the buildings.
Taking your thoughts (down) to another level, they could claim that any bus stop with a weather shelter is a building.
MT GUNNY wrote: So instead of arguing and Threatening, How about We as Responsible gun owners Do something about it! Augustin you seem to be the one most affected since you ride the bus, I would suggest you ask 40 s&w fan to write a Letter (He has done good at this in the past) and send it to all of us to sing it and hand deliver it to the Station headquarters in Missoula.
AUGustin's reply:
Actually, this was the first time I've ever rode the bus. My truck broke down and I took the bus to a car rental agency. I plan to avoid the bus trip ordeal as much as possible.
Somebody could e-mail them instead of a letter and post their reply here for more discussion.
Augustin:
you started the thread and ran into the problem, no need let them get by with their actions, we need to decide if we are Citizens or Subjects.
Citizens do not live in fear of government only Subjects live in fear of government.
e-mail or letter really makes no difference, just do it.
also as above:
In addition call and request a written response:
Mike Batista, Administrator, Montana Department
of Justice, Criminal Investigation Division (444-3874)
Contact the Law Firm in Missoula on the MSSA web site and MSSA Gary Marbut in Missoula
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40s-and-wfan
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 09:40 pm |
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So I've got a question: If this isn't government property, not a building or anything like that, even if it's just a business don't they have the right to prohibit firearms on their premisis? Don't they have the right to tell people that they don't want us to carry firearms on their buses? I mean, I'm just curious.
It doesn't seem much different than the Convenience Store I was asked to leave due to the fact that I was carrying a firearm. That policy got reversed as soon as I wrote the letter, but even still, any business (to my knowledge) has that right. Don't these guys have it as well?!
If they say no, don't employ their services. That's the way I look at it. If they don't want me in there when I'm wearing my nice, fancy pistol (thanks to MT GUNNY), then I'll take my business elsewhere!
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