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captainamerica
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Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2007 06:55 pm |
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I have to make a number of trips from KC, MO to Omaha due to a family member getting cancer treatments. Can someone give me something very definitive on whether we can open carry (in car and outside of car) while in the Omaha city limits?
At this point without hesitation I am planning on open carrying EVERYWHERE else between Omaha and the Missouri border b/c I'll be in my car the entire time unless something unforeseen happens along the roadside.
Also, if I'm in a town/municipality that doesn't restrict open carry am I allowed to carry inside businesses totally uninhibited or can they post no-OC or ask me to leave and/or call the cops?
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Mjolnir
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 04:19 am |
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When I lived in Omaha (6 years) it was extremly anti gun & if you even though about open or CCWing and got caught you were off to jail.
You were better off to drive drunk and get caught than carry a weapon in Omaha.
While technically lopen carry is legal, it's also highly unusal in Nebraska for the most part and expect a visit from the local LEO's if somebdy sees you OCing.
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captainamerica
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 10:26 pm |
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| Many thanks for the insights. All I care about is whether Omaha prohibits open carry on the local level. If they don't then 100 LEO's can respond if they want to b/c I'll still be within the law. I've tried municode.com and Section 20 doesn't appear to have any such prohibition.
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Mjolnir
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 11:12 pm |
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captainamerica wrote: Many thanks for the insights. All I care about is whether Omaha prohibits open carry on the local level. If they don't then 100 LEO's can respond if they want to b/c I'll still be within the law. I've tried municode.com and Section 20 doesn't appear to have any such prohibition. If you open carry in Omaha please report back the results.
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Mjolnir
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 01:39 am |
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Figured a phone call might come i handy as Capt America seems intent on going to jail.
Anyhoo, from a friend who is a Nebraska LEO and his jurisdiction butts up against Omaha & he works with Omaha PD. class="forumText"
In Omaha you have to have a permit to open carry and without this permit you will go to jail, plain and simple, no questions asked. He stated that Omaha is extremely anti handgun and ya better have a good lawyer ifin ya open carry in Omaha.
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captainamerica
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 03:48 pm |
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Sorry you misinterpreted my intent. As I said, is there anything definitive that I can open carry within the Omaha city limits or is it prohibited by city law?
Your first answer certainly was not definitive. Especially the part about "technically O.C. is legal but expect an LEO visit" with no specific comment as to the Omaha status of O.C.
My answer to that was it doesn't matter what the Omaha LEO's think IF it is not prohibited in Omaha (of which I still did not know).
Your second answer was equally not definitive.
Your third answer appears to be definitive regarding the LEO comment from his first hand experience that Omaha does in fact prohibit O.C. unless otherwise given permission (case-by-case).
And after a more thorough reading this weekend of the municode.com Omaha firearms regulations I'd say O.C. in that town IS prohibited and WILL get you a fast trip to jail.
So based on a full understanding of Omaha law I am NOT intent on going to jail.
Mjolnir wrote:
Figured a phone call might come i handy as Capt America seems intent on going to jail.
Anyhoo, from a friend who is a Nebraska LEO and his jurisdiction butts up against Omaha & he works with Omaha PD. class="forumText"
In Omaha you have to have a permit to open carry and without this permit you will go to jail, plain and simple, no questions asked. He stated that Omaha is extremely anti handgun and ya better have a good lawyer ifin ya open carry in Omaha.
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TheGoodLife
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 05:36 pm |
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Actually, Open Carry is allowed in Omaha, via permit, and is SHALL ISSUE, not subject to discretion other than past criminal history. If you want a shorter summary, scroll down, or keep reading if you want a more detailed explaination.
That said, having had the chance to talk with a number of OPD officers, I can say that a few don't actually know the laws that they themselves are suppose to enforce. (Keep in mind that most OPD officers are actually quite nice and rather reasonable, good, hardworking people, which is common in many civil service positions, perticularly the NSP, through NE as many believe in the common good and feel good serving the state and its citizens and are true patriots through and through. Few are just there cause its a job with decent pay and/or have been jaded.) But there are still those few who don't know the law well, or, just don't care enough to be sufficiently familar with it. For instance, one who has handled quite a few of the hangun registrations at the central post's front desk has affirmed, rather heatedly, that there is no open carry in omaha. He insisted there is no program that allows such, and said that I must be confused and talking about concealed carry and to talk to the NSP.
Additionally, if you seem innocent or innocuous to an officer(s) or are rather eloquent or just good at talking to cops, they may tend to let you get away with alot of stuff you technically shouldn't. For instance, any bb guns, air rifles or paintball guns are against the code to posess off of your own premisis, since they are grouped under sec. 20-195 along with rifles, shotguns and machine guns. Yet, I have often played paintball in a local arboretum and since my neighbors' properties is quite overrun with tree residing rodents, often have hunted squirril there with a .22 CO2 pellet rifle. Whenever the police have been called out, I have had a nice chat with them and then been left alone to do my thing. Of course that could simply be termed as dicretion, but ya know, still... strange for a PD that unilaterally 'hates all firearms'.
Actually, from what I have been told, it's only the cheif, a few select officers and the mayor that are so very outspoken in this direction, and this largely has to do with the huge gun crime rate (I'm from chicago originally and even I think it is bad). However, this violence is largely cordoned off to the black neighborhoods (Omaha is actually quite possibly the most segrigated city in the entire country). I have found that just walking from my car to a pawn shop with a shotgun in a locked case in one of these neighborhood got me some PD attention. Yet, on the other side of the city, in more affluent(white) neighborhoods, I've actually been to a small gunshow on someones front lawn that lasted over two days in a row with no contact.
Anyway, the Omaha municipal codes relating to firearms, while actually fairly few in number, does have provision for open carry. Firstly, let me say that while the NE constitution's very first section of the very first article guarantees the right to arms and preemts local contradiction, it is constitutional (as shown toward the latter part of the last century by a state supreme court decision) for firearms to be regulated, provided the regulations do not 'frustrate' the right to arms. Essentially, it means that the state and municipalities may place provisions to the law that must be complied with in order to carry/posess arms, however, these cannot place unreasonable restrictions on a law abiding citizen's ability to do so.
This is the precise reason that the CCW permit in NE and even Omaha's handgun registration process is 'shall issue'. If you are a law abiding citizen, and you comply with the law or apply for a given permit/certificate (which seems a bit like paying for your own rights), then you are legal/they HAVE to issue you the permit or cert.
Now, under 20-206(a) concealed carry in Omaha is illegal unless you have a NE CCW permit, this is because Omaha (and Lincoln) cannot restrict or refuse to honor it because the state constitution preemts the whole state for firearms, and it is now allowed by state law. Under 20-206(b) open carry of a concealable firearm (any kind) is illegal in Omaha unless you are, (1) on your own property or on your employers property, (2) a peace officer, (3) are a member of the armed forces, National Guard, or ROTC and are on duty or conducting training, (4) its unloaded in a locked case or unloaded in a securely wrapped package too big to conceal, (5) if your in a car and it is unloaded in a closed/locked case, or unloaded and in a securely wrapped package thats too big to be concealed on the person, or is locked up in a cargo or luggage compartment (not the glove box as this constitutes that it is readily accesible), (6) at a shooting rang or at a fed and city licensed dealer, (7) in a firearms training course such as hunter's ed or the program to get an sec 20-207 ID card, (8) persons waivered by the city from having the above mentioned ID card, (9) persons who have said ID card. Sec. 20-207 sets forth a training program (its run by the omaha chapter of the Safety Council, just like speeding ticket waiver classes) to obtain an ID card. The class is between 8-10 hours classroom, 2 hours range instruction, and if you sucessfully complete the program they SHALL ISSUE a the ID card which is valid for three years. Sec. 20-208 provides the things that must be on the ID and requires that it be issued upon sucessful completion (ie, shall issue). So basically:
Sec. 20-206: (a) no concealed carry (b) no open carry unless exempted...
Sec. 20-207: (a) must have training program (b) fee can be charged for program but must be reasonable (c) ID card shall be issued upon sucessful competion (d) 8-10 hours classroom, 2 hours practical range time (e) city can proscribe procedures for program (f) city has complete control over program and approval of applicants (g) applicants must fill out form (h) ID good for 3 years (i) may be renewed by paying fee if you are still applicable (havn't done anything illegal since last issued) (j)ID can be revoked for doing something illegal (k) waivers for completing armed forces or nationally recognized firearms training
Sec. 20-208: ID must be issued upon sucessful completion and card will have an ID number assigned to holder, full name, birth date, sex, address, expiration, physical description of holder and color photo
So essentially, you can only open carry a handgun (or other concealable), you cannot carry a long arm, and you must have what is basically an open carry permit. Now, I see nothing that would prevent a person that is not an omaha or nebraska resident from enrolling in the program, but I would be prepared to meet some hesitance from the safety council or the city. I wouldn't anticipate such hesitance, but I would be prepared for it just in case. Additionally, 12 hours and around $105 (which again seems a bit like paying for a constitutional right to me atleast), seems like a bit of a waste of time and money to me if your not actually from Omaha/ or you don't visit Omaha extremely often. But, I suppose that is neither here nore there since it would be you, not I, who would be making that judgement call. If you are still interested in open carry in Omaha and taking the class, then you can go here for more info: http://www.safenebraska.org/safe-working/concealed-carry-handgun-training.php
The linked page is the Safety Council's page of info for their CCW and Open Carry Permit classes. Unfortunately, only NE residents may apply for a CCW permit, however, again, I see no such restiction for the Open Carry Permit program as listed. In fact, I see an annotation that specifically says that you do not have to live in Omaha. Hope that if this isn't still useful to you, it was atleast interesting.
Last edited on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 05:45 pm by TheGoodLife
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ace1001
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 05:10 am |
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| On the CC permits, does Neb. reciprocate with other states? It doesn't with Kansas. Is that a problem with us or you? We need all the states to reciprocate. Ace
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deepdiver
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 06:50 am |
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According to handgunlaw.us, Nebraska does not recognize any other state's permit.
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ace1001
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 01:58 pm |
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| That's what my research said too. About 20 states recognize them, including Kansas. Pretty arrogant on the part of their unicameral don't you think? Ace
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TheGoodLife
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 08:41 pm |
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Yes, unfortunately Nebraska does not recognise other states CC permits. While quite a few other states do recognise NE's permit, NE does not recriprocate with even these states. From what I have heard, if NE were ever to start pursuing a bilateral agreement to allow the reciprocity of permits with another state, or even just to accept the authority of another states permit, it would almost certainly be with Iowa. Knowing NE, this could be a first step toward the pursuit of reciprosity with other states. However, this could just as easily end right there. The close relationship that NE has with IA in terms of commerce and interstate traffic (specifically Omaha and Council Buffs) is substantially higher than with any of its other neighbors. This could lead NE to pursue an agreement only with IA, if simply only to not have to bother with the legal hassle that carriers from IA working in NE and/or crossing into NE as part of their job, or vice-versa presents.
From what I understand having talked to my local Unicam rep. one of the perticular reasons that NE is hesistant to recognise other states CC permits is that since they have no control over the issuance of these permits, they have no guarantee as to the quality of training or the qualifications of any individual from another state. Put simply, NE knows the quality of its permit holders because it controls the program, since it doesn't control other states programs, it can't know with 100% sureity that allowing other states' permits wouldn't , in the words of one rep., turn the state in to one big wild west shootout.
Additionally, there is the ability of the NSP to use other states' CC permits as a tool for them to base their discretion on reguardless of whether or not the Unicam approves a bilateral agreement. However, the majority of troopers will not accept another state's permit as a reason for them to use their discretion to allow the perp to continue unhindered. Firstly, a few troopers may see carrying in their state and using the excuse that you have a permit from your state and/or that you didn't know that it wasn't good here/you couldn't CC here without a NE permit as BS because a person CCing should always know the applicable laws and be 100% in the right. Since then as a foreign CC permit holder, you are expected to know the laws which govern you, and you still continued to carry in NE reguardless, these few troopers may see your choice to carry here as a form of direct disreguard and disrespect to the sovereignty of the state... which would probably not work out well for you in his/her thoughts on how to use his/her discretion.
Second, since NE sees alot of interstate highway traffic on I-80 (remember it hooks up with I-29 just over the eastern border with I-35 only an hour east and then splits southwestward and northwestward in the panhandle, so interstate traffic is kinda funneled through NE more than one would expect) the troopers are use to seeing trafficking of various types through the state. The NSP is keenly aware of I-80s prominence in illegal shipments and continues to actively pursue this traffic. This issue also presented itself as a foreign CC issue well before NE had a CC permit and did not allow anyone to do so. The NSP and other organizations pursuing illegal traffic often encountered illegal CC during their stops, which were almost always involving foreign residents. All the troopers in this state are keenly aware of this. It would seem, to me atleast, that given all the troopers knowing this history could lead to their additional lack of consideration for foreign CC permits.
Put simply, no NE does not recognise other states permits. Yes, this is unfortunate, but no, I don't think that this is necessarily arrogant (even if they didn't have a couple of decent issues, I would still not see it as "arrogant" for a state to exercise its own soverignty as it sees fit). Personally, I think the entire system of individual bi-lateral agreements between states and/or individual states accepting other states' permits is far too complex and needs simplification. Even if every state accepted every other states' permit, the application of justice could still vary from state to state.
As much as I abhor the notion of states giving up any of their own soverignty, since this is about actions taken interstate and the states cant seem to come up with a concensus that lacks over-complexity and pitfalls for otherwise law abiding citizens, I would prefer that the fed gov would step in and come up with some rules for the reciprocity of CC permits between the states. Like drivers licensing for instance, the individual states still issue and train for their licensing as they see fit and pursuant to their own traffic laws, but the federal government ensures that any and every other state must honor any given state's license and vice-versa on a universal basis of acceptance within the country. I think this is what really needs to happen to ensure that good citizens who would in no other way be violating the law are protected from predation by other states' laws (and also to make CC permits stick on federal lands and in the District of Columbia). But that is my own humble opinion, and the effects of such federal regulation remains to be seen... and sorry for the XL post again... I'm kinda long winded.
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Jared
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 09:05 pm |
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TheGoodLife wrote: Yes, unfortunately Nebraska does not recognise other states CC permits. While quite a few other states do recognise NE's permit, NE does not recriprocate with even these states. From what I have heard, if NE were ever to start pursuing a bilateral agreement to allow the reciprocity of permits with another state, or even just to accept the authority of another states permit, it would almost certainly be with Iowa. Knowing NE, this could be a first step toward the pursuit of reciprosity with other states. However, this could just as easily end right there. The close relationship that NE has with IA in terms of commerce and interstate traffic (specifically Omaha and Council Buffs) is substantially higher than with any of its other neighbors. This could lead NE to pursue an agreement only with IA, if simply only to not have to bother with the legal hassle that carriers from IA working in NE and/or crossing into NE as part of their job, or vice-versa presents.
From what I understand having talked to my local Unicam rep. one of the perticular reasons that NE is hesistant to recognise other states CC permits is that since they have no control over the issuance of these permits, they have no guarantee as to the quality of training or the qualifications of any individual from another state. Put simply, NE knows the quality of its permit holders because it controls the program, since it doesn't control other states programs, it can't know with 100% sureity that allowing other states' permits wouldn't , in the words of one rep., turn the state in to one big wild west shootout.
Additionally, there is the ability of the NSP to use other states' CC permits as a tool for them to base their discretion on reguardless of whether or not the Unicam approves a bilateral agreement. However, the majority of troopers will not accept another state's permit as a reason for them to use their discretion to allow the perp to continue unhindered. Firstly, a few troopers may see carrying in their state and using the excuse that you have a permit from your state and/or that you didn't know that it wasn't good here/you couldn't CC here without a NE permit as BS because a person CCing should always know the applicable laws and be 100% in the right. Since then as a foreign CC permit holder, you are expected to know the laws which govern you, and you still continued to carry in NE reguardless, these few troopers may see your choice to carry here as a form of direct disreguard and disrespect to the sovereignty of the state... which would probably not work out well for you in his/her thoughts on how to use his/her discretion.
Second, since NE sees alot of interstate highway traffic on I-80 (remember it hooks up with I-29 just over the eastern border with I-35 only an hour east and then splits southwestward and northwestward in the panhandle, so interstate traffic is kinda funneled through NE more than one would expect) the troopers are use to seeing trafficking of various types through the state. The NSP is keenly aware of I-80s prominence in illegal shipments and continues to actively pursue this traffic. This issue also presented itself as a foreign CC issue well before NE had a CC permit and did not allow anyone to do so. The NSP and other organizations pursuing illegal traffic often encountered illegal CC during their stops, which were almost always involving foreign residents. All the troopers in this state are keenly aware of this. It would seem, to me atleast, that given all the troopers knowing this history could lead to their additional lack of consideration for foreign CC permits.
Put simply, no NE does not recognise other states permits. Yes, this is unfortunate, but no, I don't think that this is necessarily arrogant (even if they didn't have a couple of decent issues, I would still not see it as "arrogant" for a state to exercise its own soverignty as it sees fit). Personally, I think the entire system of individual bi-lateral agreements between states and/or individual states accepting other states' permits is far too complex and needs simplification. Even if every state accepted every other states' permit, the application of justice could still vary from state to state.
As much as I abhor the notion of states giving up any of their own soverignty, since this is about actions taken interstate and the states cant seem to come up with a concensus that lacks over-complexity and pitfalls for otherwise law abiding citizens, I would prefer that the fed gov would step in and come up with some rules for the reciprocity of CC permits between the states. Like drivers licensing for instance, the individual states still issue and train for their licensing as they see fit and pursuant to their own traffic laws, but the federal government ensures that any and every other state must honor any given state's license and vice-versa on a universal basis of acceptance within the country. I think this is what really needs to happen to ensure that good citizens who would in no other way be violating the law are protected from predation by other states' laws (and also to make CC permits stick on federal lands and in the District of Columbia). But that is my own humble opinion, and the effects of such federal regulation remains to be seen... and sorry for the XL post again... I'm kinda long winded.
Sorry, but a lot of this sounds like BS from the unicam to me. All these excuses about state soverignty and all that. I guesss a drivers license from other states shouldn't be valid in Nebraska since they may not know the traffic laws.
Nebraska has had crappy gun laws for a long time and all what was needed was a lawsuit to enforce the not-so-old state constitutional amendment related to RKBA as it's worded rather well. States have no soverignty, the constitution grants states powers rather liberally.
Nebraska has probably the worst shall-issue law out of anywhere. You must be a resident (similar laws have been deemed unconsitutional by federal courts in cases involving welfare and being state BAR certified). So where are the non-resident permits, they could then be aware of Nebraska's laws... this is why the bum in the unicam you were talking to makes no sense.
Nebraksa requires US Citizenship, violates Grahm v Richardson 1972 SCOTUS, the 14th amendment, most states that have had citizenship rules for firearms have been deemed unconstitutional (California, Colorado, Michigan, New Mexico, Utah etc.)
Any podunk hole in the wall can make CCW illegal, the only state that ever had a CCW law like this was Alaska, but no town banned it and that option was repealed from state law about 4 years later. New Mexico had their first law like that declared unconsitutional by the state supreme court around 2000.
Honestly, it sounds like you guys have a bunch of bums in the unicam up there. For a "conservative" state, you guys are pretty weak.
Oh, no one mentioned that in Omaha, even with the open carry permit, you need to register the handguns you plan to carry or you can be arrested for that. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened. So be sure to register the pistol you plan to carry.
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trucksurfer
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Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 07:11 pm |
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I would say it's not a bad idea to carry in Omaha, depending on which part of town you're visiting. I was visiting a girlfriend who went to College of St. Mary many years ago, and we were driving around a rougher part of town. While waiting for traffic so I could pull out of a parking lot I had what was most likely a near-carjacking experience. Two guys who had been minding their own business suddenly started moving toward the car at a quick pace with eyes fixed upon the vehicle. When I looked at them they were both looking at me intently. The second one seeing me notice them reached into his jacket.....for what, I do not know. I did not stay there. I went from 0 to 60 in seconds and turned two blocks away, only then did I notice a black and white on my tail. I pulled over and told the officer why I was speeding (he had me at 55 in a 35) he snarled that I should stay away from things that scare me and told me to go back to (small indistinct spot on the road town) and stay out of the city if I got scared.
As a former Nebraska resident and a current Iowa resident I can tell you that you had better unload and case it when you hit Hamburg. Open, uncased carry is ILLEGAL in Iowa. Possessiong of an unregistered handgun within the city of Omaha is technically illegal, however they would have to prove intent and that you were actually a resident, but it could cause you some trouble.
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ace1001
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Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 07:37 pm |
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Put simply, NE knows the quality of its permit holders because it controls the program, since it doesn't control other states programs, it can't know with 100% surety that allowing other states' permits wouldn't , in the words of one rep., turn the state in to one big wild west shootout.
This issue also presented itself as a foreign CC issue well before NE had a CC permit and did not allow anyone to do so. The NSP and other organizations pursuing illegal traffic often encountered illegal CC during their stops, which were almost always involving foreign residents.
Am I the only one who detects a little unconscious arrogance here as well? Ace
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ace1001
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Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 07:39 pm |
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| Maybe you should just build a fence on your borders to protect yourself from "foreigners". Ace
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jallen
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Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 06:12 am |
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I have more of a problem registering the firearm than I do the person. I understand the people's concern about competent carrying of handguns, although that is not what the constitution says. It doesn't grant the right to the competent, it grants it to all residents of Nebraska. I will not register my firearms with any government agency and I would discourage you from doing so either. If you have to register your firearm to be able to carry I say your God given rights are being infringed upon and you should challenge that law. I see the day when the government will be gathering up some if not all firearms and they will start with those which they have a voluntary record of by serial number and your picture id and address. I know some of these laws may make you "feel" safer, but they regulate only those who choose to obey the law, not the violent criminals who have chosen to break the law which is why the law was passed to begin with. I know it's confusing. Every time we let the government pass laws like those being discussed here we are giving up our freedom, and i would say our safety. Sure this "little law isn't too bad" and "that other one is inconvenient but makes me feel safer", but every one takes away a little bit of your rights and thats just not, well........right. Even if you don't carry or own a gun you should care about your liberty. I don't smoke but I disagree with the new law our state passed taking away those who choose to smoke, but thats another topic for another day.
God Bless
Last edited on Sat Mar 15th, 2008 04:18 pm by jallen
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jallen
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Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 06:21 am |
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Last edited on Sat Mar 15th, 2008 04:17 pm by jallen
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jallen
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Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 06:38 am |
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Last edited on Sat Mar 15th, 2008 04:16 pm by jallen
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jallen
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Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 06:39 am |
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Last edited on Sat Mar 15th, 2008 04:16 pm by jallen
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amaixner
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Posted: Mon Apr 14th, 2008 08:44 pm |
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trucksurfer wrote: Open, uncased carry is ILLEGAL in Iowa.
Small point here: a careful reading, and an unofficial State DPS opinion, show that open carry is not illegal in Iowa if you have an Iowa permit to carry. In no place is there anything even vaguely resembling a limitation on the manner of carry for a permit holder. Almost every Iowa LEO will arrest you for it though. The DPS refuses to issue an official opinion for fear of pissing the police and sheriffs off.
Last edited on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 08:45 pm by amaixner
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