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Jared
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 06:30 am |
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Loneviking wrote: Jared wrote: Loneviking wrote: As for the SO fees, the fingerprint costs (I'm told) go for maintenance of a database. The $60 fee is pretty standard for background checks for any license. So, although I might want things to be cheaper, it's pretty hard to see where the costs could be lowered.
You don't see where the costs could be lowered????
New Hampshire issues permits for $10.
Rhode Island issues permits for $40.
Pennsylvania issues permits for $20
Alabama issues permits for $10 (varies by county).
I do see where costs could be lowered. Fingerprinting for a CCW is a waist of time. They should be like Maine, only fingerprint if there is reason to be concerned about the identity of the applicant.
Not a very good comparison for two reasons:
One, there is no breakdown as to what the fees charged by other states go towards. Likely, the ones you are quoting don't require fingerprints. Here in Nevada, at least in Carson City, they are using the latest equipment which is completely digital with no ink. That equipment has to be paid for and is used for fingerprinting everybody. Tell me what the quoted rates cover and we'll compare.
Second, regional differences in cost. In parts of Pennsylvania and Alabama, I can buy a really nice home for $100,000. That wouldn't buy you much more than a trailer here in Nevada. So are you telling me that the costs for homes should be the same across the country? That's naive and economically wrong. Fees and costs are going to vary from one part of the country to another. If you want to do a comparison, compare Arizona/Idaho/Utah ($65 dollar fee) with the Nevada fees. Utah is a little bit cheaper but so is the cost of living in many parts of Utah. Carson City the fee went down this year to $100.25, so it's not that much higher than Utah.
LOL, you got to be kidding me. You are trying to compare home prices and then I'm naive.
What do you know about background checks? I've actually ran over 1,000 background checks on people with the federal government.
All of these programs are set up to make $$$$, it's just another tax.
A NICS check is a NICS check anywhere in the U.S. There is no cost of living involved in a background check. If they want to use livescan, that's their problem not yours. The blue fingerprint cards work fine and cost about $24 to process.
Stop sucking up to the Nevada Sheriff's. Ohhh, big deal, the fee in Carson City dropped a whole 5 dollars. Wasn't this the same sheriff that was dishonest in his application process about registering pistols after the recent law change. Not only was he confronted once, he was confronted twice before he actually "fixed" it, if he ever did.
CCW is a cash cow to agencies across america except for the ones I mentioned above as they are honest in the cost of processing your application. And people like you suck it up and make it easier for them to steal from you.
If you all want to do a good cost comparison like the so called economist I'm replying to. Look at MO when they passed CCW and they had the Hancock amendment to deal with, remember when some sheriff's that were issuing had to actually only charge what it costed them to process your application??? Remember, one county was only charging $17.50!!! Others were charging about $30 for the most part.
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Loneviking
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 01:50 pm |
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You just keep digging your way in deeper and deeper without even knowing it.
First, you post fees such as Alabama for $10, Penn. for $20, Rhode Island for $40---and then you tell me that it costs $24 just to process the old fashioned, blue ink fingerprint cards!! So, I guess Alabama, Penn. and New Hampshire aren't processing fingerprints?!
We aren't just talking about an NCIS check. That was done when I put my application in and the lady taking the app. put a note on my app. that there were no hits.
The BATF requires that the app. be sent over to the FBI and that the FBI do a background investigation before issuing the permit. The reason for this (expensive) requirement was so that those of us holding a CCW permit could buy handguns without having to pay $25 each time we did so. Nevada, as a state, agreed to do this and this is a big part of the cost.
The FBI charges $60 to do these checks. I know, as I have had two of these checks done, one for a Nevada Real Estate Broker Sales license and one for the Cal. Bar. Both times, a $60 charge for the FBI. Add on the $24 fingerprint processing fee that you admitted too and you're up to $84. That leaves $16 going to the CCSO, which is right in line with the low fees that you've posted from elsewhere.
So, as I've already said, don't quote fees to me without telling me what those fees entail. I'd bet Alabama and Penn. must not do much more than run an NCIS check. I'd guess you also have to pay a fee every time you purchase a handgun as they must not be BATF compliant.
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AnakinsKid
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 02:23 pm |
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Loneviking wrote: You just keep digging your way in deeper and deeper without even knowing it.
First, you post fees such as Alabama for $10, Penn. for $20, Rhode Island for $40---and then you tell me that it costs $24 just to process the old fashioned, blue ink fingerprint cards!! So, I guess Alabama, Penn. and New Hampshire aren't processing fingerprints?!
We aren't just talking about an NCIS check. That was done when I put my application in and the lady taking the app. put a note on my app. that there were no hits.
The BATF requires that the app. be sent over to the FBI and that the FBI do a background investigation before issuing the permit. The reason for this (expensive) requirement was so that those of us holding a CCW permit could buy handguns without having to pay $25 each time we did so. Nevada, as a state, agreed to do this and this is a big part of the cost.
The FBI charges $60 to do these checks. I know, as I have had two of these checks done, one for a Nevada Real Estate Broker Sales license and one for the Cal. Bar. Both times, a $60 charge for the FBI. Add on the $24 fingerprint processing fee that you admitted too and you're up to $84. That leaves $16 going to the CCSO, which is right in line with the low fees that you've posted from elsewhere.
So, as I've already said, don't quote fees to me without telling me what those fees entail. I'd bet Alabama and Penn. must not do much more than run an NCIS check. I'd guess you also have to pay a fee every time you purchase a handgun as they must not be BATF compliant.
You're assuming they're running a Point of Contact like Nevada is. Without a POC, dealers can call the free number. If we get rid of the POC, we can get rid of the extra BATFE requirements, and drop our fees so they're in line with those states mentioned.
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Jared
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 05:15 pm |
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AnakinsKid wrote: Loneviking wrote: You just keep digging your way in deeper and deeper without even knowing it.
First, you post fees such as Alabama for $10, Penn. for $20, Rhode Island for $40---and then you tell me that it costs $24 just to process the old fashioned, blue ink fingerprint cards!! So, I guess Alabama, Penn. and New Hampshire aren't processing fingerprints?!
We aren't just talking about an NCIS check. That was done when I put my application in and the lady taking the app. put a note on my app. that there were no hits.
The BATF requires that the app. be sent over to the FBI and that the FBI do a background investigation before issuing the permit. The reason for this (expensive) requirement was so that those of us holding a CCW permit could buy handguns without having to pay $25 each time we did so. Nevada, as a state, agreed to do this and this is a big part of the cost.
The FBI charges $60 to do these checks. I know, as I have had two of these checks done, one for a Nevada Real Estate Broker Sales license and one for the Cal. Bar. Both times, a $60 charge for the FBI. Add on the $24 fingerprint processing fee that you admitted too and you're up to $84. That leaves $16 going to the CCSO, which is right in line with the low fees that you've posted from elsewhere.
So, as I've already said, don't quote fees to me without telling me what those fees entail. I'd bet Alabama and Penn. must not do much more than run an NCIS check. I'd guess you also have to pay a fee every time you purchase a handgun as they must not be BATF compliant.
You're assuming they're running a Point of Contact like Nevada is. Without a POC, dealers can call the free number. If we get rid of the POC, we can get rid of the extra BATFE requirements, and drop our fees so they're in line with those states mentioned.
Loneviking, when you actually know what you are talking about, please feel free to come back and correct me. Like Anakinskid said, the POC is costing you all more money than you need to. The POC is probably in place to give a few political hacks a job.
And yes, PA, AL, NH, and RI do not require a set of prints by law.... you would know this if you actually read the laws.
RI permits issued under 11-47-11 require that a fingerprint be placed on the license, but a set of prints is not required. By practice, the Attorney General and most police chiefs that issue permits require a set of prints, but the cost is on them if they choose to.... and the cost is about $24 that they must pay for.
$25 when you buy a gun, your being screwed in Nevada. RI and AZ don't charge anything when you buy a gun... again, the POC is killing you but I don't buy guns in Nevada.... so you all can deal with your wonderful system I don't pay anything when I buy guns besides the retail cost.
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varminter22
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 03:19 am |
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And ...
The great state of Utah has research stating it cost them $31.44 to process a CCW application. I have a pdf copy of it, just as it was presented in testimony at the 2007 legislature. I can forward it to you, if you like.
When this subject came before the NV Assembly's Judiciary Committee in the form of AB-21 in 2007, no two sheriffs had cost estimates anywhere near another sheriff's estimates. Some sheriffs said the $60 fee was plenty. Primarily Clark County wanted the increase.
When the NSCA ballyhooed about how much it cost NV sheriffs to process CCW apps, one Nevada Assemblyman asked the Exec Dir of the NSCA, Frank Adams, (quasi quote) "So are our sheriffs less efficient than Utah sheriffs?" Mr Adams had no reply.
And the other posters are correct: NV has elected to be a "POC" state. (See http://www.stillwaterfirearms.org/Pages/NICS_Exemption_History.php for more info.) I see NO reason why NV cannot use the free "800" telephone number service in lieu of the $25 in state call - just as most other states.
The NSCA says the NV state database is updated slightly more often. Whoopee.
Fingerprint fees: I too believe it is ridiculous to charge a law abiding citizen $40.25 for prints. If you commit a crime, do they charge you for your prints?? On that alone, I should rest my case! But to go on, why do they need prints so often? Danged if I know. Hell, I've been printed MANY times - lets see now, 20 years of holding a Top Secret clearance in the Navy, obtaining a REALTOR license, obtaining a Gaming Work Card ... But the Feds require re fingerprinting in order for a state's CCW permit to qualify as a NICS exemption. So I have been reluctantly living with the print fees. With today's modern technology (scanners), it is hard to believe it cost $40.25 to process prints. (The NV fingerprint fee for CCW apps was $45 but was lowered to $40.25, presumably because of the new, modern "scanner" machines.)
NOW, lets ASSUME for a moment that it might cost a bit more than $60 to process an application - and/or $40 to process fingerprints. Just for a moment, consider this: It is a FACT that common, law abiding citizens with arms come to the aid of LEOs under attack by felons. Maybe not a lot, but it DOES happen - that you cannot argue. Now, is it not true that we value the lives of our LEOs? Of course we do.
SO, if a CCW permit holder saves just one LEO's life, what is wrong with the sheriffs office (ie the taxpayer) assuming a small portion of the cost of processing a CCW application??
And always remember, "CCW permits" is only a way of taxing a God given and Constitutionally guaranteed right. Yeah, I know some judges and some states will argue that. But how can you argue it? In Nevada (and most states), you can carry openly. And bad guys can, do, and will carry concealed. Laws and permits do not apply to them. In reality, what do "permits" accomplish??
Vermont has NEVER, since statehood, had a requirement for CCW permits. Any law abiding citizen of these United States can CCW there. Have you EVER repeat EVER heard of a problem in Vermont?? Don't you think the anti gun groups would have a field day with "problems" in Vermont??
And then there is that pesky case of Alaska. In the mid 1990s, Alaska adopted a "shall issue" CCW permit system. No problem. In 2003, Alaska realized the truth and since then any law abiding citizen of these United States can CCW there. Have you EVER repeat EVER heard of "problems" in Alaska?? Don't you think the anti gun groups would have a field day with "problems" in Alaska??
Are Nevadans (or any other states citizens) somehow less "worthy" than the citizens of (and visitors to) Vermont and Alaska??
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varminter22
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 11:49 am |
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Hmmm. I'm a bit surprised my post of Jul 17th, 2008 07:19 pm (above) hasn't drawn responses.
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Loneviking
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 03:27 pm |
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varminter22 wrote: Hmmm. I'm a bit surprised my post of Jul 17th, 2008 07:19 pm (above) hasn't drawn responses.
Not much left too say. Let's just go the way of Alaska and Vermont--then there are no fees.
BTW, if you need fingerprint cards, they are only $8 here in Carson. Why Washoe charges so much is beyond me.
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varminter22
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 04:15 pm |
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Thanks, Loneviking.
It has been said that the current makeup of our legislature is not "right" for adopting VT/AK style law. We have too many legislators like Bernie Anderson.
But I do believe it should be our ultimate goal.
As one assemblyman put it, "We must keep chipping away."
We must endeavor to elect worthy legislators and fight the good fight. It took scores to arrive at this juncture - and we probably cannot correct everything in one fell swoop.
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Loneviking
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 04:32 pm |
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varminter22 wrote: Thanks, Loneviking.
It has been said that the current makeup of our legislature is not "right" for adopting VT/AK style law. We have too many legislators like Bernie Anderson.
But I do believe it should be our ultimate goal.
As one assemblyman put it, "We must keep chipping away."
We must endeavor to elect worthy legislators and fight the good fight. It took scores to arrive at this juncture - and we probably cannot correct everything in one fell swoop.
I have to disagree that VT/AK style law should be our ultimate goal. There are, IMHO, real advantages to having a CCW system. When a shooting occurs, there are two questions to be answered:
Was the shooting justified?
Who is the shooter?
With a CCW, the cops know who you are and that you've been background checked. You aren't going to be sitting in jail for up to 72 hours waiting for a NCIS check to come back and show that there are no 'warrants and warrants' for your arrest. The CCW is also nice as (if one Sheriff would comply) previously you didn't have to pay the POC fee. It's an incentive to get the CCW permit.
The problem here in Nevada with the CCW process is this:
Non-uniform fees---why is it so much more to process an app. in Washoe than Carson City?
Non-uniform application--Nye county requiring gun color or muzzle length is an example.
Lack of an appeals process--if the county goes over the 120 day mark, how do you force them to give you an answer? How would you complain to the Sheriffs and Chiefs association when they don't even have a website that I can find?
If we make these corrections to the system, then we would have a good system that more folks could support. As it stands now, I would guess that there are quite a few folks wondering (as I did) if the whole rigamarole is worth bothering with!
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Felid`Maximus
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 08:09 pm |
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I think the AK system is absolutely what the goal should be.
In Alaska, you can still get a permit if you want for the purposes of reciprocity and background checks, but it not necessary just for carrying a gun. Thus, you get all the benefits of the permit system without any of the disadvantages. The system of voluntary permits needs to be set up to get maximum reciprocity.
Many people are not willing to jump through the hoops and taxes to get a ccw and a lot of people do not. It is stupid that it is a criminal act to conceal a firearm in the first place, and especially bad that it is a felony.
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varminter22
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 06:00 am |
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Loneviking wrote:
I have to disagree that VT/AK style law should be our ultimate goal. There are, IMHO, real advantages to having a CCW system. When a shooting occurs, there are two questions to be answered:
Was the shooting justified?
Who is the shooter?
With a CCW, the cops know who you are and that you've been background checked. You aren't going to be sitting in jail for up to 72 hours waiting for a NCIS check to come back and show that there are no 'warrants and warrants' for your arrest. The CCW is also nice as (if one Sheriff would comply) previously you didn't have to pay the POC fee. It's an incentive to get the CCW permit.
The problem here in Nevada with the CCW process is this:
Non-uniform fees---why is it so much more to process an app. in Washoe than Carson City?
Non-uniform application--Nye county requiring gun color or muzzle length is an example.
Lack of an appeals process--if the county goes over the 120 day mark, how do you force them to give you an answer? How would you complain to the Sheriffs and Chiefs association when they don't even have a website that I can find?
If we make these corrections to the system, then we would have a good system that more folks could support. As it stands now, I would guess that there are quite a few folks wondering (as I did) if the whole rigamarole is worth bothering with!
Well, our differences are slight, and perhaps irrelevant at this juncture because I don't think the makeup of our legislature is ripe to pursue the AK/VT style law issue, but I'll disagree in part.
The question "was the shooting justified?" will always be relevant - whether or not you have CCW permit.
Same for "who is the shooter?" It really matters NOT whether you have a permit - even today (OC is lawful.)
I could be wrong, but I don't think it takes very long at all to check for wants/warrants. I believe they do that now during a routine traffic stop, etc.
Non uniform fees?? I wasn't aware of any great disparity. The current total fee SHOULD be $100.25. That breaks down to a $60 fee for the sheriff's office and a $40.25 fee for fingerprints.
Non uniform application - I agree. Those sheriffs that have required serial numbers, barrel length, firearm color, etc ARE violating the NRS.
As for the latter two issues, I suspect things will get better. The NSCA has developed a standard CCW application form to be used by ALL NV sheriffs - supposed to go into effect soon. Per my conversation with my local sheriff today, I hope to have a copy of it soon.
As for VT/AK style law, I agree with Felid Maximus.
Vermont has NEVER, since statehood, had a law forbidding concealed carry; ANY law abiding citizen of these United States (not otherwise prohibited, ie felons, etc) may carry concealed without a permit.
Alaska adopted a "shall issue" permit system in the mid 1990s (as I recall). In 2003, Alaska adopted Vermont style law - ANYONE can carry concealed - and retained the "shall issue" permit system for those desiring a permit.
In view of the liberal anti gun media and groups, does this not beg the questions:
(1) "Have you EVER repeat EVER heard of "problems" in Vermont or Alaska?
(2) "IF repeat IF there were "problems" in Vermont or Alaska, don't you think the anti gun forces would play it up to the maximum extent possible? Refer to question (1) above.
(3) "Are Nevadans somehow less trustworthy or less deserving of true Second Amendment rights??
A very interesting issue, indeed. And in my opinion, worthy of further exploration and discussion.
Thanks, all.
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bobernet
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 07:15 am |
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| I agree that VT/AK should be our goal. I agree that it will never happen as long as Bernie Anderson is still in the legislature.
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Hopalong
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Posted: Sun Jul 27th, 2008 05:20 am |
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The way I solved the NV fiasco was to go to Utah and get their CCW permit. No listing or registering guns and no qualifying. Total cost was $130 and I had it in about 60 days. Its good in 30+ stated and for 5 years. Oj the 24 people in the class 11 were from NV.
Most of all is the benefit of not having to deal with that bunch of Cretans in downtown LV!
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varminter22
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Posted: Sun Jul 27th, 2008 05:38 am |
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Hopalong wrote: The way I solved the NV fiasco was to go to Utah and get their CCW permit. No listing or registering guns and no qualifying. Total cost was $130 and I had it in about 60 days. Its good in 30+ stated and for 5 years. Oj the 24 people in the class 11 were from NV.
Most of all is the benefit of not having to deal with that bunch of Cretans in downtown LV!
Good news, indeed.
BUT, if you are a Nevada resident, a Utah permit is NOT valid in Nevada.
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Vegassteve
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Posted: Sun Jul 27th, 2008 09:36 am |
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Hopalong wrote:
Most of all is the benefit of not having to deal with that bunch of Cretans in downtown LV!
OK well you have no clue. You can not carry conceal with that in NV if you are a NV resident. Second you dont have to go to downtown Las Vegas. Third I didnt know there were alot of folks from Crete living in town or why thats so bad.
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varminter22
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Posted: Sun Jul 27th, 2008 04:14 pm |
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Vegassteve wrote: Hopalong wrote:
Most of all is the benefit of not having to deal with that bunch of Cretans in downtown LV!
OK well you have no clue. You can not carry conceal with that in NV if you are a NV resident. Second you dont have to go to downtown Las Vegas. Third I didnt know there were alot of folks from Crete living in town or why thats so bad.
To be fair, I think Hop was referring to the LVMPD under the leadership of the anti gun Sheriff and other LEO hierarchy - and NOT the good people of Las Vegas.
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Hopalong
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Posted: Sun Jul 27th, 2008 06:03 pm |
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Sorry I misspelled the word "cretin" - It has nothing to do with Crete!
Here is the definition from webster:
1often offensive : one afflicted with cretinism
2: a stupid, vulgar, or insensitive person : clod, lout
Also just to make your day - here is a little note:
These are the states in the USA that Utah CCW and Florida CCW will allow you to carry: - Alabama
- Alaska
- Arizona
- Arkansas
- Colorado
- Delaware
- Florida
- Georgia
- Idaho
- Indiana
- Kentucky
- Louisiana
- Michigan
- Minnesota
- Mississippi
- Missouri
- Montana
- Nevada
- New Hampshire
- New Mexico
- North Carolina
- North Dakota
- Ohio
- Oklahoma
- Pennsylvania
- South Dakota
- Tennessee
- Texas
- Utah
- Vermont
- Virginia
- Washington
- West Virginia
- Wyoming
Message"Each week a few unelected bureaucrats should be taken out and hanged on a random basis, their positions left unfilled."
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Felid`Maximus
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Posted: Sun Jul 27th, 2008 06:15 pm |
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NRS 202.3688 Circumstances in which holder of permit issued by another state may carry concealed firearm in this State; holder of permit issued by another state subject to same restrictions and requirements as holder of permit issued in this State.
1. Except as otherwise provided in subsection 2, a person who possesses a permit to carry a concealed firearm that was issued by a state included in the list prepared pursuant to NRS 202.3689 may carry a concealed firearm in this State in accordance with the requirements set forth in NRS 202.3653 to 202.369, inclusive.
2. A person who possesses a permit to carry a concealed firearm that was issued by a state included in the list prepared pursuant to NRS 202.3689 may not carry a concealed firearm in this State if the person:
(a) Becomes a resident of this State; and
(b) Has not been issued a permit from the sheriff of the county in which he resides within 60 days after becoming a resident of this State.
3. A person who carries a concealed firearm pursuant to this section is subject to the same legal restrictions and requirements imposed upon a person who has been issued a permit by a sheriff in this State.
(Added to NRS by 2007, 3150)
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Vegassteve
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Posted: Sun Jul 27th, 2008 07:42 pm |
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Hopalong wrote: Sorry I misspelled the word "cretin" - It has nothing to do with Crete!
Also just to make your day - here is a little note:
I know all about the Utah permit. I have one. I also know it is not valid in NEV if I am a resident.
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varminter22
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Posted: Sun Jul 27th, 2008 07:43 pm |
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Hop, you're correct IF you're NOT a Nevada resident - BUT you're missing an important point that could land you (or anyone else reading this) in jail.
I highly recommend you read NRS 202.3688 (posted above, thanks to Felid.)
If you are a Nevada resident and carrying concealed with only a Utah permit, you are in violation and, in all likelihood, most cops will probably cite (or arrest) you.
It simply ain't worth carrying concealed in Nevada without a permit VALID in Nevada. Doing so may be punished as a felony.
NRS 202.350 Manufacture, importation, possession or use of dangerous weapon or silencer; carrying concealed weapon without permit; penalties; issuance of permit to carry concealed weapon; exceptions.
1. Except as otherwise provided in this section and NRS 202.355 and 202.3653 to 202.369, inclusive, a person within this State shall not:
(a) Manufacture or cause to be manufactured, or import into the State, or keep, offer or expose for sale, or give, lend or possess any knife which is made an integral part of a belt buckle or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a switchblade knife, blackjack, slungshot, billy, sand-club, sandbag or metal knuckles;
(b) Manufacture or cause to be manufactured, or import into the State, or keep, offer or expose for sale, or give, lend, possess or use a machine gun or a silencer, unless authorized by federal law;
(c) With the intent to inflict harm upon the person of another, possess or use a nunchaku or trefoil; or
(d) Carry concealed upon his person any:
(1) Explosive substance, other than ammunition or any components thereof;
(2) Dirk, dagger or machete;
(3) Pistol, revolver or other firearm, or other dangerous or deadly weapon; or
(4) Knife which is made an integral part of a belt buckle.
2. Except as otherwise provided in NRS 202.275 and 212.185, a person who violates any of the provisions of:
(a) Paragraph (a) or (c) or subparagraph (2) or (4) of paragraph (d) of subsection 1 is guilty:
(1) For the first offense, of a gross misdemeanor.
(2) For any subsequent offense, of a category D felony and shall be punished as provided in NRS 193.130.
(b) Paragraph (b) or subparagraph (1) or (3) of paragraph (d) of subsection 1 is guilty of a category C felony and shall be punished as provided in NRS 193.130.
I don't recall seeing where you have disclosed your locale/residency. IF you're not a Nevada resident, this is all moot.
Last edited on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 08:29 pm by varminter22
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