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Citizen
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 05:07 am |
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joeschmo wrote: Citizen wrote: GoldCoaster wrote: Of course he's a cop, that was starkly obvious from his first post.
If he is, that last little comment about "ten times worse" becomes intimidation.
I am not a cop, I just have common sense and know how to properly pick my battles. Like I said, fight it in the courts, not out on the streets. Have peaceful protests and demonstrations all you want - I am all for your right to open carry and think more people should do it.
Constantly asking if you are free to leave isn't going to do anything for you. Ask once, if they say you are not, you don't need to keep asking every 5 minutes. Once you are free to leave, they will let you know. Same thing goes for the siezure of your property. If you do not consent, tell them. If they then sieze your property, reaffirm that you do not consent one more time. After than, be quiet until you are released. If anything, doing those above things and being polite but firm with your rights will give you a better case.
Not to offend, (well maybe just a little) but your advice might be better received if it was not offered as criticism.
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Citizen
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 05:12 am |
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Phssthpok wrote: joeschmo wrote:
Constantly asking if you are free to leave isn't going to do anything for you. Ask once, if they say you are not, you don't need to keep asking every 5 minutes. Once you are free to leave, they will let you know. Same thing goes for the siezure of your property. If you do not consent, tell them. If they then sieze your property, reaffirm that you do not consent one more time. After than, be quiet until you are released. If anything, doing those above things and being polite but firm with your rights will give you a better case.
I disagree.
Silence begets consent.
If you do not consistently repeat your objections, and non-consent, then the argument could be made that your silence indicates a terminations of your objections, AKA: CONSENT.
Qui tacet consentire
I don't know how much weight that carries at law anymore. For sure, it didn't work for Thomas More in the 1500's. Convicted of high treason against Henry VIII, he lost his head.
Trial transcript wherein Sir Thomas quotes the maxim: http://tinyurl.com/nb7jpy
Last edited on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 05:17 am by Citizen
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timf343
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 05:20 am |
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joeschmo wrote: Alright, here is a tip - the next time you get stopped, don't tell the officer how to do his/her job. You have not been trained on law enforcement policies and procedures nor have you gone to law school. Even if you feel the are in the wrong, if you attempt in any way, shape, or form to tell them how to do thier job what what they "must do according to so and so law" it will make it ten times worse for you. If you wish, file a complaint afterwords. Trying to take it up with the officers on scene will not do any sort of good for you.
Also, since you seen to not like identifying yourself to law enforcement when stopped, I CANNOT WAIT until you get pulled over for speeding and refuse to provide your information, if you chose not to. I will enjoy reading your thread about that once you get out of CCDC or the LV City Jail.
Have fun with your little "crusade"
I did not resist them physically in any way. I did not resist arrest. I merely demanded to be let go. Demands (already in handcuffs) with no physical resistance whatsoever hardly amount to resisting arrest.
I don't need to go to law school to read and understand my basic civil rights. I was being peaceful, until the police, with guns drawn, forced me to stop my peaceful activity and they handcuffed me.
As for getting pulled over, as VegasSteve mentioned above, I will hand them my ID. Again, had you actually read the posts than just skimmed them for the juicy stuff, you'd have seen I only carry my ID while driving, as required by law. See, that's the recurring theme. I work within the bounds of the law. The police work outside it.
joeschmo wrote: I am not a cop, I just have common sense and know how to properly pick my battles. Like I said, fight it in the courts, not out on the streets. Have peaceful protests and demonstrations all you want - I am all for your right to open carry and think more people should do it.
Constantly asking if you are free to leave isn't going to do anything for you. Ask once, if they say you are not, you don't need to keep asking every 5 minutes. Once you are free to leave, they will let you know. Same thing goes for the siezure of your property. If you do not consent, tell them. If they then sieze your property, reaffirm that you do not consent one more time. After than, be quiet until you are released. If anything, doing those above things and being polite but firm with your rights will give you a better case.
Who are you then? You show up randomly and your first post protests the way I handled myself... Grow a pair and don't hide behind some anonymous pseudonym.
When your rights are violated, feel free to handle it however you like. I chose to repeat my demands throughout the encounter. This thread has been about 4th, 5th and 6th amendment rights, but repeating my rights, that's my 1st amendment right. I guess your position is probably I don't deserve those rights either.
Citizen wrote:
I also recommend being polite with police, to a certain degree anyway.
I was completely polite throughout most of the stop, "Please stop do not take my gun. I do not consent to having my property seized.", for example. I did not curse once, nor did I do anything else "rude". I merely asserted my rights and protested their continued violation thereof.
Last edited on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 08:06 am by timf343
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Citizen
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 06:10 am |
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timf343 wrote: Citizen wrote:
I also recommend being polite with police, to a certain degree anyway.
I was completely polite throughout most of the stop, "Please stop do not take my gun. I do not consent to having my property seized.", for example. I did not curse once, nor did I do anything else "rude". I merely asserted my rights and protested their continued violation thereof.
Good.
But, even if you had been rude, I wouldn't have objected. Its a tactical issue, not a legal one, as long as it doesn't get into disorderly conduct.
The whole "polite" thing, in my mind is really only for two reasons
1) To not provoke them into planting evidence or making a false arrest which would surely be lied about later.
2) Being polite makes you look good in court, the press, etc. "See. I'm the nice, meek, polite, AGGRIEVED one. Those mean, nasty cops, as you can hear on my recording right here, were the uncivilized thugs. See how far they depart from the image of Officer Friendly. See? Ooooo. I'm the victim. Look how they treat people. They might treat you or your wife that way if you don't send a message to all of them." Etc.
Aside from those, if your rights are being violated, and you think you can get away with it, howl like the rudest (but not disorderly) banshee. Why on Gods green earth anybody expects a free man to not object noisily is beyond me.*
Understand that I am not really advocating that. The consequences of a false arrest and conviction are too serious. Just the arrest record, even if not convicted. I am more distinguishing between a requirement to be polite, and self-determined tactical decision to be polite in order to obtain the tactical benefits that go along with it.
*What? Do they think all people are sheep? For Christ's sake, you'd think the OCd gun would be a clue that the detainee is not a sheep.Last edited on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 06:17 am by Citizen
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wayneco
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 08:03 am |
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I think it's safe to say that joeschmo is 5-0, he speaks authoritatively about the lack of dash cam equipment he drops BOLO casually, a LEO term of art and also speaks prejudicially of you out of the gate and with an arrogant tone.
All the marks of a typical LEO.
Oh, and he's made 3 whole posts on this board and is from LV.
If he's not with us, why is he here and what's caused him to come here?
Until this person joins our community and engages in a more positive tone and manner I'm going to assume he's a cop looking to cause trouble.
Problem is, with respect to lawful open carry in LV, cops seem to have a monopoly on the causing trouble part, that's precisely the problem we're trying to solve here, only to be met with more attitude like joeschmo's throwing off?
Not productive.Last edited on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 08:06 am by wayneco
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Merlin
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 11:40 am |
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Tim, you are my freakin' hero! I have long been an advocate of OC, but I didn't realize there was such a community of it here in Vegas.
I actually found this forum through NevadaShooters. Mostly a good bunch I think, although not all in alignment on this topic.
I too have been stopped on numerous occasions, and I have politely protested. After having read your detailed post, I have a better handle on what I could improve on. In fact, I stopped OC years ago, but I think it is time for a comeback! I have been wanting to get some use out of that Serpa holster I picked up.
I wonder, do you think dual-wielding my Super Shorty OC would be going to far? (stock photo, you can tell, 'cause that is the WRONG belt!) (and no, I haven't figured out the mechanics of actuating the pump-action while dual-wielding) 
Last edited on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 01:49 pm by Merlin
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Pace
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 03:50 pm |
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Tim,
Lets sit down and consider action. I think you handled yourself pretty well, and we need to get you a recorder next time. I carry one, and its quite good.
Here's a great video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
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timf343
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 02:10 pm |
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Citizens Review Board acknowledged receipt of complaint and will be investigating.
Attached Image (viewed 459 times):
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Pace
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 02:14 pm |
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pls send me the copy with the case # etc.
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BB62
State Researcher
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 03:15 pm |
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timf343,
In case you (and others) may have missed it, the NV chapter of the ACLU is willing to do a preliminary investigation of incidents such as yours:
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum66/27923.html
(YES, it's true!)
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Pace
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 03:21 pm |
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Actually Tim knows because his case is the one that got them interested  I forwarded it them with his transcript and information last week.
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rpyne
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 03:19 am |
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geoffw wrote: Im shocked....but thats expected when you are OCing on the strip.
Id probably just givem my damn ID and bluecard.
No, what is expected is to be treated like every other law abiding citizen and allowed to go about your business in peace unless you are in the act of committing a crime.
I do hope he had a voice recorder running through all of this.
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rpyne
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 04:03 am |
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VegasGeorge wrote: Their job is to protect me, and in my mind that responsibility comes first.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -- Benjamin Franklin
edit:spelling
Last edited on Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 04:03 am by rpyne
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suntzu
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 05:17 am |
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joeschmo wrote: Citizen wrote: GoldCoaster wrote: Of course he's a cop, that was starkly obvious from his first post.
If he is, that last little comment about "ten times worse" becomes intimidation.
I am not a cop, I just have common sense and know how to properly pick my battles. Like I said, fight it in the courts, not out on the streets. Have peaceful protests and demonstrations all you want - I am all for your right to open carry and think more people should do it.
Constantly asking if you are free to leave isn't going to do anything for you. Ask once, if they say you are not, you don't need to keep asking every 5 minutes. Once you are free to leave, they will let you know. Same thing goes for the siezure of your property. If you do not consent, tell them. If they then sieze your property, reaffirm that you do not consent one more time. After than, be quiet until you are released. If anything, doing those above things and being polite but firm with your rights will give you a better case.
One--they are not just the OPs rights--they are your rights as well. He and many others here simply choose to exercise their Constitutionally protected rights in a way t hat law enforcement does not like, or agree with and therefore the majority of them want to bully and intimidate in order to get it to stop.
Two--we should not have to put up with intimidation, and especially not from a "law enforcement officer" who is supposed to actually know the laws they are supposed to enforce---unique concept I know.
Three, the OP did not have to answer any questions other than those necessary to identify himself once a LEO had cause to believe he was, was about to or had already committed a crime, considering that Nevada has a stop and ID statute.
Four, it is VERY appropriate to ask the reason for the stop, whether or not we are being detained, whether or not we are free to leave--this does a very important thing--it brings into play the 4th Amendment for purposes of filing a complaint with the Justice Department for violation of our rights, as well as opening the door to possible litigation against the officer and the department involved in order to get them to stop their unlawful and abusive practices.
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suntzu
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 05:21 am |
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calmp9 wrote: bobernet wrote: Metro has never been burned on this particular issue. Everyone usually lets it drop. It will likely only take one successful lawsuit before they start to change their tune.
I know for a fact that this sort of stuff is not Metro "policy" any more than driving 100mph+ with no lights and sirens in town is "policy."
Getting the attention of the local brass on this issue will likely lead to some changes.
Good luck, Tim. Let us know what we can do to help.
And for everyone else, a minor word of encouragement - there are good Metro cops out there who believe largely as we do, and are working to educate and change perceptions from within.
Bob
Agree 100% on this. There are good cops there. It's not fair to make a blanket assumption. I can understand why they stop someone open carrying. They don't know the person from Adam, but it's the way the stop is conducted that's important. This time, it doesn't look like it was legal.
I'll stand you two cops up--one "good" one "bad"--you tell me which is which.
As for how you "understand" them stopping someone OC'ing--you might, but I don't. It does not matter if they don't them from Adam--if the person OC'ing is minding their own business, then the cops should do the same--the world would just be so much better off if people did mind their own business a little more instead of sticking their noses into what everyone else is doing, thinking or saying.
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Pace
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 05:25 am |
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It is not metro policy, but it is trained in the police academy and MWAG situations are taught.
The police officers need to be trained to understand OC is not a bad thing. The police officers are generally not at fault, because they are taught from the academy and their COs how to act.
(Why its time for a new sheriff)
Last edited on Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 05:26 am by Pace
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suntzu
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 05:31 am |
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VegasGeorge wrote: Their job is to protect me, and in my mind that responsibility comes first.
Their job is not to "protect" you--their job is to enforce the laws. They are not private security.
Second, they cannot protect you--they are by their very nature reactionary--meaning they show up only after the bullets have started flying, hardly ever do they actually stop something before it starts...and I don't want them any other way. I would absolutely never want to live in a society where the police were actively stopping and searching everyone on the street, or where you had to drive through checkpoints every few miles or show "your papers" every time a LEO thought you needed to simply because he said to do so.
Third--I would never depend on a LEO to protect me or to fight for me. I don't put my safety into the hands of anyone who does not have a direct stake in whether or not I go home tonight. That means I trust my God and my family to watch my back, and that is it.
The police are FAR too quick to step on the rights of the people and think they can get away with it. I would like to see a great number of those who violate our rights thrown into prison and let them be on the other end for a change.
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Pace
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 05:36 am |
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Blah! Police Officers job are to "protect and serve" in my opinion. Law Enforcement, point blank has the job of protecting the public, and that's often in almost every department's oath!
Many, many officers understand that, and some don't 
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suntzu
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 05:37 am |
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Pace wrote: It is not metro policy, but it is trained in the police academy and MWAG situations are taught.
The police officers need to be trained to understand OC is not a bad thing. The police officers are generally not at fault, because they are taught from the academy and their COs how to act.
(Why its time for a new sheriff)
It does not matter why they do it--the fact remains-they do it, and they should lose their jobs when they mistreat the people--as well as their certifications--permanently. When a few start losing their jobs over it--the rest will take notice and get the message. Abuse should absolutely never be tolerated, and they should be immediately held accountable--and if they harass a citizen and mistreat that person--they should be chargeable under the law and thrown into jail.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse--it isn't for us and it should not be for them.
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Pace
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 05:40 am |
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my point wasnt otherwise, but the real issue isn't the officers, its the department and training. As long as there is people in charge who are anti-gun, this is how they will respond.
The political machine of the strip decides each year who should be sheriff and its always one of the good ole boys, always someone who will bow to the needs of the casinos. Our current sheriff scored a failing grade on the NRA quiz, because he supports more gun restrictions and so on.
We need better training period
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