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suntzu
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 05:41 am |
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Pace wrote: Blah! Police Officers job are to "protect and serve" in my opinion. Law Enforcement, point blank has the job of protecting the public, and that's often in almost every department's oath!
Many, many officers understand that, and some don't 
If you believe that, then you are naive. They did a great job "protecting the public" at Virginia Tech didn't they.... How about this recent shooting in D.C at the holocaust museum--they did a wonderful job there too...
They cannot protect you--they are not private security. They have absolutely no legal requirement to protect the individual citizen. Their job is to enforce the laws, nothing more.
as for it "being in their oath"--they can put anything into an oath--it is meaningless in the long run. They more than proved that with the OPs experience...
But the issue here is the OP and what the police did to him and how they mistreated him. If the way they treated him is what it means for them to "protect" me--thank you no, I'll continue to depend on my God, my family and myself--I can at least trust them to not shoot the first person they see with a gun regardless of who he is.
Last edited on Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 05:47 am by suntzu
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suntzu
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 05:51 am |
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Pace wrote: my point wasnt otherwise, but the real issue isn't the officers, its the department and training. As long as there is people in charge who are anti-gun, this is how they will respond.
The political machine of the strip decides each year who should be sheriff and its always one of the good ole boys, always someone who will bow to the needs of the casinos. Our current sheriff scored a failing grade on the NRA quiz, because he supports more gun restrictions and so on.
We need better training period
not just better training--but examples need to be made of the officers who mistreat the people...they should be fired, have their certifications revoked and if they assaulted a person during the course of their mistreatment--should also be arrested and prosecuted very publicly.
to me it does not matter why they do it--the fact is that they do it and it needs to stop and major lawsuits is one sure way to get it to stop...bankrupt a city because of the conduct of its police--and the city might get the message.
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rpyne
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 06:02 am |
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suntzu wrote: to me it does not matter why they do it--the fact is that they do it and it needs to stop and major lawsuits is one sure way to get it to stop...bankrupt a city because of the conduct of its police--and the city might get the message.
Amen!
It is sad to see how far things have deteriorated. Two of my brothers lived in Las Vegas back in the early 1970s and back then, LVPD was one of the best. They didn't have the discrimination or other problems that many other police department had at the time. They even turned the derogatory generalizations to their favor. I remember that many of the LVPD cars had P.I.G. in big letters on their doors (Pride, Integrity, Guts). They lived by that and the took the role of "Peace Officer" seriously. They honestly believed that their purpose was to "serve and protect".
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JoeSparky
Centurion Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 07:09 am |
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good on ya timf343. It is a terrible shame that SOME LEO's must be FORCED to recognize our rights!
Truth in the phrase about Power.... you all know the one....
"Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts, ABSOLUTELY!"
Edited to add the last two sentences!
Last edited on Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 07:11 am by JoeSparky
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Nevada Bill
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 11:26 pm |
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wewd wrote: Your story floored me. I had no idea the Gestapo is operating in the State of Nevada. Are you sure they didn't make you click your heels and salute before they let you go? Sounds like there needs to be some massive OC get-togethers on the strip in the near future. I wanna see what these jack-boots do with several dozen armed citizens walking down the sidewalk. I would definitely drive out for that one. I'll be the guy with the red triangle armband.
A OC get together on the strip sounds like a good way to make a statement. These cops need to learn some self control. LOL on the armband.
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Jonesy
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 10:43 pm |
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Ttimf,
Hang in there and keep going sir. Here in Virginia I can open carry all I want and I have never been stopped by the police, thanks to others who OCed before me doing exactly like you are doing. They got stopped and hassled just like you did, lawsuits followed, police were educated and now we mostly enjoy our OC rights with no problems. I can walk by police all day OC and they never say a word, as it should be.
Now the Nevada shooters site is filled with uninformed people, especially osiruscyn telling you the stop was legal and had probable cause. That is laughable, the stop if it happened as you described had no probable cause, nor did the subsequent detention and siezure of your property. Plenty of Supreme Court precedent indicates stop and detention were illegal, those people saying you are misinformed made me laugh and get angry at the same time.
The moderator on there hassling you is also, badly misinformed about the law, very sad being a mod. I really wanted to sign up to that site to support you and post some, But I decided better of that, I live in Virginia.
I almost wish I lived out there, I would go with you on your next strip trip. You really need to get at least a voice recording of any further encounters. Good luck with your efforts, remember to stay safe (although it seems you are handling that well).
Last edited on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 10:50 pm by Jonesy
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jpa
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 06:53 am |
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I seem to remember reading about a guy who regularly OC's in Norfolk, keeps getting stopped and the city keeps settling his lawsuits out of court, paying all his bills. Now we just need to get someone to do the same thing here and Tim seems pretty willing. 
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Pace
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 02:25 pm |
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Yeah, until one rookie officer gets scarred and shoots first... I'd rather see Tim alive and well, educate the officers and the department. We need Tim to help in the fight and frankly right now the LVMPD is nervous and a lot of new officers coming in.
Change the department from the TOP DOWN, and then we can stop worrying as much.
Last edited on Mon Jul 6th, 2009 02:25 pm by Pace
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suntzu
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 02:53 pm |
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Pace wrote: Yeah, until one rookie officer gets scarred and shoots first... I'd rather see Tim alive and well, educate the officers and the department. We need Tim to help in the fight and frankly right now the LVMPD is nervous and a lot of new officers coming in.
Change the department from the TOP DOWN, and then we can stop worrying as much.
If they are that afraid--let them find other work....They do not have to work in law enforcement--it is a job they choose to do, and if they are that afraid--they should find another job.
And the only way to change the department from the top down--is to fire a few of them and make it plain to those who remain what is and is not allowed and actually MAKE them learn the laws they are supposed to enforce...
Last edited on Mon Jul 6th, 2009 02:56 pm by suntzu
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DON`T TREAD ON ME
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 02:58 pm |
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Pace wrote: Yeah, until one rookie officer gets scarred and shoots first... I'd rather see Tim alive and well, educate the officers and the department.
Pace, your posts suggest you are familar with LVMPD training (or lack of ) as it seems. Does it alarm you that a law abiding citizen should fear for his life in this circumstance? what mindset would they have to aquire from LVMPD to kill a law abiding citizen?
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Pace
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 03:23 pm |
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It alarms me, but doesn't surprise me.
Its not just LVMPD; how many stories do you hear about police shootings where the conclusion is, "He had a gun, so we fired." Uh, what?
No one ever asks in the media, "So what?" Even if the gun was illegal, what right does a police officer have to shoot you because you are in mere possession of an illegal item. More so, if the item is legal. The fact is that whenever there is a police shooting, you always hear "he went for the gun, it looked like a sudden movement... i thought he had a gun."
About a month ago in NYC, a police officer was killed because two other officers saw that he had a gun. Imagine if he wasn't a police officer, would anyone have asked why he was shot? The discussion in NYC right now is if he identified himself as an officer!!! As if that somehow matters, that if he didnt say those words he deserved to be shot and killed.
Do a google of Las Vegas Metro Shooting. Here is from last week alone:
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/jul/01/metro-officer-shoots-man-northwest-valley/
An unarmed citizen was fighting with the officers and they shot him? They chased him down,when trying to arrest him, they shot him? Suddenly resisting arrest is an automatic death penalty? They will say he was a sexual predator, that he was a danger, that we don't appreciate the police...and so on. The fact is that everyone is INNOCENT until proven guilty... perhaps he was a mentally ill person without his meds. Perhaps he was the person who committed those crimes and so on.
I've taught police defensive tactics, I've never heard of this method of shooting while someone resists arrest.
Last edited on Mon Jul 6th, 2009 03:26 pm by Pace
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wrightme
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:54 pm |
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I would class the police shootings as a strawman. These are not particularly relevant to tim's circumstances.
The "he had a gun" or "thought he had a gun" shootings are already adversarial encounters, and are not "man on street with holstered firearm.
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Pace
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 05:16 pm |
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Oh, nevermind. Feel free to disagree with everything I say, I'm sure your always going to be right
Last edited on Mon Jul 6th, 2009 05:17 pm by Pace
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wrightme
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 06:13 pm |
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Pace wrote: Oh, nevermind. Feel free to disagree with everything I say, I'm sure your always going to be right
It is not that I have some need to disagree with everything you say.
I disagree specifically with the argument you presented in this case. There was nothing in tim's narrative that indicated some chance of an accidental police shooting as you present. Do you see where such would be relevant in tim's case? If so, how?
In other words, WHY do you feel that accidental police shootings have relevancy to this topic?
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Pace
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 06:14 pm |
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I was originally making a point that Tim is too important to be shot accidently by a police officer. And frankly, you seem to be right most of the time
According to Tim, the police officers actually pointed their weapons at him, if I remember right from the transcript. Not a chance of some new officer, first time seeing someone else with a gun perhaps pulling the trigger? Where there are officers who are shooting themselves in the foot because of poor training, there are more officers who shoot before asking.
Then again, I spent years working in NYC where police drew on me more than once.
Last edited on Mon Jul 6th, 2009 06:20 pm by Pace
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suntzu
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 08:25 pm |
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Pace wrote: I was originally making a point that Tim is too important to be shot accidently by a police officer. And frankly, you seem to be right most of the time
According to Tim, the police officers actually pointed their weapons at him, if I remember right from the transcript. Not a chance of some new officer, first time seeing someone else with a gun perhaps pulling the trigger? Where there are officers who are shooting themselves in the foot because of poor training, there are more officers who shoot before asking.
Then again, I spent years working in NYC where police drew on me more than once.
And all of this is exactly why police officers need to start losing their jobs when they harass and unlawfully detain a citizen--one unlawful detention, or one harassment stop should be enough to get them fired from their jobs----when the police start getting fired, the rest might stand up and go "hmmmm, harassing and illegally detaining people isn't the best course of action after all..."
AND cities need to start losing lots of money in lawsuits to the point that the worst offending cities and towns literally go bankrupt because of it....once that happens, the people might actually stand up and tell the police NO MORE....
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cato
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 10:52 pm |
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There is SCOTUS case law stating that pointing a firearm at a "suspect" is a "use of force" which needs to be justified (otherwise it is excessive). I don't know the case name. Anyone know what it is called?
artwork by oleg volk:
Attached Image (viewed 351 times):
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Pace
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 11:36 pm |
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I like that ad. I've been on both sides of the fence, and I like the point that POLICE are CIVILIAN ENFORCERS. They are not the military, and they are required to follow CIVILIAN LAW.
Thanks for that!
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suntzu
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Posted: Tue Jul 7th, 2009 12:37 am |
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cato wrote: There is SCOTUS case law stating that pointing a firearm at a "suspect" is a "use of force" which needs to be justified (otherwise it is excessive). I don't know the case name. Anyone know what it is called?
artwork by oleg volk:
There are several cases mentioned here http://www.policeone.com/legal/articles/1664029-Use-of-force-law-and-its-impact-on-muzzle-position/
including :Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989)
Tallman v. Elizabethtown Police Department 167 Fed.Appx. 459 (6th Cir. 2006)
Robinson v. Solano County, 278 F.3d 1007 (2002) (en banc)
McDonald v. Haskins, 966 F.2d 292 (1992),
Holland ex rel. Overdorff v. Harrington, 268 F.3d 1179 (2001), cert. denied, 535 U.S. 1056 (2002)
and several other cases....some of them are absolutely outrageous as to the conduct of the "officers involved"...BUT I think the one you are talking about is Holland ex rel. Overdorff v. Harrington, 268 F.3d 1179 (2001), cert. denied, 535 U.S. 1056 (2002)
Maybe I am wrong. I have not had time to read them yet, but skimming over Holland ex rel....it seems to be the one you are referring to--but I am not quite sure.
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Citizen
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Posted: Tue Jul 7th, 2009 03:41 am |
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suntzu wrote: http://www.policeone.com/legal/articles/1664029-Use-of-force-law-and-its-impact-on-muzzle-position/
Funny how in reading that whole article, I saw liability mentioned as something to be avoided, the main concern being a negligent discharge, and rights as something to be balanced.
Nothing about negligently shooting another human being, the suffering of the victim or his loved ones. Nothing about how an innocent person is likely to feel with a gun pointed at him.
Last edited on Tue Jul 7th, 2009 03:42 am by Citizen
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