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Gordie
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 03:00 am |
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irish wrote: My point is that it does not have the well established reputation for being a reliable duty/self defense pistol and there are several polymer pistols that do i.e. Glock 19/17 or S&W M&P.
And what was being said about the Glock 30 years ago? Many of the same arguments were made against Glock then. I especially remember the doubt about how a "plastic pistol" could ever hold up to serious use. I think that it is safe to say that those doubts have been put to rest.
Comparing one friend you have who shoots an XD in competition does not equate to the real world and needing to defend one's life or that of another. A skilled surgeon may be able to perform heart surgery with a butter knife... Looking at the bigger picture and a much larger sampling of what's out in the field would be much more helpful. If you're going to be punching holes in paper and using it as a range gun than the XD would be an OK choice.
This "one friend" is actually one of about a dozen. It is not a case of just one person choosing this weapon, it is a case of me just giving one example. In fact, the last couple of years XDs have overtaken Glocks in numbers at our matches. Many people leave their Glocks at home and bring the XDs instead.
Although Glocks are fine weapons, they are not without their problems. To many people they have all the comfort of holding a 2X4. I have often said to people, "If you pick up a Glock and it doesn't feel like a block, buy it, otherwise go for something else. The feel of a Glock is the only reason that I won't buy one. The XD is much more comfortable for me.
Something to consider also is the fact that Glocks have no manual safeties. This could be one of the reasons why Glock owners have such a high rate of self inflicted gun shot wounds. Any obstruction that catches the trigger will fire the gun (think Plaxico Burress), this can be especially dangerous while trying to holster your weapon while wearing bulky clothing or a full duty belt.
However, if you're buying this for serious social purposes than it is not nearly the equal of the Glock or an M&P.
Personal opinion on your part.
All that being said if you like the XD and feel that it's the equal to some of the other proven, dependable options with great track records amongst real world shooters and not recreational paper punchers have at it.
I guess this sums up your whole attitude. It would appear that anyone who isn't into the whole tacticool Rambo warrior crowd isn't a real shooter. Military or Police training does not a firearms expert make, most of these guys use what is issued to them and nothing else. I've known SWAT members who couldn't figure out how to safe any weapon different from the one they were issued.
Who and what do they say it is?
The XD and XDM get great reviews from gun writers and competitive shooters both, due to their reliability and ergonomics.
You aren't answering any of my questions and I don't think this merits a serious discussion if you throw out unsubstantiated claims and don't present any facts.
XDs, or for that matter even needed them?
Do you know of anyone who has had trouble finding someone who would work on an XD? (No one that I know who has an XD has had a need for spare parts and has had no trouble getting what work they wanted done.)
Can you show where there has been a side by side, objective comparison?
I wonder how a gun that was introduced 3 years after the XD could have more history to back it up.
Can you provide examples of XD and/or XDM failures?
I worked with a retired seal who said he couldn't stand Glocks and would only use one if it was the only thing around. He much preferred Sig type pistols, which he was more familiar with. Sometimes I think preference comes more from familiarity than actual performance.
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Pace
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 03:16 am |
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I think Gordie is pretty damn smart, good reply.
To add something, just because you are used to something, doesn't mean its better. Not trying something new does seem stupid if only because you are used to the old.
NYPD until 1993 never used semi-autos, because they felt "that they were unreliable" No joke. They were last major department to adopt them.
NYPD until 1998/99 didnt use hollow points, and over 55% of all officer related friendly fire-injuries due to shootings were because of over penetration. NYPD only knew one type of bullet.
The point is that the "best deparment in the nation" (grrr) had one way of doing things and waited until the last because htey wanted to be ultra conservative, even though everyone knew it was the wrong way?
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irish
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 05:41 am |
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And what was being said about the Glock 30 years ago? Many of the same arguments were made against Glock then. I especially remember the doubt about how a "plastic pistol" could ever hold up to serious use. I think that it is safe to say that those doubts have been put to rest.
The first Glock pistols were not imported until January of 1986 which is only 23 years if I'm using my basic math skills right, referenced here: http://books.google.com/books?id=CVfH8nI2IuUC&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=when+was+the+first+glock+made&source=bl&ots=CyOju7_6f7&sig=GciF_qGrNT9_NlfW7NJCarxar1Q&hl=en&ei=9i5MSquOA8Ontgfd4oy5AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9
This "one friend" is actually one of about a dozen. It is not a case of just one person choosing this weapon, it is a case of me just giving one example. In fact, the last couple of years XDs have overtaken Glocks in numbers at our matches. Many people leave their Glocks at home and bring the XDs instead.
Although Glocks are fine weapons, they are not without their problems. To many people they have all the comfort of holding a 2X4. I have often said to people, "If you pick up a Glock and it doesn't feel like a block, buy it, otherwise go for something else. The feel of a Glock is the only reason that I won't buy one. The XD is much more comfortable for me.
Something to consider also is the fact that Glocks have no manual safeties. This could be one of the reasons why Glock owners have such a high rate of self inflicted gun shot wounds. Any obstruction that catches the trigger will fire the gun (think Plaxico Burress), this can be especially dangerous while trying to holster your weapon while wearing bulky clothing or a full duty belt.
I'm curious to know what matches and what level? The only thing you are still referencing is gun games and competition, not gun fighting which is a huge difference. Have you ever done any serious training at any of the top tier schools with an XD/XDM? Bring one to a Vickers Tactical, Aim Fast - Hit Fast or Magpul Dynamics class and put it through the paces. No one does for the simple fact that it is not a reliable weapon for self defense.
There are only 2 Glocks I recommended, the G19 and G17, the rest I would not stand behind so readily. I'm happy to hear the XD is more comfortable for you, my contention has nothing to do with comfort and everything to do with reliability and ease of maintenace & modification if the user feels it's necessary.
What are the specific numbers for the high rate of self inflicted gun shot wound in comparison to other self defense pistols? Please provide a source. Plaxico Burress, a person up on felony weapon charges, is not what I would call the poster boy for firearms safety. Trying to conceal a loaded firearm in a pair of sweatpants is moronic to say the least. I also recommended the S&W M&P which can be purchased with a manual thumb safety similar to a 1911, I own both.
Personal opinion on your part.
My personal opinion along with many widely recognized professionals whose words carry alot more weight than either you or I on this subject, as previously stated: When I'm referencing professionals I mean the likes of Larry Vickers, Travis Haley, Todd Green, Chris Costa etc. These people train or are training other people just about everyday and are serious users i.e. Delta Force, Vickers Tactical, USMC Force Recon, Magpul Dynamics etc. You can look them up and verify their credentials and see what they're using. Are your needs the same as theirs? Probably not, but the need for your weapon to go bang every time is and they are a good reference for what works.
I guess this sums up your whole attitude. It would appear that anyone who isn't into the whole tacticool Rambo warrior crowd isn't a real shooter. Military or Police training does not a firearms expert make, most of these guys use what is issued to them and nothing else. I've known SWAT members who couldn't figure out how to safe any weapon different from the one they were issued.
It has nothing to do with tacti-cool Rambo warrior anything. I'm presenting facts with documented, verifiable proof as to what I'm saying. I'm not saying LEO/.Mil training makes one a firearms expert, however, the people whose opinions I mentioned ARE considered to be some of the world's foremost firearms experts.
The XD and XDM get great reviews from gun writers and competitive shooters both, due to their reliability and ergonomics.
I will reiterate with my earlier post: I'm sure there are positive reviews, I won't say they were paid off but I would ask what the person's background is, what is their affiliation, does the manufacturer buy advertising with their magazine, etc. You reference people saying they like the XD/XDM in the gun community, who are they and in what gun community are you referring to?
Do you know of anyone who has had trouble finding someone who would work on an XD? (No one that I know who has an XD has had a need for spare parts and has had no trouble getting what work they wanted done.)
Can you show where there has been a side by side, objective comparison?
I wonder how a gun that was introduced 3 years after the XD could have more history to back it up.
Can you provide examples of XD and/or XDM failures?
I worked with a retired seal who said he couldn't stand Glocks and would only use one if it was the only thing around. He much preferred Sig type pistols, which he was more familiar with. Sometimes I think preference comes more from familiarity than actual performance.
Was the work they had done on an XD performed by a certified armorer? If they haven't needed any spare parts than they are not shooting the gun enough as every gun needs preventative maintenance i.e. springs and internals that wear.
I have listed several acknowledged gun professionals that have given their objective opinions but I honestly don't feel like looking for an official objective comparison at this point in time. I'm also not willing to dig up a bunch of well documented facts concerning the failure rates of these guns. I'm curious to know the name of the retired SEAL you work with and why he'd offer up this opinion. The people I've listed are familiar with every fighting weapon platform there is and their opinion has nothing to do with anything other than an unbiased, objective opinion.
Now take the time to address the other things I mentioned:
One of the biggest issues with the XD is the high bore axis which makes follow up shots more difficult than either a Glock or M&P. I also do not like the fact the gun is manufactured in Croatia for my own reasons, try getting work done on the pistol or buying spare parts. Ambi mag releases, especially button releases (as opposed to paddle releases), are more prone to accidental bumps, etc.
Also, the fact that you need to be putting pressure on the grip safety to get the slide to move can range anywhere from a small annoyance to a serious problem (performing certain one-handed manipulations, for example).
They are very difficult to have work done on them BY A CERTIFIED ARMORER and almost impossible to find spare parts.
PACE - Try going back and answering some of my questions that are pertinent to you and your situation. They are very valid and you acknowledge that and yet you don't answer them in an honest assessment of what you're doing and the impact it has. My posts have nothing to do with being comfortable with the old and not trying the new, they're based on gun fighting and not games.
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Felid`Maximus
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 06:43 am |
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Pace wrote:
NYPD until 1998/99 didnt use hollow points, and over 55% of all officer related friendly fire-injuries due to shootings were because of over penetration. NYPD only knew one type of bullet.
By over-penetration do you mean through a bad guy or through a wall? Dry wall is penetrated so easily that I don't think a hollowpoint would be stopped by it. Where did you read that statistic?Last edited on Sun Jul 5th, 2009 08:01 am by Felid`Maximus
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inNV
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 06:48 am |
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If an XD can do this, then maybe you have something...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygcfp40RTKs
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paintsnow
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Posted: Sun Jul 5th, 2009 02:48 am |
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Pace and Irish, If you two want to get together and shoot and compare the XDM with whatever else you have, i would love to come along. And if that doesnt happen, ill take you up on the offer Irish, like i said, im willing to try other guns out.
As i mentioned earlier, im only 18, so i cant really buy ammo on my own. If you pick some up, ill pay for it though. Please just let me know how much before hand. While shooting the other guns would be cool, i probably shouldnt spend money on it.
Pace, what caliber is your XDM?
Shoot me a PM if the offer to shoot is still good!
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Gordie
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 02:03 am |
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inNV wrote: If an XD can do this, then maybe you have something...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygcfp40RTKs
The danger of a Glock trigger isn't from jarring, it's if something gets inside the trigger guard, like a finger, piece of gear from a duty belt, wad of clothing, etc. A 1911 should be able to do the same thing as should any other quality made firearm.
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Gordie
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Posted: Tue Jul 7th, 2009 05:26 am |
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irish wrote:
The first Glock pistols were not imported until January of 1986 which is only 23 years if I'm using my basic math skills right, referenced here: http://books.google.com/books?id=CVfH8nI2IuUC&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=when+was+the+first+glock+made&source=bl&ots=CyOju7_6f7&sig=GciF_qGrNT9_NlfW7NJCarxar1Q&hl=en&ei=9i5MSquOA8Ontgfd4oy5AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9
OK, you got me. The Glock wasn't around 30 years ago. It was developed in 1980, and first went into service in 1982. If you look just a few lines up from your reference line, you will see that the Glock was being sought for importation in 1982. This means that the discussions and debates would have been going on then, 27 to 29 years ago. So, any guesses on what was being said about the "plastic pistol" back then? I remember a few things and most of what was being said by most of the "experts" was less than favorable.
I'm curious to know what matches and what level?
Steel and pins mostly, there are usually anywhere from 50 to 100 shooters at our matches, ranging from beginning novices (C class) to experts (Master class). By the way, not all competition is just punching paper.
The only thing you are still referencing is gun games and competition, not gun fighting which is a huge difference.
From what I've been told, the biggest difference is that in competition, there is no return fire. I know a firearms instructor who has done firearms instruction for the FBI, and he highly recommends competition to hone skills. He says that except for return fire, competition duplicates almost all of the same stresses found in a gunfight; adrenaline, need for speed in action, and at the same time need for accuracy. The last I heard it, it is illegal to practice actual gunfights (even if it wasn't, I don't think that I would).
Have you ever done any serious training at any of the top tier schools
No, my life and finances don't allow it, although, several of my friends have attended a couple of different schools. Of course, I don't know what you consider "top tier" schools, but Front Site and Thunder Ranch do have pretty good reputations.
Bring one to a Vickers Tactical, Aim Fast - Hit Fast or Magpul Dynamics class and put it through the paces.
I've never heard of any of these schools, but I would be willing to take you up on your invitation, just let me know when. Sounds like fun.
There are only 2 Glocks I recommended, the G19 and G17, the rest I would not stand behind so readily.
Interesting. Why not?
My personal opinion along with many widely recognized professionals whose words carry alot more weight than either you or I on this subject, as previously stated: When I'm referencing professionals I mean the likes of Larry Vickers, Travis Haley, Todd Green, Chris Costa etc.
Considering that as far as I know, we don't know each other, that is a pretty pretentious statement.
Speak for yourself, since I don't recall ever hearing of any of these guys except Costa.
These people train or are training other people just about everyday and are serious users i.e. Delta Force, Vickers Tactical, USMC Force Recon, Magpul Dynamics etc.
I'm sorry if I'm not as impressed by these people as you are. I'm sure that they are as good as you say, but I'm also sure that most of their training involves tactics, not equipment specs. People tend to prefer what is familiar, people in government service tend to become very familiar with what is issued to them. Have these people done actual side by side objective tests, or are they just sticking by what they know?
On a side note, my wife's ex was force recon, I am definitely not impressed if he is an example of what they accept.
Are your needs the same as theirs? Probably not, but the need for your weapon to go bang every time is and they are a good reference for what works.
Once again, can you show where XDs have been shown to be unreliable? The XDs that I've seen have never failed to go bang. Unless they can show where XDs have failed, they may be a reliable source for something that works, but may not be an authority for what is unreliable.
I will reiterate with my earlier post: I'm sure there are positive reviews, I won't say they were paid off but I would ask what the person's background is, what is their affiliation, does the manufacturer buy advertising with their magazine, etc.
At least one magazine, Gun Tests, accepts no advertising from firearms manufacturers. They tend to like the XD.
You reference people saying they like the XD/XDM in the gun community, who are they and in what gun community are you referring to?
I refer to people who shoot their XDs regularly. Thousands of rounds a year. They report no failures that are not directly ammo related. I belong to a club with over 500 members, our members represent everyone from factory sponsored shooters to people who have only seen the range once during a CCW class, they range from people who cannot even field strip their guns without help to fully certified gun smiths. I dare say that this is a better representation of the "gun community" than the handful of "serious operators" that you mention.
Was the work they had done on an XD performed by a certified armorer?
Certified by who?
Since I don't recall hearing who did the work I can't tell you what their certifications are or are not.
If they are not a certified armorer, this would tend to refute your claim that they are difficult to work on, if they are, then this would tend to refute your claim that it is hard to find someone to work on them.
If they haven't needed any spare parts than they are not shooting the gun enough as every gun needs preventative maintenance i.e. springs and internals that wear.
Or maybe they just haven't exceeded the wear limits on the gun yet. Unless you are like Todd Jarrett, setting a record, it does tend to take a significant amount of time and energy to exceed the round count required to wear out a quality firearm. Sometimes it even takes many years.
I have listed several acknowledged gun professionals that have given their objective opinions but I honestly don't feel like looking for an official objective comparison at this point in time.
Convenient.
What are the specific numbers for the high rate of self inflicted gun shot wound in comparison to other self defense pistols? Please provide a source.
I'm presenting facts with documented, verifiable proof as to what I'm saying.
I'm also not willing to dig up a bunch of well documented facts concerning the failure rates of these guns.
Funny, you demand specific numbers, and sources, yet provide none of your own, only opinion. You claim to provide documented facts, you fail to do so. You then refuse to dig up the well documented facts that you claim to have already provided.
I can't provide specific numbers for AD/ND with the Glock, but I can give some examples. Since you don't like the example of Plaxico, how about these "professionals"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj4yUpR1PB0
http://www.newstimes.com/ci_12748954?source=most_emailed
http://lapdblog.typepad.com/lapd_blog/2008/11/accidental-discharge-with-a-firearm.html
Equipment interference
SEALs in Vietnam. I can't remember if he was a Commander or a Lt. Commander, but the last time I saw him, this past Sat., he was packing a 1911 OC style.
The people I've listed are familiar with every fighting weapon platform there is and their opinion has nothing to do with anything other than an unbiased, objective opinion.
I'm sorry, but I have to call BS on this statement. I mean seriously, every fighting platform there is, please.
One of the biggest issues with the XD is the high bore axis which makes follow up shots more difficult than either a Glock or M&P.
My 5' tall 109 lb. wife didn't seem to have any problem with this. I realize that not everyone can measure up to her level of physical prowess, but I believe that most people can get close enough to do the job.
Also, the fact that you need to be putting pressure on the grip safety to get the slide to move can range anywhere from a small annoyance to a serious problem (performing certain one-handed manipulations, for example).
Can you explain what moves this would include? If you can't grip the gun tight enough to depress the grip safety, you will most likely not be able to control the gun anyway. The amount of force needed to depress the grip safety is so minuscule as to be almost unnoticeable.
They are very difficult to have work done on them BY A CERTIFIED ARMORER and almost impossible to find spare parts.
So, do you only take your car to the dealer for oil changes? After all, you wouldn't want anyone but a factory certified technician to do any maintenance on it.
If it don't break, don't fix it.
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Pace
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Posted: Tue Jul 7th, 2009 05:51 am |
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I just took my XDm out again to the range. I did point shooting only at 20 yards.
19 rounds, all in tight group around the bullz-eye.
Another 19 rounds, all in a right group around the bullz-eye.
I've been googling and I haven't seen a BAD review of the XDm anywhere, can someone show me an "expert" who says its bad and why?
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Gordie
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Posted: Tue Jul 7th, 2009 01:41 pm |
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Pace wrote: I just took my XDm out again to the range. I did point shooting only at 20 yards.
19 rounds, all in tight group around the bullz-eye.
Another 19 rounds, all in a right group around the bullz-eye.
I've been googling and I haven't seen a BAD review of the XDm anywhere, can someone show me an "expert" who says its bad and why?
No, because there aren't any, at least none that are published. Some people have extreme brand loyalty and nothing else is as good as their brand. Personally I like 1911s, Para Ordnance are my favorite. Why? Because I just happen to like them.
Good for you on the XD. I'm glad that you are satisfied. The ones that I've played with have all been very nice. I still like my 1911s though.
Last edited on Tue Jul 7th, 2009 01:43 pm by Gordie
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Pace
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Posted: Tue Jul 7th, 2009 03:06 pm |
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a 1911 is my next purchase, I've shot with them many times, just dont own one.
I really want a Wather PPS. 
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irish
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Posted: Thu Jul 9th, 2009 06:08 pm |
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Gordie - Just got back from a weeks vacation. I'll only reference 2 other threads that I deem pertinent as I have a ton of work to catch up on. Feel free to read through them and agree or disagree with some very well respected opinions on the subject matter, it makes no difference to me.
Either way I hope people who read this will gain some insight or knowledge and will go from there. Take care.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14204
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30221
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Pace
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Posted: Thu Jul 9th, 2009 06:16 pm |
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One thing I've noticed is that people who dont like XDs have never used them.
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paintsnow
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Posted: Thu Jul 9th, 2009 07:06 pm |
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Thread went slightly off topic...but that ok.
Is anyone willing to let me try out an XDm? or if you feel i should try out any other guns, then im open to that too. Ill be nice to you babies
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