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LiveFreeOrDie
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Posted: Sun Dec 21st, 2008 09:37 pm |
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Open carried with my girlfriend to Carraba's. Had a nice meal and fair service. The food was ok...probably should've stuck with Chicken Parm or something classic.
Went to the mall afterwards, but I left my coat on the whole time so I was concealed.
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LibertyInNH
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Posted: Mon Dec 22nd, 2008 02:12 am |
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I carry essentially ALL THE TIME in the Strafford County (Rochester/Barrington/Dover) and Portsmouth/Newington area. When I hike or am outdoors, open is the way to go. In public I usually CC. But, I have made a quick stop into AutoZone and even carried openly when waiting for some automotive work to be done on the wife's van. Sparked a nice conversation with the lady at the desk and other customers. Then, in walk two officers. They look at me, I say "Hi, how are you guys?" they respond "Good, thanks." Then they asked the lady at the counter if the cruiser is all set (to pick up)! They did not seem to bat an eye.
That being said, sometimes I am trying to assert my rights including open carry at Chili's and other restaurants, but most of the time no one knows, which is probably the best route ;-)
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WendelBrue
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Posted: Mon Dec 22nd, 2008 04:37 am |
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I have a question for the common OCers. Do you OC or CC, if you're actually expecting something to happen, or feel the likelihood is higher. For the always argued point, that if someone is breaking the law with a gun, then you're going to be a prime target if they notice you have one, as opposed to CCing and then drawing on the last moment with them unsuspecting.
I'm all for the right to OC, and I think plenty of times, almost more for convenience sake, I would in the future, (ie not wanting to quickly throw on a jacket or concealing shirt to go run into the store or something. Maybe even go for a walk around the neighborhood.) I've been talking to friends and family in NH about working with the PD and starting an OC civilian neighborhood watch/walk program in their area.
Also, I wanted to see if anyone in here wanted to replicate some of the other states and do a cookout/picnic type deal at a public park, once it gets warmer. March time frame. We seem to be spread out across the state a good deal, so maybe pick a common city park thats "close" to us all, and try to recruit some friends and aquaintances from our homes and ranges. Could be a nice way to make a statement and meet some people with similar interests.
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LiveFreeOrDie
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Posted: Mon Dec 22nd, 2008 01:10 pm |
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WendelBrue wrote: I have a question for the common OCers. Do you OC or CC, if you're actually expecting something to happen, or feel the likelihood is higher. For the always argued point, that if someone is breaking the law with a gun, then you're going to be a prime target if they notice you have one, as opposed to CCing and then drawing on the last moment with them unsuspecting.
I don't know how to tell if something is going to happen or not. I OC 90% of the time. If someone is breaking the law with a gun, they won't be OCing. They'll be CCing (which is why OC has historically been less regulated than CC). I don't worry about being suspected of a crime.
I'm all for the right to OC, and I think plenty of times, almost more for convenience sake, I would in the future, (ie not wanting to quickly throw on a jacket or concealing shirt to go run into the store or something. Maybe even go for a walk around the neighborhood.) I've been talking to friends and family in NH about working with the PD and starting an OC civilian neighborhood watch/walk program in their area.
That's an interesting idea. Let me know what they say.
Also, I wanted to see if anyone in here wanted to replicate some of the other states and do a cookout/picnic type deal at a public park, once it gets warmer. March time frame. We seem to be spread out across the state a good deal, so maybe pick a common city park thats "close" to us all, and try to recruit some friends and aquaintances from our homes and ranges. Could be a nice way to make a statement and meet some people with similar interests.
I'm game! There have been OC litter pickups, but not any OC picnics that I'm aware of. That would be fun. We just need to get enough people here on the NH board so that we can start organizing things like that. The best way to do that is to keep posting when you OC like I do so that others can see that people are doing it.
Last edited on Mon Dec 22nd, 2008 01:11 pm by LiveFreeOrDie
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WendelBrue
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Posted: Mon Dec 22nd, 2008 01:35 pm |
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For the OCing and being a prime target, I didn't mean as a suspect of the police. I mean if you're in a bank, or a convenient store, and a guy walks in with a gun, and he plans on eliminating obstacles and threats... and gun standing with a loaf of bread in his hands and a gun on his side (you) is going to be the first person he shoots. As opposed to CCing, and you look like a horrified victim until he's not ready or turned around or whatever, and then you draw and get him by surprise.
Like I said, I'm not at all opposed to OCing, but I think it several instances, you're painting a giant red X on your chest, both for the criminal who sees you as a threat, and for the cop who only got "man pointing gun at people at convenient store", and when they show up they see you with a gun. Which, if you've drawn and are arresting the criminal... you look like a guy who's pointing a gun at people.
Granted in that case it doesn't matter if you were CCing or OCing. But OCing can force you to be a part of the situation, as opposed to CCing gives you the right, and the opportunity to be part of the situation, if you so choose to be. If I were at the scene of an ongoing violent crime, then yes, with my experience and training, I would intervene. Which is not necessarily the best thing to do for someone like.. my mom, who CCs, but for the worst case scenario. To put it flatly, not everyone is smart enough and cool headed enough that they should carry a gun, and a very small percentage of those people, are smart enough, cool headed enough, and trained enough to make it wise to OC everywhere, even though, legally, it's still there right to do so. Sadly, people can't be prohibited from doing things because they're too stupid.
Okay, so, to help get people involved. I'm going to post my OC experience for today. I walked all around town, in and out of stores and shops, talking to people, who didn't seem to mind that I was holding an M-4. I really think peoples views on OCing in Baghdad has improved, and I'm going to talk to my platoon about having a picnic in the area. :-)
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LiveFreeOrDie
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Posted: Mon Dec 22nd, 2008 01:50 pm |
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WendelBrue wrote: For the OCing and being a prime target, I didn't mean as a suspect of the police. I mean if you're in a bank, or a convenient store, and a guy walks in with a gun, and he plans on eliminating obstacles and threats... and gun standing with a loaf of bread in his hands and a gun on his side (you) is going to be the first person he shoots. As opposed to CCing, and you look like a horrified victim until he's not ready or turned around or whatever, and then you draw and get him by surprise.
There are pluses and minuses to OCing or CCing, but I've never heard of an OCer being targeted. Criminals want easy targets so they usually just steer clear when they see an OCer. I have heard of that happening.
OCing = better education and better deterrence
CCeing = better element of surprise
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NewHampshireNative
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Posted: Mon Dec 22nd, 2008 03:37 pm |
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To put it flatly, not everyone is smart enough and cool headed enough that they should carry a gun, and a very small percentage of those people, are smart enough, cool headed enough, and trained enough to make it wise to OC everywhere, even though, legally, it's still there right to do so. Sadly, people can't be prohibited from doing things because they're too stupid.
Every Living person has the right to Self protection. As for the OC picnic some towns and city have codes that keep guns out of city/town parks. Like my city the city of Claremont,NH has this code under parks and Rec.
Sec. 12-67. Disorderly conduct.
(a) No person shall disturb the peace and good order in any park by fighting, quarreling or wrangling with loud voice or shouts, threatening by violence to the person or property of others, or engaging in riotous clamor or tumult.
(b) No person shall congregate with others in a public place and refuse to comply with a lawful order of the police or the director to disperse or leave the park.
(c) No person, except peace officers or other law enforcement officers, shall have or carry any pistol, switchblade, hunting knife, slingshot, dagger, metal knuckles or other dangerous weapons concealed on or about his person while in the park.
(d) No person shall use obscene, profane or abusive language while in the park.
(e) No person shall loiter in or near toilet buildings or parking areas.
(Ord. No. 171, § 10(A), 9-14-77)
Chapter 12 parks and Recreation, Division 3 Regulations..
Now it was put on the books in 77 and has not been updated but it's still a city code. But by NH law as of 2003 when RSA 159:26 went into law it killed all city/town codes having to do with guns and said only the state can set laws about firearms.
TITLE XII
PUBLIC SAFETY AND WELFARE
CHAPTER 159
PISTOLS AND REVOLVERS
State Jurisdiction
Section 159:26
159:26 Firearms and Ammunition; Authority of the State. –
I. To the extent consistent with federal law, the state of New Hampshire shall have authority and jurisdiction over the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Except as otherwise specifically provided by statute, no ordinance or regulation of a political subdivision may regulate the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting a political subdivision's right to adopt zoning ordinances for the purpose of regulating firearms businesses in the same manner as other businesses or to take any action allowed under RSA 207:59.
II. Upon the effective date of this section, all municipal ordinances and regulations not authorized under paragraph I relative to the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearm components, ammunition, or firearms supplies shall be null and void.
Source. 2003, 283:2, eff. July 18, 2003.
But here's the thing I can not get a ruling on the matter. I have called the city police department and they said talk with the city about it. I called the NH Attorney General about their understanding on the law and if they read it the way i do. I called 3 times and no one will talk to me they keep sending me to voice mail. So if there is a law on the books in your town/city and you carry in a park they may still arrest you.
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WendelBrue
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Posted: Tue Dec 23rd, 2008 10:57 am |
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| I have talked with lawers about the interpretation of that law. And the response I got from all of them, is the city has no authority to prohibit firearms in public areas, such as parks. They may still post signs, but State law over-rules and the city would be at fault to arrest you. The law itself is pretty self explanatory.
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M1Gunr
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Posted: Tue Dec 23rd, 2008 02:35 pm |
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Preemption covers this:
159:26 Firearms and Ammunition; Authority of the State. –
I. To the extent consistent with federal law, the state of New Hampshire shall have authority and jurisdiction over the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Except as otherwise specifically provided by statute, no ordinance or regulation of a political subdivision may regulate the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state.
We continue to fight this fight in Washington as well. You'll find that although it is posted it is not something that is not enforced by local law enforcement. Its taken us a while but we still attend various meetings for the cities & counties in our area getting them to repeal the ordinances and replace the signs. I have some sample letters if interested.
Last July we did an OC picnic at a County park that was posted "no firearms." I believe we had in excess of 40 folks show up in addition we had a candidate for County commissioner, a deputy sheriff, as well as a candidate for Superior Court Judge show up. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/11576-1.html
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LiveFreeOrDie
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Posted: Tue Dec 23rd, 2008 11:24 pm |
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NewHampshireNative, that law you cited is null and void due to New Hampshire's preemption law.
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XII/159/159-26.htm
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NewHampshireNative
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Posted: Wed Dec 24th, 2008 04:19 pm |
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I know but people still think they do not have to follow the law. I still think and have no plan to test it. That if i was to try and Concealed carry/open carry in the park they would still arrest me. If not for that law for any other law they could get me on. Then in turn they would claim that I'm unfit for my Concealed carry permit and try and pull that. As i have a family i can not afford to go to jail. Even if the court will over turn it and let me go. That being said i would not mind setting up a Open carry BBQ in the park. But again i have a feeling when i go to fill out the paper work for the permit to rent the space.They will tell me that i can not rent it for that reason and so on and so on.
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LiveFreeOrDie
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Posted: Wed Dec 24th, 2008 07:28 pm |
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NewHampshireNative wrote: I know but people still think they do not have to follow the law. I still think and have no plan to test it. That if i was to try and Concealed carry/open carry in the park they would still arrest me. If not for that law for any other law they could get me on. Then in turn they would claim that I'm unfit for my Concealed carry permit and try and pull that. As i have a family i can not afford to go to jail. Even if the court will over turn it and let me go. That being said i would not mind setting up a Open carry BBQ in the park. But again i have a feeling when i go to fill out the paper work for the permit to rent the space.They will tell me that i can not rent it for that reason and so on and so on.
I'm 99.9% sure they wouldn't arrest you. If they would, I'm 100% you would win. I'll OC in a park, and LOTS of people have open carried in parks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7S_zVzDbJM
These laws don't get enforced as everyone knows they're not enforceable. It might be worthwhile to show up to city council and tell them to remove them though. If you want to go and ask for them to be removed, I'll be there and speak in support of it. We need to start speaking up.
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NewHampshireNative
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Posted: Thu Dec 25th, 2008 12:31 am |
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LiveFreeOrDie wrote: NewHampshireNative wrote: I know but people still think they do not have to follow the law. I still think and have no plan to test it. That if i was to try and Concealed carry/open carry in the park they would still arrest me. If not for that law for any other law they could get me on. Then in turn they would claim that I'm unfit for my Concealed carry permit and try and pull that. As i have a family i can not afford to go to jail. Even if the court will over turn it and let me go. That being said i would not mind setting up a Open carry BBQ in the park. But again i have a feeling when i go to fill out the paper work for the permit to rent the space.They will tell me that i can not rent it for that reason and so on and so on.
I'm 99.9% sure they wouldn't arrest you. If they would, I'm 100% you would win. I'll OC in a park, and LOTS of people have open carried in parks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7S_zVzDbJM
These laws don't get enforced as everyone knows they're not enforceable. It might be worthwhile to show up to city council and tell them to remove them though. If you want to go and ask for them to be removed, I'll be there and speak in support of it. We need to start speaking up.
Having what removed? The law? I asked they said it would not happen then they told me to call back next week and talk with the park and Rec's Main guy. But what i think is funny is that they have no sign's posted at the parks about it. I think part of it i did to my self. I found the law and being the need to know person I am i called and asked about the law. At that point i was told i would be the test case. Sounds like you are from Manchester and i would not want to have you drive two hours to come up here to deal with this. It does suck that no one is around my area.
Last edited on Thu Dec 25th, 2008 12:32 am by NewHampshireNative
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LiveFreeOrDie
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Posted: Fri Dec 26th, 2008 04:54 pm |
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The local ordinance doesn't matter, but if you want it removed, you'll need to talk to the city council.
The best way to do it is to hire an attorney and have a judge strike it from the books.
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KBCraig
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Posted: Sat Dec 27th, 2008 03:55 am |
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If you need support in overturning an illegal local ordinance, I suggest hooking up with the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. They're mostly focused on the General Court and statewide issues, but you can definitely find help there.
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JUMPMASTER
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Posted: Wed Dec 31st, 2008 03:22 pm |
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| That local ordianance only prohibits concealed carry in a park. Thus you must open carry to comply with the illegal local ordianance.
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LiveFreeOrDie
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Posted: Wed Dec 31st, 2008 07:06 pm |
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JUMPMASTER wrote: That local ordianance only prohibits concealed carry in a park. Thus you must open carry to comply with the illegal local ordianance.
That's interesting, but irrelevant as the local ordinance is wholly null and void.
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NewHampshireNative
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Posted: Thu Jan 1st, 2009 04:00 am |
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JUMPMASTER wrote: That local ordianance only prohibits concealed carry in a park. Thus you must open carry to comply with the illegal local ordianance.
What law did you read? As the Local code i posted said carrying a pistol. It did not say you could carry it open and not concealed. It said you can not carry one at all open or concealed. But as RSA 159:26 has come into law it does not really matter all that much now does it? Back to the Open carry picnic i was going over it more and more. I would love to set one up and would love to try and get the Ridley report to cover it and would love to try and get WMUR news 9 to come and cover it. Is there any one in my end of the woods?
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JUMPMASTER
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Posted: Thu Jan 1st, 2009 05:33 pm |
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(c) No person, except peace officers or other law enforcement officers, shall have or carry any pistol, switchblade, hunting knife, slingshot, dagger, metal knuckles or other dangerous weapons concealed on or about his person while in the park.
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LiveFreeOrDie
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Posted: Thu Jan 1st, 2009 05:43 pm |
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http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XII/159/159-26.htm
I. To the extent consistent with federal law, the state of New Hampshire shall have authority and jurisdiction over the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Except as otherwise specifically provided by statute, no ordinance or regulation of a political subdivision may regulate the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting a political subdivision's right to adopt zoning ordinances for the purpose of regulating firearms businesses in the same manner as other businesses or to take any action allowed under RSA 207:59.
II. Upon the effective date of this section, all municipal ordinances and regulations not authorized under paragraph I relative to the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearm components, ammunition, or firearms supplies shall be null and void.
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