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cloudcroft
Activist Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 29th, 2008 04:30 pm |
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I asked this before but don't recall getting an answer:
Is there anything in NM law that deals with flap holsers for OC handguns?
Are they okay to OC in even if most of the gun is "concealed" in them or not?
I ask because some milsurp handguns are 99% NEVER listed when you go look for "civilian" holsters for them but they DO have nice military flap hoslters that fit them perfectly...AND protect the gun, etc..
[No, I don't mind that they are "slow" to draw from...besides, "slow" is relative]
So, any legal citations on this issue?
-- John D.
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DocNTexas
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 08:43 pm |
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Hhmmmmm!
Now that is a good, thought provoking question.
If the holster completely hides the weapon I would say it would be considered concealed. Although the holster eludes to the fact that a handgun could be inside, the same could be said about a fannypack.
Furthermore, several places in NM have warned that even carrying in the waistband would be considered concealed, but there again, what is the the difference in the waistband and a holster? If a holster is not considered concealed if part of the weapon is visible, then should it be the same for the holster itself?
Since wearing a holster is not an issue (i.e. it is legal to wear a holster anywhere), I would say the intent behind the law is the ability to easily identify the presence of the weapon. This would probably make a full flap holster illegal.
Just my thoughts on the subject, but who knows. It really probably comes down to the cop you meet, the judge you have and the jury you draw. 
Doc
Last edited on Wed May 7th, 2008 01:40 pm by DocNTexas
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cloudcroft
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 01:32 am |
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Thanks...I guess wearing my flap holster it will be an adventure of discovery.
-- John D.
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DustoneGT
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Posted: Wed Sep 3rd, 2008 11:46 pm |
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Chaparral used to have high crime rates and no regular police protection so some of the residents decided to start policing the streets to make a statement and get some police protection in the area.
One woman was nearly arrested for using a cavalry-style holster that covered most of the gun.
I wouldn't recommend using one. Just go with a generic open holster.
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cloudcroft
Activist Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 12:00 am |
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There is no open holster for a Tokarev, generic or otherwise, so it'd have to be a $$$ custom-made.
Most cops don't even know the law so I wouldn't say this proves that you can't use a flap holster.
Regardless, I wish the cops were just as enthusiastic in enforcing the people's right to OPEN CARRY as they are to find ways to the contrary.
I mean the cops aren't there to protect the neighborhood yet they then harass the people who live there trying to protect themselves.
What BS.
And yes, I use the word harass because I still have not seen the law that comes out and clearly states -- rather than us guessing and presuming here -- that a flap holster is not legal for open carry. So if even the law isn't clear, or doesn't DEFINE "concealed" clearly, then the cops should err on the side of the good guy...and spend their time looking for real criminals.
Besides, they aren't in the neighborhood -- except to "almost arrest" the lady -- so what is it to them anyway.
-- John D.
Last edited on Thu Sep 4th, 2008 12:04 am by cloudcroft
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gpshrader
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 04:16 am |
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As a Mounted Patrol Officer, I worked with the Dona Ana Sheriff's deputies and state police officers that live in the Chaparral area for many years. Two of our best Mounties have been long-time residents of Chaparral.
The "citizen's posse" that was formed in Chaparral several years ago became a problem for law enforcement in that they did not answer to anyone and claimed to be approved by the county sheriff, which was not true. They were individuals acting on their own and none of them knew enough about the laws to stay out of trouble. In some instances when we conducted drug raids some of them would show up with guns and we had no idea who they were. In a couple of instances they showed up and actually damaged the crime scene we were guarding, by walking into the crime area without permission. One of our Mounted Patrol officers at that time (she has since moved away) was heading up the "citizens patrol" without my permission (I was her commander at the time). Her involvement eventually led me to suspend her from the Mounted Patrol and she resigned. In a few cases, we suspected someone in the "citizens posse" was tipping off the drug dealers of our pending raids.
For many years the state police have had at least one officer and the Dona Ana Sheriff has a deputy and Otero County Sheriff has a deputy living in Chaparral. With the knowledge from these individuals and the two Mounties in the area, we have been able to hit the area with numerous, very successful, drug raids over the past several years. I have participated in several of those raids as a Mounted Patrol officer working for the state police.
As for protecting the public, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled it is the responsibility of the law enforcement to protect the community as a whole, but not necessarily the individuals. That makes sense as there are not enough police officers to provide personal protection to everyone. That is what personal bodyguards are for. Also, as Americans, it is our personal responsibility to protect ourselves, that is why our forefathers were wise enough to insist on the original Ten Amendments to our Constitution and especially the Second Amendment.
As for the officers' lack of knowledge of our gun laws, I can say this in their defense: A police officer is like any other professional (including physicians) when they first get into their profession, they are not experts on all the laws (there are thousands of them) they must enforce. Over a period of several years, they become very knowledgeable of the laws they encounter on a regular basis. Frankly, the only big problem with firearms violators is occuring amoung felons and gang-bangers that are prohibited by law from being in posession of a firearm. The law-abiding citizen is not a problem.
Few officers have had the time to study in great detail the firearms laws as we discuss them on these forums, so it behoves us as citizens to study our firearms laws in detail and then abide by them, rather than try to test them with our officers. (They are on our side.)
Aren't you glad you live in a state that has few gun laws? I am, and I know them very well.
GPShrader
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gpshrader
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 04:29 am |
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My response, as a police officer, depends on the officer and judge you may end up dealing with. If you go before a magistrate judge, which would be the normal course of enforcement, you may have a judge that rules the "flap type" holster does not conceal the holster in such a manner as to make it "not visible to the ordinary observations of a reasonable person." Another judrge may rule just the opposite.
My question is" Why would you want to provoke that question to begin with?" I realize a flap holster does protect a handgun from adverse weather conditions and at the same time makes the weapon almost usless as a defensive tool. By the time you got the flap out of your way and managed to draw the handgun you would have been shot or stabbed many times.
If you are hunting in the field with adverse field conditions and are carrying a hunting type handgun, a flap design would be appropriate. If you are carrying it in public as a defense tool, you would be very ill-equipped.
The moral: carry a handgun in a manner that meets its intended purpose.
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 07:15 pm |
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I beg to differ. I can pull my 1911-A1 as nearly as fast with the flapped M1902 type Cav holster as with a thumb break. 'Just takes two hands usually. (This is where the term 'slap leather' comes from. I don't perceive any fast draw contests anyway. I have fully enclosed military holsters (made for) the Makarov, P-38 and Luger... altho the Luger 'clamshell' would be a problem for certain. The Luger fits the P-38 holster tho. These holsters need to be worn cross draw or otherwise tied down if worn strong side. The Cav holster has a pivot... the WWII and subsequent types for a military web belt do not. The Bianch UM-84 type is also a flapped holster... but the flap can be removed and a thumb break retainer added. I use this type now... still cross draw. Why cross draw? 'Cause it doesn't interfere with my seat belt and I can draw in a sittin' position.. same as on horseback. Otherwise yer gun is into yer armpit before ya can clear the holster. I also carry the 1911 on 1/2 cock notch... (Condition 2) 'round chambered. My instincts are Single action... 'n that hammer comes back on the draw. By the time I 'present'... my thumb is back on the grip safety. I prob'ly learned that in the Navy... 'cause we carried 'em that way when so armed with a 1911-A1. Yeah... I know all about the 'could lead to accidental discharge on de-cocking'... but that's why I do it outside. 'Same as a Winchester lever action.
I find it odd that States have overlooked flapped holsters... which have been around longer than some of the States.
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gpshrader
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Posted: Mon Sep 22nd, 2008 05:07 am |
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I appreciate your comments on the flap holster and I believe there is a time for them, but from a defensive point of view, they are inapproprate.
I agree that when sitting in an automobile, a carry method other that "strong-side" is much more convenient. But after spending many hours riding in a police unit, you want a holster that does not project very far below your belt line or it will be jammed into the seat and into your waistline. For that reason, several years ago I switched from a mid-rise holster to a highrise for my duty holster. I got tired of the butt of my pistol jabbing me in the ribs.
Look at what the professionals use. That is always the best way to evaluate a product. No professional shooter, or trainer uses a flap type holster.
But to each his own. That is why so many products are out there, because different folks like different strokes.
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gpshrader
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Posted: Mon Sep 22nd, 2008 05:15 am |
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Another though about the flap type holster: If you are trying to fight off an assailant that is trying to take your gun how can you fight them off and use two hands to draw your handgun from a flap type holster?
Or suppose you got shot, or slashed with a knife, in one arm rendering it useless, how would you draw from the flap holster quick enough to save your hide?
These are scenerios we train officers and concealed carry citizens to deal with. Study "what if" scenerios and decide for yourself.
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Sep 22nd, 2008 03:37 pm |
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Having been a LEO... and REQUIRED to carry strong side... and having the butt of that S&W Mod 10 jam in seat cushion periodically (where I exited the cruiser minus the pistol which was stuck in the seat) (Department issued holster).... and having purchased my own hi-rise holster because of that... only to find that 6" barrel was another obstacle.
I take it those 'against ' flap holsters have never used one... and can only 'assume'... (much as some think folding stocks on AK's are 'flimsy' (NOT). 'There's only a stud thru the flap to hold it down... which can be swept upon drawing the weapon. New holsters are usually stiff and the 'hole' in the flap sometines smaller than it should be. A minute with a drill takes care of that problem... and working the leather cures the stiffness. Some flap holsters (the European ones) have a tab holding the flap secured from the bottom. 'Still not a problem. It's still easy enuff to do one handed.
How many professional 'trainers' have ever actually been inna gunfight? I have... 'n it's nuthin' like any 'training' situation I ever attended. All this Quick Draw McGraw, Weaver stance 'n aim stuff looks dramatic... but y'all'd do well to learn 'point shooting' from any azimuth or physical position (single handed).
'Fighting off an assailant trying to take your gun"... OK... so how many times is a civilian gonna encounter that scenario? "He who defends against all, defends nothing": Sun Tzu
Nobody's invincible... or invulnerable... 'n maybe I'm just not that paranoid. Some days you get the bear... some days the bear gets you.
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DustoneGT
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Posted: Sun Mar 15th, 2009 05:05 pm |
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gpshrader wrote: As a Mounted Patrol Officer, I worked with the Dona Ana Sheriff's deputies and state police officers that live in the Chaparral area for many years. Two of our best Mounties have been long-time residents of Chaparral.
The "citizen's posse" that was formed in Chaparral several years ago became a problem for law enforcement in that they did not answer to anyone and claimed to be approved by the county sheriff, which was not true. They were individuals acting on their own and none of them knew enough about the laws to stay out of trouble. In some instances when we conducted drug raids some of them would show up with guns and we had no idea who they were. In a couple of instances they showed up and actually damaged the crime scene we were guarding, by walking into the crime area without permission. One of our Mounted Patrol officers at that time (she has since moved away) was heading up the "citizens patrol" without my permission (I was her commander at the time). Her involvement eventually led me to suspend her from the Mounted Patrol and she resigned. In a few cases, we suspected someone in the "citizens posse" was tipping off the drug dealers of our pending raids.
For many years the state police have had at least one officer and the Dona Ana Sheriff has a deputy and Otero County Sheriff has a deputy living in Chaparral. With the knowledge from these individuals and the two Mounties in the area, we have been able to hit the area with numerous, very successful, drug raids over the past several years. I have participated in several of those raids as a Mounted Patrol officer working for the state police.
As for protecting the public, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled it is the responsibility of the law enforcement to protect the community as a whole, but not necessarily the individuals. That makes sense as there are not enough police officers to provide personal protection to everyone. That is what personal bodyguards are for. Also, as Americans, it is our personal responsibility to protect ourselves, that is why our forefathers were wise enough to insist on the original Ten Amendments to our Constitution and especially the Second Amendment.
As for the officers' lack of knowledge of our gun laws, I can say this in their defense: A police officer is like any other professional (including physicians) when they first get into their profession, they are not experts on all the laws (there are thousands of them) they must enforce. Over a period of several years, they become very knowledgeable of the laws they encounter on a regular basis. Frankly, the only big problem with firearms violators is occuring amoung felons and gang-bangers that are prohibited by law from being in posession of a firearm. The law-abiding citizen is not a problem.
Few officers have had the time to study in great detail the firearms laws as we discuss them on these forums, so it behoves us as citizens to study our firearms laws in detail and then abide by them, rather than try to test them with our officers. (They are on our side.)
Aren't you glad you live in a state that has few gun laws? I am, and I know them very well.
GPShrader I had some family members involved in the whole citizens patrol thing in the beginning when they were just trying to get press and get some more LEOs in the area. Once the new substation was set up and more officers were on patrol, they figured their goal was met and they backed out of the patrol thing.
Some of the guys and gals didn't understand the original goal and kept up acting like they were cops.
I can understand your annoyance with those guys, but rest assured that the original people involved are a lot more mentally stable.
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 15th, 2009 08:11 pm |
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'Kind'a thought this thread was dead... (it got derailed for sure). About flap holsters.... Honestly... does it look like there's anything other than a pistol in them?
I mean... what freakin' planet would you have to be from not to know what a flapped holster looks like? As for 'professionals'... methinks many (if not all) are full of themselves and have never been in an actual gunfight. These are the same Secret Sam yahoo's who'll tell ya that an open carrier is a target waiting to happen. (I'm still waitin'...)
If some LEO... approaches anyone with a flapped holster and jacks 'em up for carryin' concealed... then how the hell did he identify it as a gun in the first place? Obviously it's a GUN... and obviously it's out in the open. Just another example of bone-headed stupidity and senseless harrassment. Last time I looked... people still had freedom of choice. Y'know... PREFERANCE? Maybe they like flapped holsters... maybe that's what they're comfortable with. 'Whole bunch'a folks went to war with flapped holsters (still do). The whole premise of 'concealed' is silly. What ever happened to common sense? 'Just another example of LEO's opinion over actual Rights. 'Guess you really can't fix stupid.
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DustoneGT
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Posted: Sun Mar 15th, 2009 09:59 pm |
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Sonora Rebel wrote: 'Kind'a thought this thread was dead... (it got derailed for sure). About flap holsters.... Honestly... does it look like there's anything other than a pistol in them?
I mean... what freakin' planet would you have to be from not to know what a flapped holster looks like? As for 'professionals'... methinks many (if not all) are full of themselves and have never been in an actual gunfight. These are the same Secret Sam yahoo's who'll tell ya that an open carrier is a target waiting to happen. (I'm still waitin'...)
If some LEO... approaches anyone with a flapped holster and jacks 'em up for carryin' concealed... then how the hell did he identify it as a gun in the first place? Obviously it's a GUN... and obviously it's out in the open. Just another example of bone-headed stupidity and senseless harrassment. Last time I looked... people still had freedom of choice. Y'know... PREFERANCE? Maybe they like flapped holsters... maybe that's what they're comfortable with. 'Whole bunch'a folks went to war with flapped holsters (still do). The whole premise of 'concealed' is silly. What ever happened to common sense? 'Just another example of LEO's opinion over actual Rights. 'Guess you really can't fix stupid.
You shouldn't say stuff like that.....I almost spit water all over my computer!
ROFLMAO and all that.
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cloudcroft
Activist Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 16th, 2009 03:01 am |
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I also would think it IS clear to ANYONE -- even cops -- that a flap holster screams "gun" and therefore it's not being carried concealed, even if none of the gun is showing. Some people even say a fanny pack screams gun, so I would think a flap holster surely would. But as the saying goes, common sense isn't common anymore.
Still, I would like to see it spelled-out.
I mean if even intelligent people (judges) can't interpret the 2nd Amendment properly to understand what the phrase "to keep and bear arms" means, then it seems one has to add as much unambiguous explanatory text to a law so that NO ONE can get it wrong...and I sure don't want to leave it up to the average cop (using his/her "officer's discretion") to "guess" what a given law means.
Sure, it all might get cleared up after one is disarmed, arrested and taken "downtown," but it shouldn't have to go that far.
As for why flap holsters (why some people would want one), well, some of us are just "special" (yeah, maybe even "special needs"): I had a GI-issue, one each, leather, "US" marked flap holster for my 1911 over in the RVN and I was comfortable with it over there. And I carried it cross-draw which I find even today (39 years later) still quite comfortable and accessible. If it worked for me in a damn combat zone, I am not worried about using a flap holster here. Besides, situational-awareness should ALWAYS be in force at all times, so I expect to see trouble coming in order to have the time to get the gun out of the holster...which really doesn't take that much time anyway.
But maybe that's just me, yet as has been mentioned, it's also freedom of choice.
-- John D.
Last edited on Mon Mar 16th, 2009 08:13 pm by cloudcroft
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 16th, 2009 06:46 pm |
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Q. Which one of these does not hold a pistol?
A. None (Makarov, P-38, '51 Colt Navy. 1911-A1)
Before holsters were 'holsters'... they were called scabbards. Scabbards enclosed the entire pistol. Therefore, flapped holsters pre-empt anything else since. Anyone who would view these as 'concealed' has gotta be a slack-jawed, vacant-eyed, droolin' idiot window licker.
Attached Image (viewed 611 times):
 Last edited on Mon Mar 16th, 2009 06:54 pm by Sonora Rebel
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cloudcroft
Activist Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 16th, 2009 08:07 pm |
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Well, you COULD just be a clothes-horse wanting to sport a "kewl" belt accessory and to carry your cell-phone and cigarettes in them!
My military-issue Tokarev holsters are just like the one (with spare magazine pouch) at the S.W. corner of your picture...except mine are tan (but the flap securing tab comes up from the bottom, not down from the top since the brass "post" is on the flap itself, like the smaller black holster above it).
-- John D.
Last edited on Mon Mar 16th, 2009 08:16 pm by cloudcroft
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 16th, 2009 08:18 pm |
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Yeh - rite! 
Ohh-ohhh-ooo It's covered by the holster... therefore it's 'concealed'...
IT'S A HOLSTER... FOR CARRYING GUNS! HELLO? What's next... tie 'em around our neck?
This is just one more excuse for harrassment (wink-wink) 'cuz 'only folks ought'a carry guns is LEO's... cuz they're SPECIAL. Only LEO's know gun stuff... Their instructors told 'em so in the Academy.... cuz they read it inna book by Sarah Brady once't. The 2A? Oh... THAT! Well... that was written a long time ago... 'D'frint now.
Last edited on Mon Mar 16th, 2009 08:18 pm by Sonora Rebel
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cloudcroft
Activist Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 12:05 am |
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The original question was asked because I have read in other guns forums/website some time ago (forget where) that an OC gun that is not cearly seen is considered CC. IIRC, some posters have said some states have definitions re: what is open and what is concealed, by how much of the OC gun in a OC holster actually is visible within said holster (what percentage of it must be visible or, what IS visible makes it CLEAR that a gun is inside). In such a situation (or state) with such nit-picking laws, if a holster completely covers the gun, technically it is concealed.
Again, I'm not talking about common sense, I'm talking about state/municipal laws/ordinances.
That's why OC holsters need to be defined legally in some places.
-- John D.
http://concealedcarryforum.com/forum/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=44801&TOPIC_ID=5226&FORUM_ID=6
http://ingunowners.com/forums/politics_laws_and_2nd_amendment/10415-ohio_open_carry_is_about_to_be_court_tested.html
Last edited on Tue Mar 17th, 2009 12:53 am by cloudcroft
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fighting_for_freedom
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 24th, 2009 02:00 am |
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cloudcroft wrote: SNIP: My military-issue Tokarev holsters are just like the one (with spare magazine pouch) at the S.W. corner of your picture...except mine are tan (but the flap securing tab comes up from the bottom, not down from the top since the brass "post" is on the flap itself, like the smaller black holster above it).
If that's what your flap holster looks like, then you should take a look at the holsters by Bulldog... they come in a buncha different sizes:
http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0054356229126a.shtml
They're cheap, very sturdy, completely adjustable, and have a cool/nifty little mag pouch on the front.
I say this because I have a 1915 Astra and my secondary holster for it looks EXACTLY like that one in the SW corner of his picture (I do have the original holster for the gun but there's no way I'm going to wear that thing. 1915-2009.... leather is getting a bit old and it's worn enough as it is. I'd much rather preserve it on the shelf.) Anyways, I looked and looked for a damn holster to carry my gun in for OC... couldn't find anything. I didn't like my secondary holster for OC, 'cause like the original, it's got the dang flap.
Then one day I walked into the local shooting goods store that just opened and saw this nifty little holster up there. Went home, got my Astra, went back to the store, and it fit great. Had to adjust the thumb break strap a tad, but good fit overall. Not the prettiest holster, kinda looks like a bump on your hip. But effective.
If you want something other than a flap holster to carry your gun in, I suggest trying one of these. It's possible a store around your area might carry one, if not, they're cheap and if you order one and it doesn't fit, you can always send it back.
Anyways, thought I'd post this. I googled the Tokarev and it looks much like the Colt 1903 Pocket Pistol, of which my Astra is a (bulkier) Spanish copy.
Hope this helps!
Edit: Corectteed sum spelleeng....
Last edited on Tue Mar 24th, 2009 02:03 am by fighting_for_freedom
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