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para_org
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Posted: Fri Mar 20th, 2009 03:53 pm |
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Thanks for the honest comments. I appreciate these comments as much as the positive ones. And yes some would say I am tilting at windmills. I understand this.
Interestingly at a neighborhood gathering a couple of weeks ago the question was asked if anyone knew a cop that wasn't an ass^*%*. NO ONE answered in favor of the police. Sadly NO ONE seemed surprised at the answers either. <- My point is that you might as well be right about the sheriff deputies not wanting to display a more positive image and behaving as we all would like to hope peace officers should act. And that is truly sad.
I did have a recorder btw. Last edited on Fri Mar 20th, 2009 03:59 pm by para_org
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Mar 20th, 2009 04:34 pm |
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| I find this LEO attitude in NM disturbing. Being unfamiliar with the counties... what town/city area is this near? This isn't normal for NM... or didn't used to be.
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para_org
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Posted: Fri Mar 20th, 2009 04:48 pm |
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Bernalillo County Sheriff's Dept.
The restaurant this took place at has an Albuquerque address.
Last edited on Fri Mar 20th, 2009 04:49 pm by para_org
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Mar 20th, 2009 04:52 pm |
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Geez... Reckon I'll steer south of there from now on. Y'all gotta get that attitude fixed.
What are they hirin'... former New Jersey cops? Maybe you should have 'taken it outside'.
Last edited on Fri Mar 20th, 2009 04:53 pm by Sonora Rebel
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Citizen
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Fri Mar 20th, 2009 05:39 pm |
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para_org wrote: Citizen wrote: I'm not sure I understand why you omitted verbally refusing consent
This is actually a very good question. I will try to answer it.
I refused to speak with him until I was done with my business. He ignored that. He also told me he was not interested in being informed on the law, and then after I prematurely finished my (business) call and affirmed that I could not comply with what had become his demands to produce a carry license for open carry. He made comments about taking it outside, which meant he fully understood that I was not offering consent. He did this each time I indicated my inability or desire to comply.
I also took the opportunity to declare that the law did not support his intrusion AND by directly indicating that his business was not as important or as pressing as mine.
Finally in NM open-carry itself is specifically protected by the state constitution. The deputy immediately "broke Terry procedures" by even approaching me in the first place without another reason. At that very instant the onus of any legality (color of law) was already upon him. And he surprised even me by indicating that he did what he did in disregard for the rules and with primary regard for public "safety". His superior surprised me even more by indicating that his deputy did NOT violate any training or procedures when violating my privacy without due consideration for the constitutional protections accorded everyone in NM as it relates to both Terry v. Ohio and open-carry within this state.
I guess what I am saying is that he messed up the minute he approached me to demand compliance. He, his superior, and the I.A. all should have known that. It would stretch my beliefs to figure otherwise. More especially since he got nasty and threatening when I pointed out that I was fully legal. All the rest is just what my dad use to call 'silver-coated bull droppings'.
This was essentially my analysis, too.
You gain additional advantage by refusing consent while complying.
First, it may give the cop second thoughts, especially if he already knows he's on the edge of legality or beyond.
Second, it tends to erase or diminish the opportunity for any later police dodges that you didn't refuse consent, therefore it was consensual, etc.
Too, I imagine cops tend to think in channels or along certain lines as much as anyone else. A refusal tells them there is a turn in the road, the usual path dictated by policy, and they have to actually decide whether to override the refusal, decide which path to take.
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Jizzzle
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Posted: Fri Mar 20th, 2009 10:48 pm |
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On a human level why do cops always worry about the safety and rights of everyone it seems but, the person with the gun? the excuses are I am bothering/being an @#$% to you is because it's for the safety/wellbeing of the "customers" or "citizens" or "public".. Just a thought here.. and I'm just spit balling. What in the hell happened to my well being? Am I not a customer of this establishment? A citizen of this country? A member of the Public? Where and when did I sign a form that stated that upon the carry of a firearm/weapon I waived that status?
And another thing, where do cops get the idea that they are allowed to act different than the common citizen? They are supposed to be held to a higher standard not put on a pedestal, sheilded from critisism. I'm military and I hold myself to said standard. I take pride as I'm sure a lot of you do in being as law abiding a citizen as i can possibly be and somehow sometimes that isn't enough. (Rant over).
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Rnashwa
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Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 02:24 pm |
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This cop needs to become the friend of OC citizens. We who are participating in OC should be gracious and accommodating in all interactions with cops/concerned citizens. My advice is to drop it. If you have filed a formal complaint, withdraw it. LE supervisors sometimes have more potential to change behaviors of subordinates thru 'informal process' than 'formal process' when everybody 'lawyers up'. Never argue with a cop, ever. Never lecture a cop on the law. Comply graciously. Cops must come to know the OC community as friends and reasonable people.
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Citizen
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 05:20 pm |
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Rnashwa wrote: This cop needs to become the friend of OC citizens. We who are participating in OC should be gracious and accommodating in all interactions with cops/concerned citizens. My advice is to drop it. If you have filed a formal complaint, withdraw it. LE supervisors sometimes have more potential to change behaviors of subordinates thru 'informal process' than 'formal process' when everybody 'lawyers up'. Never argue with a cop, ever. Never lecture a cop on the law. Comply graciously. Cops must come to know the OC community as friends and reasonable people.
Welcome to OCDO, Rnashwa!!!
We appreciate the advice. It shows a level head.
We have had something over two years to examine police-OCer encounters in detail and hash out even the minutia, running to pages and pages and pages, a few hundred guys adding their brain power to look at these things from almost every conceivable angle.
Its not this officer's understanding of OC laws that is at issue. Its his misunderstanding/refusal on the 4th Amendment that is at issue. And you can bet the house that he did not pick this person (OCer) as the first time to violate someone's 4A rights.
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ilbob
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Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 05:30 pm |
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A formal complaint is in order if you think you have been wronged.
i would point out that nromally you are required to swear that the statements you have given are true when you make a formal complaint, and there could be criminal sanctions if they find so much as an iota of falsehood in what you swear to.
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Anubis
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 09:26 pm |
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para_org wrote: I was wondering if even giving them my id was required, in NM
Theoretically not without reasonable articulable suspicion (which OC is not), but NM is a "stop and identify" state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes
Last edited on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 10:05 pm by Anubis
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para_org
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Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 09:54 pm |
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Anubis wrote: para_org wrote: I was wondering if even giving them my id was required, in NM
Theoretically not without reasonable articulabe suspicion (which OC is not), but NM is a "stop and identify" state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes
Thank you very much for verifying this and for the link.
Of course this brings us back to whether this detainment was made correctly under color of law as required by Terry v Ohio. It certainly was a detainment because I did not give my consent and further declared my intent and desire to finish my business **before** having a consenual contact or discussion. My wishes to continue my business were ignored.
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 24th, 2009 12:32 am |
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Rnashwa wrote: This cop needs to become the friend of OC citizens. We who are participating in OC should be gracious and accommodating in all interactions with cops/concerned citizens. My advice is to drop it. If you have filed a formal complaint, withdraw it. LE supervisors sometimes have more potential to change behaviors of subordinates thru 'informal process' than 'formal process' when everybody 'lawyers up'. Never argue with a cop, ever. Never lecture a cop on the law. Comply graciously. Cops must come to know the OC community as friends and reasonable people.
This 'cop' is in New Mexico. Cops 'n deputies don't act that way in New Mexico. I dunno where this yahoo was from... but I suspect he's a recent transplant from some area where the 2A is restricted/denied. What you're suggesting is a servile attitude to an obvious and deliberate civil rights violation. First the demand for a 'drivers license'. He wasn't driving. Then... the CWP demand... he wasn't concealing. There was no probable cause for any of this. This clown is an obvious JBT onna power trip.
The repeated ''Do you want to take this outside?" comments especially. (Where there are no witnesses.) This guy is a thug with a badge... 'n that's all he is. Conduct like this should be exposed and at the very least... REPORTED. I don't 'participate' in OC... I exercise the Right to bear arms (and do... and have... and will continue to). This isn't some kind'a 'novelty'... it's a way of life.
"Evil triumphs when good men do NOTHING!" If the Department won't give the OP satisfation... I'd advise to 'lawyer up' and SUE their drawers off. That gets their attention. That's the only thing that gets their attention.
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Jizzzle
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Posted: Tue Mar 24th, 2009 04:38 am |
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| unfortunatly that is correct.
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DustoneGT
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Posted: Fri Apr 3rd, 2009 12:21 am |
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I sent Bernalillo Sheriff's an email explaining why this concerns me. I don't go into Albuquerque very often, but when I go I expect my rights to be respected.
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para_org
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Posted: Fri Apr 3rd, 2009 01:42 am |
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Here's the latest;
I called today and asked where the formal complaint forms were that I asked for 14 days earlier. I was told that since I had "elected" to do an informal complaint I was not allowed to make a formal complaint. I said this was not something I was told, and the officer said he was sure I was so informed by others. (In fact this particular officer told me 2 weeks ago that I had up to a month to register a formal complaint even though I had already discussed what had happened with the Internal Affairs department and had asked for a correction to the policy and/or officer training.)
I began to write down this officer's exact wording. He got upset and and said I was just baiting him by calling, that the matter was already taken care of, and that "this converstaion is obviously not going to go nowhere so it is over." And he hung up. (And yes the mistakes in the grammar are as he said them. Interestingly this particular fellow I was speaking with is a Sergeant.)
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DKSuddeth
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Posted: Fri Apr 3rd, 2009 03:20 am |
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para_org wrote: Here's the latest;
I called today and asked where the formal complaint forms were that I asked for 14 days earlier. I was told that since I had "elected" to do an informal complaint I was not allowed to make a formal complaint. I said this was not something I was told, and the officer said he was sure I was so informed by others. (In fact this particular officer told me 2 weeks ago that I had up to a month to register a formal complaint even though I had already discussed what had happened with the Internal Affairs department and had asked for a correction to the policy and/or officer training.)
I began to write down this officer's exact wording. He got upset and and said I was just baiting him by calling, that the matter was already taken care of, and that "this converstaion is obviously not going to go nowhere so it is over." And he hung up. (And yes the mistakes in the grammar are as he said them. Interestingly this particular fellow I was speaking with is a Sergeant.)
go make the formal complaint. take a lawyer if necessary.
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DustoneGT
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Posted: Fri Apr 3rd, 2009 04:29 am |
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Wow. What a load of manure!
Do whatever it takes to make the formal complaint. Be annoying as hell. Make their lives miserable until they cave.
You might also see of somebody at the state level can take a complaint. I would try DPS. They are only in charge of state police, mounted patrol and related stuff, but legally the county is a subdivision of the state and from thence gets its power. If DPS doesn't take complaints on subdivisions, perhaps they can help you find somebody in charge of law enforcement in NM.
I'll keep bugging them too. It doesn't really matter if I piss them off because I rarely go into Bernalillo county.
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4sooth
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Posted: Sat Apr 11th, 2009 11:38 pm |
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See U.S. v Dudley---where the Southern District Court of Indiana ruled that in a state which allows the open carry of firearms on your person or in a car, there is no probable cause to approach someone on the basis of his/her carrying a firearm.
This case is one of two convicted felons who had their truck searched because someone saw a firearm in their vehicle.They were in possession of NFA wepons as well as common firearms.The whole case was tossed out because there was no PC to approach them.
Get a copy of this and keep it with you.And you might send a copy to the chief as well.He will be very surprised to see this.
Last edited on Wed Apr 15th, 2009 04:03 am by 4sooth
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GoldCoaster
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Apr 12th, 2009 01:30 am |
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Rnashwa wrote: This cop needs to become the friend of OC citizens. We who are participating in OC should be gracious and accommodating in all interactions with cops/concerned citizens. My advice is to drop it. If you have filed a formal complaint, withdraw it. LE supervisors sometimes have more potential to change behaviors of subordinates thru 'informal process' than 'formal process' when everybody 'lawyers up'. Never argue with a cop, ever. Never lecture a cop on the law. Comply graciously. Cops must come to know the OC community as friends and reasonable people.
Spoken like a true appeaser. And the next time an OC'er gets accosted they will wind up with a boot to the throat.
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RogueAussie
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Apr 12th, 2009 03:53 am |
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Do not know if this helps but I heard on the radio that the APD cops carry belt recorders
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