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Orygunner
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 03:21 pm |
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I reviewed a several of the recent comments on the propsed rule change, and just as it did a couple of months ago, it still looks like the Allows are beating the Denys. I don't understand why they keep extending the period for comments. Are they hoping that somehow the comments are going to change drastically?
I subscribe to the National Parks Conservation Association Email newsletter, and they keep sending out Emails about keeping guns out of the parks about every week or so:
http://www.npca.org/keep_parks_safe/
I've replied back to their Emails and even Emailed their president with questions, and they never answer.
...Questions like: Why don't you people do something positive for a change?...
...Orygunner...
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rodbender
Founder's Club Member
| Joined: | Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Elgin, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 773 |
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 03:24 pm |
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Toymaker wrote: MSNBC National Park Carry Poll: - poll is at main page on left - look for "vote" at http://www.msnbc.msn.com
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25820753
Showdown over packing heat in national parks
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25630796/
Doug Morris says he never responded to a crime that would have been prevented had a visitor been carrying a concealed weapon.
Hey, Doug, ever think that there may not have been a crime to respond to if the visitor, a.k.a. victim, had been toting? Just a report to fill out on how dumb the perp was, and a phone call to someone to pick up the remains.
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tracylaud83
Member
| Joined: | Sun Apr 13th, 2008 |
| Location: | Ocala, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 91 |
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 07:34 pm |
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Sheldon wrote: that is a joke and he is living in a fantasy world. The last time I was in Yellowstone there were two people attacked by bears, and over a half dozen were assaulted and robbed by the other vicious animals in the park, n that was over a four day period of time, taint no island of safety or safe haven there.
The only Island of safety and safe haven, is for the criminal who will always have the upper hand in these places... until the law changes.....
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deepdiver
Activist Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Missouri USA |
| Posts: | 3862 |
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 11:18 pm |
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rodbender wrote: Toymaker wrote: MSNBC National Park Carry Poll: - poll is at main page on left - look for "vote" at http://www.msnbc.msn.com
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25820753
Showdown over packing heat in national parks
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25630796/
Doug Morris says he never responded to a crime that would have been prevented had a visitor been carrying a concealed weapon.
Hey, Doug, ever think that there may not have been a crime to respond to if the visitor, a.k.a. victim, had been toting? Just a report to fill out on how dumb the perp was, and a phone call to someone to pick up the remains.
I wish I had his magic 8 ball that would tell me for sure what would or would not have happened if the situation had not been the same as it was.
And even if he hasn't, there are certainly park rangers who have responded to crimes that could have been prevented if the citizen were armed.That would be like a 20 year LEO veteran telling a rookie LEO that he doesn't need to carry his gun because the veteran hasn't had to pull his in his entire career.  Save me from the good people!
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Diocoles
Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 02:13 am |
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| Since I was a kid back in the 50s and 60s, I've seen reports after reports about people being killed, eaten and mauled by bear, mountain lions and even deer. No one had a gun to protect themselves. They sure don't mention all those episodes in their attempts to disarm law abiding citizens.
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rodbender
Founder's Club Member
| Joined: | Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Elgin, Texas USA |
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Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 02:54 am |
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| Some thugs may hang out in National Parks because they know the visitors are unarmed.
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Diocoles
Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 05:26 am |
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Not to mention all the rapes and murders lately in the national forests. Kidnapping and god knows what else has befallen some of the innocents just merrily walking in the forest thinking the forest ranger will save them from the big bad wolves.....
F**king rangers want to make me ralph.
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Orygunner
Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 06:46 am |
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Hey! The first I saw this poll, it was like 38% for NO firearms, and only 24% for either open or concealed carry in the parks.
Now it's down to 34% for NO firearms, and that's matched at 34% by carry open or concealed!
We're kickin their butt in spite of their "divide and conquer" tactics on the poll!
...Orygunner...
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2bfree
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| Joined: | Sat Jul 26th, 2008 |
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Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 07:42 pm |
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bcronnie wrote: okay, I know criminals don't register guns and guns don't kill people only idiots using them do but still, please people, keep the guns out of the parks. The parks are small islands of sanity in what is more and more an insane planet. The rangers are right in saying that bringing weapons into the park endagers the wildlife far more than there is a risk of animal to human or human to human conflict. Bringing weapons will only see the number of incidents escalate.
The NRA and open carry assertions that people need to defend themselves falls pretty flat in the face of the number of incidents of where gun toting 'law abiding' individuals act to carry out or assist in the prevention of 'crime'. Let us see some statistics backing up this 'urban myth' if there are any.
Those statistics are easy to find. They are from a variety of sources. From Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun," 86 The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995) we find that guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day. This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.
Dr. Kleck is a professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Florida State University in Tallahassee. He has researched extensively and published several essays on the gun control issue. His book, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, has become a widely cited source in the gun control debate. In fact, this book earned Dr. Kleck the prestigious American Society of Criminology Michael J. Hindelang award for 1993. This award is given for the book published in the past two to three years that makes the most outstanding contribution to criminology.
Even those who don't like the conclusions Dr. Kleck reaches, cannot argue with his impeccable research and methodology. In "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," Marvin E. Wolfgang writes that, "What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator. . . . I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research. Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence." Wolfgang, "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology. Wolfgang says there is no "contrary evidence." Indeed, there are more than a dozen national polls—one of which was conducted by The Los Angeles Times—that have found figures comparable to the Kleck-Gertz study. Even the Clinton Justice Department (through the National Institute of Justice) found there were as many as 1.5 million defensive users of firearms every year. See National Institute of Justice, "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," Research in Brief (May 1997).
Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense with a firearm every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America"—a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig. "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," NIJ Research in Brief (May 1997); The finding of 1.5 million yearly self-defense cases did not sit well with the anti-gun bias of the study’s authors, who attempted to explain why there could not possibly be one and a half million cases of self-defense every year. Nevertheless, the 1.5 million figure is consistent with a mountain of independent surveys showing similar figures. The sponsors of these studies—nearly a dozen—are quite varied, and include anti-gun organizations, news media organizations, governments and commercial polling firms.
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desert-prospector
Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 08:42 pm |
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Diocoles wrote: Not to mention all the rapes and murders lately in the national forests. Kidnapping and god knows what else has befallen some of the innocents just merrily walking in the forest thinking the forest ranger will save them from the big bad wolves.....
F**king rangers want to make me ralph.
I didn't know that carry was illegal in National Forrest? I thought it was only in National Parks. There is a difference.
Here in NM, we carry open in National Forrest and BLM controlled areas (unless posted no carry). Nice that 72% of this state is BLM and National Forrest....
I'm 300 minutes from the Mex border, I ain't going no place without my gun!!
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Grapeshot
Activist Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 27th, 2008 12:58 am |
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Snoopy wrote: I can see the headline now, "Poll says that the public doesnt want guns in National Park"... this poll is geared from the start to reflect one and only one view point by offering three opinions on one side and only one on the other... divide and conquer
On the other hand, only 33% say NO, the rest all say Yes!
Yata hey
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Felid`Maximus
Activist Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Reno, Nevada USA |
| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: Sun Jul 27th, 2008 08:30 pm |
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Orygunner wrote:
We're kickin their butt in spite of their "divide and conquer" tactics on the poll!
...Orygunner...
State laws should apply.
31% /dotRed.gif)
It should not be allowed.
9.4%
Concealed weapons should be allowed in all national parks, regardless of state law.
25%
Concealed weapons and "open carry" should be allowed in all national parks, regardless of state law.
35%
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rodbender
Founder's Club Member
| Joined: | Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 |
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Posted: Sun Jul 27th, 2008 11:57 pm |
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| It may also be noteworthy to state the fact that the reason that Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz were anti gunners, and they decided to do this research not believing an unbelievably high number in another research that it was as high as 1.7 million times. The reason they did not believe it was that they were anti gun and didn't trust the way the other info was collected. So they decided on a "fool proof" way to do the research, thinking it would bring in a much lower number than 1.7 million. The research method they used has not been disputed even once.
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deepdiver
Activist Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Missouri USA |
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Posted: Mon Jul 28th, 2008 04:18 pm |
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2bfree wrote:
SNIP - GOOD STUFF
Welcome to OCDO and excellent first post!
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Huck
Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 28th, 2008 05:45 pm |
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| 'Nuff said... Attached Image (viewed 35 times):
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Grapeshot
Activist Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 12:23 am |
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2bfree - Excellant first post -welcome aboard.
Add to your profile and let us know at least in what state you reside.
Yata hey
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KBCraig
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| Joined: | Tue Aug 7th, 2007 |
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 04:20 am |
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rodbender wrote: It may also be noteworthy to state the fact that the reason that Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz were anti gunners, and they decided to do this research not believing an unbelievably high number in another research that it was as high as 1.7 million times. The reason they did not believe it was that they were anti gun and didn't trust the way the other info was collected. So they decided on a "fool proof" way to do the research, thinking it would bring in a much lower number than 1.7 million. The research method they used has not been disputed even once.
Oh, it's been disputed, but never disproven. Lots of pseudo-"researchers" claim to disprove it, but their methodology always fails.
Epic fail.
http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/fail-owned-utility-fail.jpg
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rodbender
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 04:29 am |
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I think the numbers have been disputed, not the method they used as unfair.
Extremely epic.
Last edited on Tue Jul 29th, 2008 04:30 am by rodbender
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