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TheEggman
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 12:03 am |
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'Implanted chips' is not really tinfoil hat mentality.
It will start as a voluntary 'for the children' movement. Concerned parents, with all the best intentions will have a chip placed in their newborn at birth. That way, if they ever turn up missing they (or their remains) can be quickly located.
It's common practice now with fingerprint and photo programs sponsored by schools and local police in a lot of places. The only thing missing is the chip.
In the beginning, of course, the chip could be easily removed by any physician when the child becomes of age, is emancipated, or at any time with the parent's permission.
It's only a step or two to legislation that would make removing the chip illegal, like disabling the 'flight recorder' in your own car.
Perhaps chips for child molesters, then all felons, then the military, then ...
Remember, rights are generally not lost overnight, they slowly erode, one 'reasonable' step at a time.
Last edited on Tue Feb 12th, 2008 12:03 am by TheEggman
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sccrref
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 12:14 am |
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Tomahawk wrote: LEO 229 wrote: The day they require me to implant a chip into my body is the day I will join you.
QFT
QFT????? I must be stupid or something.
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ama-gi
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 04:48 am |
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LEO 229 wrote: ama-gi wrote: LEO 229 wrote: The day they require me to implant a chip into my body is the day I will join you.
Your son or daughter will be like, "C'mon dad, what's the big deal? Do you have something to hide? It's being implanted so people can steal your identity and to help fight terrorism."
Not into altering my body.
No tattoos on my forearm and no RFID chips in my body.
I am going to have to pass.
Well, you need to get over that selfish impulse in order to provide public safety. The people have spoken and we all have to follow laws we don't like sometimes in order to live in a nation of laws.
<sarcasm to make a point>
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ama-gi
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 04:48 am |
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| Qft means "quoted for truth" Last edited on Tue Feb 12th, 2008 04:49 am by ama-gi
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ama-gi
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 04:49 am |
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ama-gi wrote: Qft means "quoted for truth"
QFT
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Comp-tech
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 05:37 am |
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TheEggman wrote: 'Implanted chips' is not really tinfoil hat mentality.
It will start as a voluntary 'for the children' movement....
Some can't see the forrest for the trees......
FDA Clears VeriChip for Medical Applications in the United States...
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2004/Oct/1082567.htm
Under-the-skin ID chips move towards U.S. hospitals...
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-5285815.html
Human chips more than skin deep...
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-5319869.html
And, just for you LEO 229....Looks like LEO's might be some of the first ones required to be "chipped"...
By JILL BARTON
Associated Press
April 13, 2004, 4:54 PM EDT
PALM BEACH -- A new computer chip promises to keep police guns from firing if they fall into the wrong hands.
The tiny chip would be implanted in a police officer's hand and would match up with a scanning device inside a handgun. If the officer and gun match, a digital signal unlocks the trigger so it can be fired. But if a child or criminal would get hold of the gun, it would be useless.
The technology is the latest attempt to create a so-called ``smart gun'' and could be marketed to law enforcement agencies within a year, according to Verichip Corp., which has created the microchip.
Verichip president Keith Bolton said that the technology could also improve safety for the military and individual gun owners.
``If you let your mind wander to other potential uses, you can imagine the lives that could be saved,'' he said.
Verichip, which has marketed similar microchips for security and medical purposes, announced Tuesday a partnership with gun maker FN Manufacturing to produce the smart weapons. The companies have developed a prototype and are working to refine its accuracy, Bolton said.
Similar developments are under way at other gun manufacturers and research firms. The New Jersey Institute of Technology and Australian gun maker Metal Storm Ltd. are working on a prototype smart gun that would recognize its owner's individual grip.
``We're at an interesting age where all sorts of science fiction is becoming real technology,'' said Donald Sebastian, NJIT vice president for research and development and director of the project.
The technology could also eventually have an even bigger impact on the illegal gun trade, Sebastian said.
The FBI estimated that 67 percent of the 16,204 murders in 2002 were committed with firearms.
``You have a long-term benefit of making it much more difficult for a handgun to have any value to anyone other than the original owner,'' Sebastian said.
But until the smart-gun technology is repeatedly proved to be reliable, some law enforcement authorities remain leery.
The scanning device could malfunction, the officer's hand with the computer chip could be smashed during a fight or an officer might need to use a partner's gun, said West Palm Beach police training Sgt. William Sandman.
``We have power outages, computers crash. Would you risk your life knowing all those things that could go wrong?'' Sandman said.
Verichip's Bolton said those concerns already are being addressed. He said the guns can be designed to work for an officer, his partner and a supervisor. Departments could set routines where the scanning devices in guns could be checked before every shift.
The chip needs no battery or power source. It works much like those that have been implanted in pets over the past decade so they can be identified if they get lost. Verichip, a subsidiary of the Palm Beach-based technology firm Applied Digital Solutions, developed a ``more intelligent'' version two years ago for humans and estimates that about 900 people worldwide have been implanted with them.
The chips can be used instead of security key cards at office buildings or to use global positioning satellites to keep track of a relative who might suffer from Alzheimer's. It can store medical information that emergency rooms could read or financial and identification information to prevent fraud.
The chip, about the size of a grain of rice, is inserted into an arm or hand with a syringe _ much like a shot is given.
Bolton said the company has seen no medical complications and that the technology will only improve with time.
Once the technology is accepted, legislation could follow to encourage the use of smart guns. New Jersey already has passed legislation that will require smart gun technology on all handguns sold _ three years after the state attorney general certifies that smart guns are available in the marketplace.
The National Rifle Association opposes the legislation because of potential problems with smart-gun technology, but gun safety advocates argue that the technology could encourage gun ownership with the newfound sense of security.
``It seems that guns are the only product that haven't followed a path of development that leads to greater safety for the user. The only real change we've seen is to make them more lethal and smaller so they can be more easily concealed,'' said Rob Wilcox, a spokesman for the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence. ``This is one of the steps that hasn't been taken and we think this debate is one that needs to take place.'' ___
On the Net:
Applied Digital Solutions: http://www.adsx.com
FN Manufacturing: http://www.fnmfg.com/
New Jersey Institute of Technology: http://www.njit.edu/
Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence: http://www.bradycenter.org/
National Rifle Association: http://www.nra.org/
Sorry for the long post...I lost the link to the article but had it saved as a ".doc"....
Last edited on Tue Feb 12th, 2008 05:45 am by Comp-tech
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Sage of Seattle
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 05:43 am |
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So, LEO229,
A new computer chip promises to keep police guns from firing if they fall into the wrong hands.
The tiny chip would be implanted in a police officer's hand and would match up with a scanning device inside a handgun. If the officer and gun match, a digital signal unlocks the trigger so it can be fired.
What size furs will you be ordering? 
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TheEggman
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 03:24 pm |
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The tiny chip would be implanted in a police officer's hand and would match up with a scanning device inside a handgun. If the officer and gun match, a digital signal unlocks the trigger so it can be fired. But if a child or criminal would get hold of the gun, it would be useless.
And just how long before 'jamming technology' catches up and the bad guys can turn on a transmitter to render the P.D. firearms useless.
If a 9 year old can defeat digital encryption and DRM systems on CDs/DVDs it won't be long before a well-funded criminal or terrorist enterprise comes up with the 'black box' to make it happen.
Soory - Drifting Off Topic.
Egg
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TheEggman
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 03:24 pm |
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The tiny chip would be implanted in a police officer's hand and would match up with a scanning device inside a handgun. If the officer and gun match, a digital signal unlocks the trigger so it can be fired. But if a child or criminal would get hold of the gun, it would be useless.
And just how long before 'jamming technology' catches up and the bad guys can turn on a transmitter to render the P.D. firearms useless.
If a 9 year old can defeat digital encryption and DRM systems on CDs/DVDs it won't be long before a well-funded criminal or terrorist enterprise comes up with the 'black box' to make it happen.
Sorry - Drifting Off Topic.
Egg
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sv_libertarian
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 04:28 pm |
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I wonder how long it will be until we have to have devices in our vehicles that allow our movements to be tracked real time... I could see it started with boaters "for our safety" of course... or for "homeland security"
This whole thing is creepy.
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LEO 229
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 05:48 pm |
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Sage of Seattle wrote: So, LEO229,
A new computer chip promises to keep police guns from firing if they fall into the wrong hands.
The tiny chip would be implanted in a police officer's hand and would match up with a scanning device inside a handgun. If the officer and gun match, a digital signal unlocks the trigger so it can be fired.
What size furs will you be ordering?
Fur might be murder.. but if feels so good!!! 
I have seen rings on the shooter's hand too that did the same thing. This is a rotten idea since you have to hope like hell it will not have any radio interference and the batteries are good when you go to shoot. 
We all know that electronic devices will fail at some point. I would hate that time to be when I am about to shoot to save a life.
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bohdi
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 06:19 pm |
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sv_libertarian wrote: I wonder how long it will be until we have to have devices in our vehicles that allow our movements to be tracked real time... I could see it started with boaters "for our safety" of course... or for "homeland security"
This whole thing is creepy.
Haven't done much reading on how rental car agencies were using "black boxes" in the cars to record drivers who were speeding and sending them "tickets" have you...no I'm not making that up.
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Comp-tech
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 09:58 pm |
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sv_libertarian wrote: I wonder how long it will be until we have to have devices in our vehicles that allow our movements to be tracked real time... I could see it started with boaters "for our safety" of course... or for "homeland security"
This whole thing is creepy.
"Big rigs" have had data recorders for over 15 years and most now have gps tracking.....most autos made within the last 4-5 years have at least some form of data recorder and more than you might think have gps tracking as well.
Think along the lines of "OnStar" or "LoJack"......this sort of crap will likely be made mandatory sooner or later.
Last edited on Tue Feb 12th, 2008 09:59 pm by Comp-tech
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IdahoCorsair
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 10:15 pm |
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Boise has a serious rash of traffic cams pointed in all four directions down at drivers' faces at over half of the intersections now. Can't see any justification for four cams even if it was for 'traffic control' issues.
Nampa (just west of Boise) is now testing a newer technology that scans all License plates the camera "sees", whether driving the same way, opposing or even parked at angles along-side the street... the computer then logs the plate #s to cross reference later with people's testimonies of alleged where-abouts. So if a criminal says he was driving at 1st and Main at midnight in Boise, and the Nampa PD's camera caught his car parked in front of a murder victims house (at elm and 9th) 2 minutes before a 911 call.... so now, they know where you frequent etc at least in the database.
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Comp-tech
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 10:39 pm |
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LEO 229 wrote:
This is a rotten idea since you have to hope like hell it will not have any radio interference and the batteries are good when you go to shoot.
We all know that electronic devices will fail at some point. I would hate that time to be when I am about to shoot to save a life.
I agree...stupid idea...
"We" know this because we have common sense....but, since when has that had an influence on legislature?
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Sage of Seattle
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 12:09 am |
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IdahoCorsair wrote:
Boise has a serious rash of traffic cams pointed in all four directions down at drivers' faces at over half of the intersections now. Can't see any justification for four cams even if it was for 'traffic control' issues.
Nampa (just west of Boise) is now testing a newer technology that scans all License plates the camera "sees", whether driving the same way, opposing or even parked at angles along-side the street... the computer then logs the plate #s to cross reference later with people's testimonies of alleged where-abouts. So if a criminal says he was driving at 1st and Main at midnight in Boise, and the Nampa PD's camera caught his car parked in front of a murder victims house (at elm and 9th) 2 minutes before a 911 call.... so now, they know where you frequent etc at least in the database.
It's exceedingly petty, I know, but I have a habit of making obscene gestures at the cameras just out of principle.
I wonder how crimes were ever solved before cameras/global tracking/implanted chips?
And since England has had the cameras in place for, what... over fifteen years or something like that... maybe we in the US can use those numbers to show the cost effectiveness of them. In other words, that the cost of the cameras outweigh their supposed benefits.
On the other hand, we all have access to published statistics about the usefulness of automated ticket cameras and speed limit guidelines and that they do nothing to solve the problems they were initially said they'd do, so why would this be any different? Guess I just answered my own question.
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AbNo
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 08:04 am |
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Oh gods.... Now I get to flex my comm geek muscle. 
As far as the "chip" involved, it would be an RFID chip, since those don't need to be powered.
RFID chips can be erased with a burst of microwave energy. I'd say 10-15 seconds should suffice, but I don't have any evidence to support that length of time.
It doesn't really "erase" the RFID chip, so much as overload it with induced current, and cook it like a CD in a microwave oven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_frequency_induction
RFID chips are powered by induction, but at very low amperage. An 800-watt microwave in the US produces about 533.33...... amps of power. Some of it is lost in the conversion to microwaves, of course, but it's still more than the power amount the chip is used to.
Of course, "cooking" an implanted chip in this way would have about the same effect as grabbing a transmitting CB antenna. Quite noticable.
With passive RFID's range of ~10cm, however, a chipped bracelet would be much more practical, cheaper, and easier to issue.
There might be a bit of crackling, but again, I have nothing to base this on.
Unless someone wants to send me a handful of RFID chips to test. It'll be like The Box 'o Truth.
Jamming an RFID chip can be done with a handful of parts scavenged out of a cheap stereo, and an antenna made out of a coke can. It wouldn't have much range, but if you know the frequency you are looking for, you can send out a radio signal of a similar frequency(wavelength), at relatively low power, and you've disabled all/most of the RFID chips in a given area.
Or permanently activated them, depending on their programming.
The frequency is EASILY obtained from either the item's patent information, marketing information, UL listing, or a spectrum analyzer.
Though, on a more serious note, jamming and disabling aside, reading and copying an RFID tag is not exactly rocket science.
Hells, look at the integrated garage-door openers that come in some cars. You hold the button down on your garage door opener's factory remote, press the record button on your car's opener, and presto! You've just copied a coded radio signal.
The same (or very similar technology) can be used to copy the "activation" signal for a LEO's handgun from his RFID chip bracelet, copied, and rebroadcast at any point and time.
It should be noted that I pulled most of this out of my sub-small-of-back (sub-SOB) holster, it's 3 am, and I'm tired. It's pretty close to fact, but I pretty much just made it up based on what I know.
In short, it's more or less all speculation, but it's educated speculation. If anyone finds any out-right untruths in there, feel free to correct me. Last edited on Wed Feb 13th, 2008 08:11 am by AbNo
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Comp-tech
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 09:32 am |
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AbNo wrote: Oh gods.... Now I get to flex my comm geek muscle. ...
In short, it's more or less all speculation, but it's educated speculation. If anyone finds any out-right untruths in there, feel free to correct me.
Everything you said is true...to a point. Everything you stated would apply to the "tags" that are put into products like clothes and other comsumer products but, with all due respect intended, I think the technology has "outgrown" your explanations....at least to some degree.
Here is a "commercial" chip that boasts a 40 ft range for example.... http://www.motorola.com/business/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=935ce90e3ae95110VgnVCM1000008406b00aRCRD
What concerns me, and many others, are the situations like cited below....
RFID for people... http://www.verichipcorp.com/
VeriChip Corp protects more than 1 million infants in 2007...
http://www.digitalangel.com/press_details.aspx?F=20080212.htm
Another VeriChip subsidiary... http://www.xmark.com/
And one of the the worst scenarios, IMHO....
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32572
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42058
Notice the dates on the two above articles....one would think they'd likely have it "perfected" by now.
I'd also tend to think that an implanted chip would be harder to "nuke" in the microwave... 
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LEO 229
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 12:00 pm |
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I am not sure how many people are going to nuke their body in a microwave..
Those that would go to this extreme will likely fight tooth and nail to not get it implanted to start with.
I will not worry about the government trying to lo-jack me until the time comes.
I am confident that this would never happen as the people wold never stand for it. Do a count here and see how many would really want it or allow it. ZERO!! Look at how hard it is just to try and get a national ID card...!!!
This board is open carry related and this thread has completely shifted to big brother lo-jacking us. We need to stay on track.
How many people in here would really want a gun that required electronics to operate for them to be authorized to actually shoot the gun...?? I for one would NOT!!
I hope nobody here is buying stock in those companies because they are going to sink!!
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Tomahawk
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 01:41 pm |
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LEO 229 wrote: How many people in here would really want a gun that required electronics to operate for them to be authorized to actually shoot the gun...?? I for one would NOT!!
It's an example of using technology to take something that works fine and making it more complicated than it needs to be, with no increase in performance to offset the greater risk of failure. It's a terrible idea, unless your objective is to assert control over those who carry these devices.
I don't know if it's a human thing or just the West or just the U.S., but people seem to have a fetish for high tech gadgets. I for one don't want a complicated firearm with more failure modes than an old fashioned one like a 1911 or a revolver, and the same goes for my car.
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