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SFDoc
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 05:33 am |
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DreQo wrote: snipped:  Why didn't someone throw a chair at this guy?
For the past 30 years or more, the sheep have been led to the slaughter by being told over and over again when confronted with rape, robbery, murder, kidnapping, taken hostage, home invasion, or whatever you’re worst nightmare is, COMPLY, COMPLY, COMPLY, and let the professionals handle it. Even on the cop shows that feature citizens fighting back, someone almost always says you shouldn’t fight back or you shouldn’t take justice in your hands. This bs has been preached to the masses for so long that is all they know.
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Doug Huffman
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 12:36 pm |
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SFDoc wrote: DreQo wrote: snipped: Why didn't someone throw a chair at this guy?
For the past 30 years or more, the sheep have been led to the slaughter by being told over and over again when confronted with rape, robbery, murder, kidnapping, taken hostage, home invasion, or whatever you’re worst nightmare is, COMPLY, COMPLY, COMPLY, and let the professionals handle it. Even on the cop shows that feature citizens fighting back, someone almost always says you shouldn’t fight back or you shouldn’t take justice in your hands. This bs has been preached to the masses for so long that is all they know.
For the past 30 years or more, the sheep have been led to the slaughter by being told over and over again when confronted with rape, robbery, murder, kidnapping, taken hostage, home invasion, or WTC 9/11/01, COMPLY, COMPLY, COMPLY, and let the professionals handle it.
In this era of 'professional nail technicians' et cetera, does no one consider the significance of a claim of professionalism? How about 'credentialism' or 'authoritarianism' or the anathema of 'statism'? Either we are equal or we are not.
Even here 'elite' is a curse except when the epithet is applied to your favorite 'ox' or 'team' or 'profession.'
Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth.
Last edited on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 12:36 pm by Doug Huffman
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imperialism2024
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 06:40 pm |
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Absolutely ridiculous. Now my question is how the school faired in its "test". It's kind of suspicious that the articles don't mention how well security performed...
It's also sickening that no one, especially when lined up against a wall, tried to rush him or anything. From high school through the present, I always carry a knife with me... for opening boxes, of course, but if need be, I can at least make an effort to protect myself and others. Even without one, I'd expect someone to try to disarm him. I'd like to think that it's a normal human reaction to try to fight back... especially if you've already acknowledged that you're "ready to die." If you know you're going to die, what's the downside to going for a long shot?
I also take issue with schools' increasing persistance on students' signing up for text message alerts. I'd like the schools to at least have to get a warrant to get my mobile number... make it a little harder to track me. I dislike the idea of getting instructions on how to postpone my slaughter, as well. Oh, and knowing that my tuition money is being wasted on this adds to my frustration.
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Doug Huffman
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 07:28 pm |
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I sat in church today and agonized at being unarmed.
A Reading was from Ephesians, "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what such people do secretly; but everything exposed by the light becomes visible..." I heard this in light of the CC/OC/No-C controversy.
I hate the thought of having to knock my wife aside (she insists on sitting next to the aisle) and unarmed rush a BG when the shot would be so easy - range and background.
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DoubleR
Activist Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 07:35 pm |
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Here are some pieces of info from the college in reference to the "Event"...
Chancellor offers assistance from Counseling and Testing Center
ECSU tests emergency preparedness plan
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lockman
State Researcher
| Joined: | Sat Aug 19th, 2006 |
| Location: | Elgin, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 638 |
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 07:48 pm |
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Doug, Is OC prohibited in churches in the Badger State? Or part of the school zone hodge podge?
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XD40coyote
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 02:33 am |
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I have been giving much thought to the sheeple indoctrination thing the last few days, and have come to the conclusion that sadly I am a product of it and it is DAMN HARD to rise above such brainwashing. My parents even drilled it into me by scaring me into not fighting back against bullies. I am 35 years old. In high school there was a seminar thing for girls on rape, nowhere did they say "get daddy's gun and shoot the rapist" LOL, in college it was "give the robber your money and don't antagonize them", instead I got a big dog and never had to worry about a robber. But never once was it stated " if only we had concealed carry( or ANY carry), then if some guy tries to rob you, you could shoot him in fear for your life". Everything around me was "guns are bad" anyway.
Now granted, girls tend to be taught to not fight, to be nice and caring and lovey , and such girls grow into women who don't/won't fight even if they lose the sugar and spice part of being all nice and lovey dovey. I am an aberration! Not only am I not one to pick a fight, but I stayed a nice lovey dovey person and do not engage in ritual bitchiness like so many women do!
It is a wrenching thing here, one side of me fighting with another side, like some saint fighting the wild animal. One side of me says to curl up and take abuse, the other says NO WAY.
At least I know that the one side is the brainwashed sheeple, so that I can better fight it. Most people don't use the brain they were born with.
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Doug Huffman
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 03:57 am |
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lockman wrote: Doug, Is OC prohibited in churches in the Badger State? Or part of the school zone hodge podge?
No, open carry per se is not mentioned in Wisc. Statutes. There are prohibited places but not churches that I know. The root problem is the extra legal harassment promised and occasionally demonstrated by local law enforcement with DC and 'inciting' charges.
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SFDoc
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 12:46 am |
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Clipped from: ECSU tests emergency preparedness plan:
Less than 15 minutes later, the scenario ended and the intruder, Mr. Williams was escorted away from the building by his Campus Police peers.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Cho kill 32 and wound 17 in about half that time??
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imperialism2024
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 04:17 am |
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SFDoc wrote: Clipped from: ECSU tests emergency preparedness plan:
Less than 15 minutes later, the scenario ended and the intruder, Mr. Williams was escorted away from the building by his Campus Police peers.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Cho kill 32 and wound 17 in about half that time??
But... but... the students were alerted on their cell phones! You stupid redneck gun nuts don't understand that if you show the gunman your text message alert on your cell phone, he won't shoot you because he'll realize his plan was foiled.
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SFDoc
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 12:01 am |
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imperialism2024 wrote: SFDoc wrote: Clipped from: ECSU tests emergency preparedness plan:
Less than 15 minutes later, the scenario ended and the intruder, Mr. Williams was escorted away from the building by his Campus Police peers.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Cho kill 32 and wound 17 in about half that time??
But... but... the students were alerted on their cell phones! You stupid redneck gun nuts don't understand that if you show the gunman your text message alert on your cell phone, he won't shoot you because he'll realize his plan was foiled.
My bad, forgot that the word will save us and set us free. HOWEVER, did anyone make sure the BGs got that memo??????????
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imperialism2024
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 04:37 am |
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SFDoc wrote: imperialism2024 wrote: SFDoc wrote: Clipped from: ECSU tests emergency preparedness plan:
Less than 15 minutes later, the scenario ended and the intruder, Mr. Williams was escorted away from the building by his Campus Police peers.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Cho kill 32 and wound 17 in about half that time??
But... but... the students were alerted on their cell phones! You stupid redneck gun nuts don't understand that if you show the gunman your text message alert on your cell phone, he won't shoot you because he'll realize his plan was foiled.
My bad, forgot that the word will save us and set us free. HOWEVER, did anyone make sure the BGs got that memo??????????
...the BGs don't give out their personal information...
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AbNo
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 10:28 am |
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Dead gunman, and a LONG daamn legal battle.
Though it does mention, in passing, that it was a "red plastic pistol".
You know, just like you can do with this...
http://www.lauerweaponry.com/duracoatcolors.cfm?colortype=stock&Category=220
Or this....
One of these is a real gun. Note the safe blue coloring.
(So is the other)
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Toad
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Jun 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 289 |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 04:10 pm |
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I don't remember a hostage situation in any of the recent attacks in US schools. The criminal came in and just started murdering with out delay. So what exactly do they think they are training for? They are just making it more obvious that they are not capable of dealing with a fast acting mass murder situation that is becoming the common method used. Law enforcement will never be able to stop one before it is over and the body count is already high. When will the public at large wake up and say 'hay you people don't have a chance of stopping a Cho type of situation so from now on we will take of our own all of your laws to the contrary are now void'.
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Toad
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Jun 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 289 |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 04:11 pm |
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| Double Tap...sorry Last edited on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 04:13 pm by Toad
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imperialism2024
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 05:08 pm |
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Toad wrote: I don't remember a hostage situation in any of the recent attacks in US schools. The criminal came in and just started murdering with out delay. So what exactly do they think they are training for? They are just making it more obvious that they are not capable of dealing with a fast acting mass murder situation that is becoming the common method used. Law enforcement will never be able to stop one before it is over and the body count is already high. When will the public at large wake up and say 'hay you people don't have a chance of stopping a Cho type of situation so from now on we will take of our own all of your laws to the contrary are now void'.
I think you nailed it there. They're planning for the situations in which unarmed students have some chance of survival beyond ammo capacity because they need to look like they're doing something... anything... and the sh**ple will buy it. Now they can say, "well, no armed student could prevent a hostage situation, and they would just make it worse!" and so on...
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deepdiver
Activist Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Missouri USA |
| Posts: | 4629 |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 05:23 pm |
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imperialism2024 wrote: Toad wrote: I don't remember a hostage situation in any of the recent attacks in US schools. The criminal came in and just started murdering with out delay. So what exactly do they think they are training for? They are just making it more obvious that they are not capable of dealing with a fast acting mass murder situation that is becoming the common method used. Law enforcement will never be able to stop one before it is over and the body count is already high. When will the public at large wake up and say 'hay you people don't have a chance of stopping a Cho type of situation so from now on we will take of our own all of your laws to the contrary are now void'.
I think you nailed it there. They're planning for the situations in which unarmed students have some chance of survival beyond ammo capacity because they need to look like they're doing something... anything... and the sh**ple will buy it. Now they can say, "well, no armed student could prevent a hostage situation, and they would just make it worse!" and so on...
You guys are right on track. A hostage situation, especially one where the BG is holding a hostage against his own body with a weapon to the hostage's head is a MUCH different shoot scenario than someone barging into a room and opening fire. In the first, not only is it likely a damn hard shot given the stress of the moment but the intent is not clear either. In the scenario we keep seeing playing out with an active shooter barging into a room, there is no ambiguity of intent and since everyone else will be running away from the BG, as long as you are clear of the fleeing victims you most likely have a clear shot.
I had not thought through this to the point that both of you did as to, on top of everything else, how unrealistic and unlike the real situations we have seen, this drill scenario really was.
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imperialism2024
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 06:17 pm |
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deepdiver wrote: ...how unrealistic and unlike the real situations we have seen, this drill scenario really was.
Yeah... now how would a suicidal-active-shooter drill go?
*Campus PD cowboy opens door to lecture hall and sweeps gun through room firing blanks, reloading several times as students try to take cover behind plywood and air*
CPD: Well, if I were real, you'd all be dead right now
*60 seconds after he barges in, the planned "security" shows up early and takes him away*
Not very comforting, eh? 
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SFDoc
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 06:37 pm |
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deepdiver wrote: imperialism2024 wrote: Toad wrote: I don't remember a hostage situation in any of the recent attacks in US schools. The criminal came in and just started murdering with out delay. So what exactly do they think they are training for? They are just making it more obvious that they are not capable of dealing with a fast acting mass murder situation that is becoming the common method used. Law enforcement will never be able to stop one before it is over and the body count is already high. When will the public at large wake up and say 'hay you people don't have a chance of stopping a Cho type of situation so from now on we will take of our own all of your laws to the contrary are now void'.
I think you nailed it there. They're planning for the situations in which unarmed students have some chance of survival beyond ammo capacity because they need to look like they're doing something... anything... and the sh**ple will buy it. Now they can say, "well, no armed student could prevent a hostage situation, and they would just make it worse!" and so on...
You guys are right on track. A hostage situation, especially one where the BG is holding a hostage against his own body with a weapon to the hostage's head is a MUCH different shoot scenario than someone barging into a room and opening fire. In the first, not only is it likely a damn hard shot given the stress of the moment but the intent is not clear either. In the scenario we keep seeing playing out with an active shooter barging into a room, there is no ambiguity of intent and since everyone else will be running away from the BG, as long as you are clear of the fleeing victims you most likely have a clear shot.
I had not thought through this to the point that both of you did as to, on top of everything else, how unrealistic and unlike the real situations we have seen, this drill scenario really was.
After the Lobby Day at the GA, and the lies I heard about gun free zones making schools safer, I started looking for news articles on gun free zone shootings. From what I’ve found so far, from Nov. 1994 to Feb. 2008 there have been 134 armed attacks on public, private schools, colleges and universities. Of that, I’ve only found 3 cases where hostages were taken. I’m guessing there are others, just haven’t found them, yet.
May 26, 1994 Union Ky. Boone County, Larry A Ryle High School: Clay Shrout kills his mother, father, and two younger sisters before taking 15 hostages in a trigonometry classroom.
March 3, 2006 Greenwood, Indiana, Center Grove High School: 4 armed students: 3 15-year-old boys and 1 16-year-old boy were arrested for attempting to take several students hostage.
Sept. 28, 2007 Oroville California, Greg Wright, 17, held three girls hostage at Las Plumas High School for nearly an hour after releasing twenty-seven other students and an instructor in a band room. The gunman allegedly fired numerous gunshots through the ceilings while the three girls were in his custody. When police arrived, the gunman peacefully surrendered
As of late, I’ve been thinking about adding another list of incidents where authorities have held students hostage (for their own safety of course) during lock downs and when police hold the students as hostages during their training exercises. I’m guessing that the authorities have taken more students hostage than the criminals.
Last edited on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 06:39 pm by SFDoc
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UTOC-45-44
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Morgan, Utah USA |
| Posts: | 2582 |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 06:45 pm |
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Toad wrote: Double Tap...sorry
2nd that.
I would not have had ANY problem to defend myself and the class here in Utah.
I am 100% positive that the AG would have been on mine or anybody elses side that would have drawn down on the "BG in disguise" and even after a 2tap. Especially after an unfortunate incident like Trolley Square.
TJ
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