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DrMark
Lone Star Veteran
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Posted: Thu Jul 16th, 2009 05:24 pm |
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oldsoldier96 wrote: My "federal permit" is covered as a retired federal agent and was issued by the DOD.
it should grant me the right to carry carry county wide, but as many law enforcement agencies are not farmiliar with this type of permit I have had to go to court on several occasions to get my weapon back. so i got a nys permit as i live in nys it has made the process of dealing with nys police agencies easier.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=24887&forum_id=40&jump_to=412212#p412212
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WheelGun
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 16th, 2009 05:24 pm |
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| Oops double post. Last edited on Thu Jul 16th, 2009 05:28 pm by WheelGun
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WheelGun
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 16th, 2009 05:27 pm |
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DT4E31 wrote: I think it should be obvious by now that this thread was begun by a troll who knows nothing about nothing...
I DONT THINK YOU SHOULD HASSEL HIM LIKE THAT!!!!!!!!!!
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RugerRedhawk
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Posted: Tue Jul 21st, 2009 02:49 pm |
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| I live in Broome County. When issued my permit, it has a restriction for hunting/target practice only on it. When I received my permit I recieved a letter along with it from the Broome County sheriff's office explaining that when on my way to or from hunting or target shooting was the only time I could carry my handgun. It also specifically said that when carrying I MUST carry the gun openly, and am prohibited from concealing. I have gone to diners and into stores before with my .44 mag or .357 exposed on my hip. If this is in violation of NY state law I would be very surprised.
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redlegagent
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Posted: Tue Jul 21st, 2009 10:30 pm |
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You are misinterpreting local law enforcement's choice to enforce or not. You have a restricted permit. Under NYS DEC regulations - you must have your hunting firearm visable - i.e. not concealed. This, by the way, only applys to you being in the woods - not in your car. You are not licensed to have a loaded weapon in your car because you are restricted. As for going into diners etc., you are in violation of NYS penal law 400.00 but if the rural police don't care - oh well. I would suggest you not try it in another county or hope the DEC or state police don't stop you because they will cite you. What you need to do is petition the judge to remove your restrictions so you can carry concealed or in your vehicle.  Last edited on Tue Jul 21st, 2009 10:31 pm by redlegagent
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RugerRedhawk
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Posted: Wed Jul 22nd, 2009 02:35 am |
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| I will continue to do as the law enforcement has instructed me to do. I would think that broome county would be in quite a bit of trouble if they were telling people to specifically break state law by telling them that they HAVE TO carry openly when carrying in public. I will contact the sheriff's office to try to clear this up, but for now I will continue to go by the advice provided to me with my permit.
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DT4E31
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Posted: Wed Jul 22nd, 2009 01:56 pm |
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Going into diners etc open carry in NYS violates Art.265 Criminal Weapons Possession, unless you have a valid NY CARRY permit (not many of those) Most of those are for work/secuirty and then its to and from place of employment with no side trips. Same generally applies to target shooting, to and from the range with no side trips.
If your local cops say its okay, well its really there internal policy, who is to say a Trooper sees your gun and takes police action. I don't think you would get arrested (depends on the cop) but I would guess your firearm would be confiscated and left sitting in the property section for quite some time.
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DT4E31
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Posted: Wed Jul 22nd, 2009 02:01 pm |
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WheelGun wrote: DT4E31 wrote: I think it should be obvious by now that this thread was begun by a troll who knows nothing about nothing...
I DONT THINK YOU SHOULD HASSEL HIM LIKE THAT!!!!!!!!!!
Why not? Its not hassling someone when you speak the truth. All the information is pure b/s, and posters/readers (especially from out of state) should now that and realize the guy is just talking crap. If that is "hassling " I don't know what to tell you. The guy is a "troll". Which is internet slang for someone who follows a thread, and posts ridiculous nonsense with the intent to mislead or otherwise disrupt the thread.
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redlegagent
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Posted: Wed Jul 22nd, 2009 02:28 pm |
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| Pistol permits are issued at the local - i.e. local judge - level. The issuing authority has the right to limit or amend the permit as they see fit. Because of this, there is wide descrepancy among the counties as far as restrictions. Some counties are easier than others to get permits etc. Like I said, if your county chooses to ignore enforcement, that's their choice. Just keep in mind it doesn't extend beyond the county line where others may tow the line if they have a stricter judge. Your permit authorizes you to carry your pistol at the range or while hunting - period. You are not authorized to carry it in any other capacity and are required by law to transport it properly - unloaded with ammo separate. If you get caught with a loaded pistol in your car saying - I'm on my way to/from hunting or the range, you may be subject to confiscation or just a warning depending on who stops you and the jurisdiction's attitude towards carry.
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RugerRedhawk
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Posted: Wed Jul 22nd, 2009 02:31 pm |
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My permit says "license to carry pistol". Also from article 265:
a. Sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05, 265.10, 265.11, 265.12, 265.13, 265.15 and 270.05 shall not apply to:
3. Possession of a pistol or revolver by a person to whom a license therefor has been issued as provided under section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter; provided, that such a license shall not preclude a conviction for the offense defined in subdivision three of section 265.01 of this article.
I am not trying to say that you're wrong, because I very well could be wrong, but from what I see in penal code 265, the law classifying carrying a loaded handgun includes an exemption for anyone with a license to carry a handgun. I see no details specifying whether the gun must be concealed or open. Please direct me further if you have any further details.
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redlegagent
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Posted: Wed Jul 22nd, 2009 03:30 pm |
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NYS Penal Law 400.00 - 2. Types of licenses. A license for gunsmith or dealer in firearms
shall be issued to engage in such business. A license for a pistol or
revolver, other than an assault weapon or a disguised gun, shall be
issued to (a) have and possess in his dwelling by a householder; (b)
have and possess in his place of business by a merchant or storekeeper;
(c) have and carry concealed while so employed by a messenger employed
by a banking institution or express company; (d) have and carry
concealed by a justice of the supreme court in the first or second
judicial departments, or by a judge of the New York city civil court or
the New York city criminal court; (e) have and carry concealed while so
employed by a regular employee of an institution of the state, or of any
county, city, town or village, under control of a commissioner of
correction of the city or any warden, superintendent or head keeper of
any state prison, penitentiary, workhouse, county jail or other
institution for the detention of persons convicted or accused of crime
or held as witnesses in criminal cases, provided that application is
made therefor by such commissioner, warden, superintendent or head
keeper; (f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or
place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the
issuance thereof; and (g) have, possess, collect and carry antique
pistols which are defined as follows: (i) any single shot, muzzle
loading pistol with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar
type of ignition system manufactured in or before l898, which is not
designed for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition;
and (ii) any replica of any pistol described in clause (i) hereof if
such replica--
These are the types of pistol permits in NYS. Your permit falls under section "f". Your permit however has been restricted. I would suggest you familiarized yourself with the law. As there is only one type of permit - concealed with various restriction/types - you'll notice that no where does it say open carry in the descriptions. You have a restricted concealed carry permit - period. Only law enforcement and special permit holders may open carry in NYS. You may only carry your firearm within the realm of your restrictions - hunting/target only - just like it says. I have an unrestricted concealed carry permit and have been licensed for 20 years so I kinda think I know a little about this.
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RugerRedhawk
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Posted: Wed Jul 22nd, 2009 03:59 pm |
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There is definitely some gray area here. There is no reference in any penal law to the restrictions that counties put on the permits. I do see what you're saying about the permit being a permit to 'carry concealed', yet they make no attempt to define what exactly this means. I guess though that if a weapon was being carried unconcealed, they could try to use this, and charge you with a misdemeanor.
15. Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a class A misdemeanor.
Basically, the laws here are a giant mess. Obviously leaving a handgun in a parked vehicle is a bad idea, at the same time to expect somebody to conceal a .44 mag with a 7.5" barrel is ridiculous.
Also if the permit can be tied to a specific 'type' in the penal code, they should use the same name when printing the actual permit. Mine clearly states "license to carry a pistol", which matches none of the types listed in the penal code.
I'll also add that if it is against state law to carry a gun on the hip, the broome county sheriff is really asking for trouble by specifically telling people that they MUST carry openly at all times. This is not specifically talking about hunting, but it specifically said that if you have to stop somewhere while going to or from hunting or target shooting you have to have your weapon showing, and are not allowed to conceal it. Last edited on Wed Jul 22nd, 2009 04:06 pm by RugerRedhawk
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redlegagent
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Posted: Wed Jul 22nd, 2009 08:45 pm |
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Whatever, it's your pistols you risk having confiscated. ALL THE PERMITS SAY "LICENSED TO CARRY" - helloooo it's a carry permit. Mine says the same thing - doink! You must carry your firearms unconcealed because you are RESTRICTED - common sense here - however that is not the same as a license to carry open. I could care less what your hillbilly sherriff says - it doesn't apply outside his jurisdiction. I'm just telling you what NYS law says. This thread is a waste of time. 
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RugerRedhawk
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Posted: Thu Jul 23rd, 2009 02:45 am |
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| Awesome. Sorry if I trust the written word of the 'hillbilly sheriff' over some random guy on an Internet forum. You can try and pretend that this is cut and dry, but clearly after reading the penal code it is not. It makes no attempt to specify a crime for possessing a gun that is not concealed, nor does it define 'concealed'. Perhaps I'll stop by my local state trooper headquarters and see if I can get some answers, because if the sheriff department is advising people to break state law, they should be stopped.
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Stevtrains
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 26th, 2009 10:30 pm |
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| This is all wrong, if you have a type "f" licence it is valid every were but NYC. You cant go to jail for braking the restrictions, but the judge can take your licence. You can go to jail for open carry and probably will at some point. Just cause the Sheriff told you to open carry doesn't mean @#$% as far as all the other departments in the county. But don't take my word for it or anyone on the internet, talk to an attorney.
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RugerRedhawk
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Posted: Mon Jul 27th, 2009 04:20 pm |
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| I do appreciate the info, and will look into it further. This forum is honestly the only place I've ever heard about open carry being illegal. Some coordination needs to take place between state and local law enforcement to ensure that honest citizens doing what they are told are not punished because of misinformation they were given.
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redlegagent
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Posted: Mon Jul 27th, 2009 10:45 pm |
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A type A permit is known as a "premises only" permit. It will look identical to yours but will have typed somewhere on it - usually across the top - restricted to premises only. A type B permit is only for place of business - same thing as above. C,D,E, permits are limited to state/local employees in the function of their job. A type F permit, which 98% of all people get is the general concealed permit. It may be issued with or without restrictions but the majority are "restricted to hunting/target only". Years ago, many were issued without restrictions but the NYS Supreme Court ruled that local judges - as the issuing authority - had a right to impose "reasonable restrictions". There is no "law" to this affect, it is merely accepted jurisprudence so, as was pointed out, you may not go to jail but the "issuing authority" would be notified of the violation and could recind the permit. As I tried to point out before, different county judges have different opinions on the matter. Some are stricter than others and they are the "issuing authority" so they have wide latitude on restrictions. For my own permit, it took a year and I had to interview face to face with the county judge to have my restrictions removed. It's different in each county. The bottom line is this is the law - NYS Penal Law 400.00 - that covers pistol permits. There is no open carry in NYS - period. Because you are restricted, you can not conceal carry but you can't open carry either. You are allowed to have your firearms out in the open while you are at the range or hunting. While you are going to-from the same, you must transport your weapons in accordance with state law - unloaded and separate from ammo. If you get caught with a loaded pistol in your car, it doesn't matter if you are going/coming from the range or hunting - you can be cited. That is the law. Only with an unrestricted permit can you have a loaded pistol in your car or on your person. If you don't believe us, talk to an attorney as was stated.
p.s. - NYS constitution has no clause recognizing the 2nd amendment like other states do which gives them the "right" to impose whatever gun laws they want.
Last edited on Mon Jul 27th, 2009 10:47 pm by redlegagent
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Stevtrains
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 28th, 2009 08:55 am |
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Still wrong If you have a type "f" licence you can carry concealed. Can't go to jail and can't be cited. You didn't brake any law. Here you go-http://www.troopers.state.ny.us/FAQs/Firearms/Permits.cfm
Q - What section of the Penal Law authorizes the placing of restrictions on pistol permits by the issuing authority?
The Penal Law does not specifically authorize the placing of restrictions on pistol permits. However, court decisions have consistently supported the ability of licensing officials to impose these restrictions. Such an imposition is an administrative function of the licensing officer.
Licensees in violation of these restrictions would therefore not be subject to criminal prosecution but would face action being taken by the court of issuance in the form of suspension or possible revocation of the license
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redlegagent
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Posted: Tue Jul 28th, 2009 11:36 am |
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Stevtrains wrote: Still wrong If you have a type "f" licence you can carry concealed. Can't go to jail and can't be cited. You didn't brake any law. Here you go-http://www.troopers.state.ny.us/FAQs/Firearms/Permits.cfm
Q - What section of the Penal Law authorizes the placing of restrictions on pistol permits by the issuing authority?
The Penal Law does not specifically authorize the placing of restrictions on pistol permits. However, court decisions have consistently supported the ability of licensing officials to impose these restrictions. Such an imposition is an administrative function of the licensing officer.
Licensees in violation of these restrictions would therefore not be subject to criminal prosecution but would face action being taken by the court of issuance in the form of suspension or possible revocation of the license
I was already familiar with that link. Unfortunately, the NYS police have absolutely NOTHING to do with issuing pistol permits which are only done at the county level with the county judge being the one and only authority as to what he/she wants to do. As I have tried to patiently explain, the issuing authority - i.e. county judge - has the right to place restrictions. This is accepted by the NYS Appeals Court - Gen/nyslegal.htm#O%27CONNOR%20v.%20SCARPINO, Gen/nyslegal.htm#O%27BRIEN%20,%20v.%20KEEGAN. Violation of permit restrictions is in fact a misdemenor but will usually only result in permit revocation. Now, if you want to get an attorney and argue specifics about the law in your particular county, that's up to you. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that that's the way it is everywhere because it's not. I have personally spoken to my county judge to remove the restrictions on my license and I was just pointing out that they have very wide latitude when it comes to permits in their county and how they want to handle it. Also, like I said, the NYS constitution does NOT recognize the right of the individual to keep and bear arms delegating it to the state assembly to raise a militia for protection. It all boils down to what your judge wants to do as they are the issuing authority. Last edited on Tue Jul 28th, 2009 11:41 am by redlegagent
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RugerRedhawk
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Posted: Tue Jul 28th, 2009 12:55 pm |
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| So technically according to your interpretation of penal code 400 you could be arrested for open carry in the woods while hunting right? I see no exception written there regarding hunting. I understand that this likely wouldn't be enforced, but the technical definitions in this law are not very good.
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