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no carry permit ?
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Posted: Mon Nov 24th, 2008 06:52 am |
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Sunday night at approximately 11:00pm I was leaving the Arbys on Capital Blvd. after dinning there . I get down to the next light and three police cars light me up. I get my drivers licence out and when the officer steps up I informed him that I'm open carrying on my right hip ( I realize that is not required by law but chose to do so for several reasons).
By now there are four cars and they are gathering around. He orders me out of the car , seizes my firearm and puts it in his car. Funny thing my van is in the center lane with two cars to my right and one behind, thus we are shutting down Capital blvd except one lane over an illegal stop.
I then demand to know why I'm being detained and they ask if I was at Arbys. I said yes, I ate there and just left. Why did something happen ? No was the answer someone called because you are carrying a gun and we have had a lot of robberies. I said that's why I'm carrying, it's legal to open carry so on what probable cause I'm I being stopped for. We then argue a bit on the legality of what they are doing and I demand a watch commander come to the scene and every one's information. One officer immediately gave me his card but the others didn't. The officer that took my weapon comes back and ask me to unlock my van, I refused. He asked several times if I have any paper work on the gun. I simply kept answering No paper work is required.
Then Sgt. SKI arrived and asked what he could do for me. (I almost burst out laughing and felt like saying respect the Constitution of the United States, State law and leave me the hell alone when I'm not violating the law). Instead I informed him that the officers have no reasonable articulately suspicion to detain me and had zero probable cause to make this stop. I would like everyone business card and my gun back to be on my way. He was pleasant, ordered the return of my weapon, but said this isn't the wild west and here in Raleigh we investigate 911 calls. We differed on the legality of the stop, but when I mentioned the issue was resolved by the US Supreme Court in Fla. v JL he then said well I'll tell you what anytime I see someone with a gun I would call 911. He then mentioned all the crap about someone could take your gun away and shoot someone, but had to admit that is normally an officer when it occurs. He then mentioned if an officers gun can get taken away, why couldn't yours. How that is even relevant to the stop I don't know. One of his last statements was thank you for your cooperation, if more people carried we wouldn't have these problems. I found that amusing since we were actually arguing over civil rights violations and I wasn't exactly cooperating. Twice I was told to get on the ground and refused answering, why I'm I being detained for legal conduct. The officer even said sir, I'm asking nicely. I just said, the ground is cold and I'm not getting on the ground. You don't have reasonable articulately suspicion so I sure don't need to get on the ground.
My main concern is the officers and even the SGT seem to think that openly carrying a gun is automatically reasonable articulable suspension & probable cause all wrapped up in one. I believe the officers were in the area waiting for me to leave the restaurant to stage a vehicle stop and search my vehicle. I locked it on exiting and refused to unlock it. Obviously someone calling 911 over open carry isn't enough for them to do what they did.
I need to ask for help in filing a Freedom of information act request. I have never done one. Additionally anyone that cares to advise what they would put in the complaint to the Chief's office, internal affairs, the North Carolina Attorney General , and the Civil Rights Division of the US Department of Justice please feel free.
Officers involved in the stop:
CC littlefield # 3242
EE Wegner # 2990
Bk Mccullers Senior officer (no badge number on card)
Watch commander: SGT SKI
Disclaimer: Any earlier complimentary comments I have made in regard to Raleigh, PD are hereby withdrawn. I now view them as any other anti-gun police department and an enemy of the Right to Open carry.
Last edited on Mon Nov 24th, 2008 07:02 am by no carry permit ?
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marshaul
Activist Member
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Posted: Mon Nov 24th, 2008 07:54 am |
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I hope you at least pronounce it "articulable". 
Sounds like you did OK though. I'll leave the FOIA stuff up to someone with more experience.
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Doug Huffman
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Nov 24th, 2008 10:04 am |
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As "a conservative is a liberal that has been mugged", I wonder if a LEO-basher is one who has been accosted by the cops.
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DreQo
State Researcher
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Posted: Mon Nov 24th, 2008 11:50 am |
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Doug Huffman wrote: As "a conservative is a liberal that has been mugged", I wonder if a LEO-basher is one who has been accosted by the cops.
I didn't see any bashing here. He very specifically stated that he had previously complimented this specific police department, however he now feels that they no longer deserve that praise, based on this very specific event during which they screwed the pooch.
Anyway, to the OP, I would definitely suggest getting a lawyer involved in this. They broke the law, and they need to be held accountable.
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Doug Huffman
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Nov 24th, 2008 01:00 pm |
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DreQo wrote: Doug Huffman wrote: As "a conservative is a liberal that has been mugged", I wonder if a LEO-basher is one who has been accosted by the cops.
I didn't see any bashing here. He very specifically stated that he had previously complimented this specific police department, however he now feels that they no longer deserve that praise, based on this very specific event during which they screwed the pooch.
Nor did I.
But there is no standard definition of LEO-bashing and no common understanding of it as "harsh criticism". Any but bland sheep-like acceptance is called 'bashing' by the sycophantic apologists.
How is your accusation of screwing-the-pooch not harsh criticism?
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ItsMyRight2Carry
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Nov 24th, 2008 04:50 pm |
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Maybe you should stop picking his post apart and provide him with the assistance he asked for:
"I need to ask for help in filing a Freedom of information act request. I have never done one. Additionally anyone that cares to advise what they would put in the complaint to the Chief's office, internal affairs, the North Carolina Attorney General , and the Civil Rights Division of the US Department of Justice please feel free."
I believe the purpose of this site and this forum is to become advocates of OC, answer questions related and OC, and to stick together when unlawful, unconstitutional stops, like this, are committed. We're obviously all here for the purpose of preserving our constitutional right to bear arms, so when something like this happens to one of our members, the last thing we need is for someone to begin criticizing another member.
It appears that he has withdrawn any comments that may have been deemed offensive, and directed towards the RPD. I'm sure most of us would have those same feelings had they been placed in the same situation.
Let's try to stay on topic and move past this bantering and help a fellow OC'er out...
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mrbiggles
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Posted: Mon Nov 24th, 2008 06:24 pm |
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Doug Huffman wrote: As "a conservative is a liberal that has been mugged", I wonder if a LEO-basher is one who has been accosted by the cops.
Death Wish 1
Last edited on Mon Nov 24th, 2008 09:59 pm by mrbiggles
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JohnHoliday
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 03:25 am |
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| Thanks for posting this story, I wish there was something I could do to help.
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ItsMyRight2Carry
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 05:06 am |
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I found this at the Dept of Justice website. It may serve as a reference to you. As for the letter, I would first write up exactly everything that happened, while citing specific statutes for each law the LEO's broke. Once you have it written up, it may be worthwhile to make an appointment with an attorney to let him/her review it. As Dreqo stated, your constitutional rights were violated and laws were broken. The first consultation with most attorneys is free, so it may be worthwhile hearing what he/she has to say...
Freedom of Information Act Request Instructions:
http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/04_1.html
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KBCraig
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 08:37 am |
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FOI information for North Carolina is summarized here:
http://www.nfoic.org/north_carolina
The statute:
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_132/GS_132-1.html
Chapter 132.
Public Records.
§ 132‑1. "Public records" defined.
(a) "Public record" or "public records" shall mean all documents, papers, letters, maps, books, photographs, films, sound recordings, magnetic or other tapes, electronic data‑processing records, artifacts, or other documentary material, regardless of physical form or characteristics, made or received pursuant to law or ordinance in connection with the transaction of public business by any agency of North Carolina government or its subdivisions. Agency of North Carolina government or its subdivisions shall mean and include every public office, public officer or official (State or local, elected or appointed), institution, board, commission, bureau, council, department, authority or other unit of government of the State or of any county, unit, special district or other political subdivision of government.
(b) The public records and public information compiled by the agencies of North Carolina government or its subdivisions are the property of the people. Therefore, it is the policy of this State that the people may obtain copies of their public records and public information free or at minimal cost unless otherwise specifically provided by law. As used herein, "minimal cost" shall mean the actual cost of reproducing the public record or public information. (1935, c. 265, s. 1; 1975, c. 787, s. 1; 1995, c. 388, s. 1.)
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stevemis
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 08:15 pm |
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You need to get this request in ASAP if you are looking for 911 and/or radio dispatch logs for the event. This information is routinely purged.
Here's a site that will help generate the request:
http://www.splc.org/foiletter.asp
Make sure to be specific regarding what you are looking for. If it were me, I'd want:
1. Any and all records of any emergency or non-emergency telephone conversation concerning the event.
2. Any and all audio dispatch/radio communications from the event.
3. Any and all records from the Dispatch System of the event.
4. Any and all papers or reports, electronic or otherwise, of the event.
5. Any and all MDT (mobile data terminal) messages, sent and received, of the event.
You'd probably want to send this to their Public Information Officer. I'd send one copy by fax (save the receipt from the fax machine) and another CMRR (Certified Mail Return Receipt).
I've done a lot of open records requests here in NC... feel free to PM if you have any questions.
Steve
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Caveman93
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Posted: Tue Dec 2nd, 2008 09:50 pm |
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| No Carry how is this situation progressing? Did you need anything from any of us local folks to help you out more?
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no carry permit ?
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Posted: Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 08:25 pm |
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Caveman93 wrote: No Carry how is this situation progressing? Did you need anything from any of us local folks to help you out more?
I met with the Internal Affairs Department within 48 hours of the incident and filed a formal taped complaint. They called yesterday ( Tuesday the 2nd of December) and said an investigation has been opened based on my complaint.
I have contacted an attorney that specializes in Constitutional law and depending on the outcome of the complaint may seek Judicial review of the matter. If they admit the stop, seizure of myself and firearm were improper and issue a educational bulletin department wide (explaining FLA v. JL , reasonable articulable suspicion, and the legality of open carry- I will extend my complete and full forgiveness and wish everyone involved a Merry Christmas. This matter will close at that time, if they attempt a white wash we will be pursuing damages through the Federal Court system.
Once the matter concludes I will have more to say and provide a step by step summery of what occurred.
Thank you everyone for your thoughts and help.
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stevemis
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Posted: Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 09:07 pm |
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Perhaps if you read this thread (and/or request the original email from the PD) you will feel differently. I distinctly remembered this thread, but was unsure if it originated here or on packing.org (which is no longer).
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=2839&forum_id=41
"NC Law does permit "open carry" in non-restricted places and as such, it is permitted within Raleigh. I would hope our officers are well-informed, but since we have over 740 sworn officers, I will not make that guarantee. I will venture a guess that if you do decide to "open carry", as an agency we will receive numerous calls from citizens and you will have quite a bit of interaction with our officers. Captain Hardy"
Note this thread was originated in May of 2007.
I say, go get 'em. People remember expensive lessons.
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DreQo
State Researcher
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Posted: Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 09:22 pm |
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| I agree. I believe you should resist the urge to let things settle and just move on. I know how that feels, but you need to remember that they broke the law. If I could break the law, and just send out an e-mail to my buddies in order to avoid punishment, I'd do it all the time. You need to pursue legal action. Good luck in whatever you do.
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no carry permit ?
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Posted: Thu Dec 4th, 2008 01:36 am |
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stevemis wrote: Perhaps if you read this thread (and/or request the original email from the PD) you will feel differently. I distinctly remembered this thread, but was unsure if it originated here or on packing.org (which is no longer).
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=2839&forum_id=41
"NC Law does permit "open carry" in non-restricted places and as such, it is permitted within Raleigh. I would hope our officers are well-informed, but since we have over 740 sworn officers, I will not make that guarantee. I will venture a guess that if you do decide to "open carry", as an agency we will receive numerous calls from citizens and you will have quite a bit of interaction with our officers. Captain Hardy"
Note this thread was originated in May of 2007.
I say, go get 'em. People remember expensive lessons.
Amazing way back in May of 2007 the department was admitting that they have lousy training systems in place. You guys may be right, perhaps they need a lawsuit.
Thanks for the info.
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ItsMyRight2Carry
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Posted: Thu Dec 4th, 2008 01:48 am |
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"I would hope our officers are well-informed, but since we have over 740 sworn officers, I will not make that guarantee."
The captain's never heard of emailing the 740 officers a reminder? Raleigh's PD, Fire and EMS system house a state of the art "model" computerized communications center that doesn't even require a human's voice to communicate where emergencies are across the county.
I know for a fact that each and every county employee associated with law enforcement, EMS and Fire ALL have wake county.gov email addresses.
But then again, what am I thinking, taking 10 minutes to send out an email to remind officers of certain laws would make too much sense.
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stevemis
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Posted: Thu Dec 4th, 2008 03:34 am |
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Sue them. After you've won or settled, invest a couple of bucks in a nice Desert Eagle for open carry. Preferably chrome or gold plated. You'll also want a nice leather holster and a chiropractor on retainer...
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Dragon88
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Posted: Thu Dec 4th, 2008 03:44 am |
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Sucks you have to deal with the legal system, but I'm glad your fighting this one. I think the police need to be reminded of our 2nd Amendment rights now and then.
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SPRINGFIELD_45_ACP
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 5th, 2008 11:00 am |
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I would not back until they admit the ordeal was un-justified or settle with a hefty compensation package along with a lengthy lesson on OPEN CARRY...
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