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jkeith
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 11:18 am |
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Was on the Town of Cary's website looking for some info and came across their firearms page. Look at the rules below that they have posted. Never knew you weren't allowed to conceal carry on public sidewalks.
Firearms within the Town of Cary
We support each person’s right to lawfully own and carry firearms, and we take very seriously our charge to keep our citizens safe.
Here are some firearms facts for our community:
- In North Carolina, “open carry of a firearm” is defined as the act of carrying a firearm in plain view on public property. “Concealed carry of a firearm” is defined as concealed weapons -- especially handguns --which are kept hidden on your person or under your control; doing so requires a special permit from the Sheriff’s Department of the county you live in, which for Cary residents is either Wake County or Chatham County depending on your address. For more on a concealed carry permit, see North Carolina General Statues (NCGS) 14-415.11.
- North Carolina law does not allow the open carry of a firearm at certain events such as public parades, funeral processions, picket lines or demonstrations. For more, see NCGS. 14-277.2.
- The Town of Cary does not allow the open or concealed carry of a weapon while on any public property within our community including on public sidewalks or greenways, in public parks or Town facilities, or in public parking lots. See [url=http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/North%20Carolina/cary_nc/codeofordinances/chapter22offensesandmiscellaneousprovisi?f=templates$fn=altmain-nf.htm$3.0#JD_22-51]Section 22-51(a)[/url] of the Town of Cary Code of Ordinances.
- While visiting a Town of Cary building or park, citizens may lawfully store their firearms inside their locked motor vehicles. We encourage you to keep firearms and other valuables secured and out of sight.
- If a private business or property is not posted prohibiting firearms, then citizens have the right to lawfully carry firearms on the premises. A business or property owner may restrict citizens from carrying weapons on that property by posting the premises with a statement that carrying a weapon concealed or in the open is prohibited. See NCGS 14-415.11 (c).
- Town of Cary Police Officers will carry their badge and identification card at all times when armed with a firearm. If the firearm is being carried in the open, the officer must have his/her badge conspicuously displayed. These rules apply regardless of whether the officer is on duty or in uniform unless the officer is working “undercover”.
- Discharging firearms or other guns is not permitted within Cary. This includes air guns, paintball guns, BB guns or pistols, or any spring gun, pistol, or other similar device that impels with force any projectile, shot or pellet of any kind. See [url=http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/North%20Carolina/cary_nc/codeofordinances/chapter22offensesandmiscellaneousprovisi?f=templates$fn=altmain-nf.htm$3.0#JD_22-52]Section 22-52[/url] of the Town of Cary Code of Ordinances for more.
Resources
To learn more about North Carolina firearms laws, please visit http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA and enter “firearms laws” in the Search section.
To learn more about firearm safety, please visit: http://www.ncgccd.org and enter “gun safety” in the Search section.
Contact:
Lt. Joe Clifton
Town of Cary Police Department
joe.clifton@townofcary.org
(919) 460-4901
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Venator
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| Joined: | Wed Jan 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
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Posted: Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 12:24 pm |
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jkeith wrote: Was on the Town of Cary's website looking for some info and came across their firearms page. Look at the rules below that they have posted. Never knew you weren't allowed to conceal carry on public sidewalks.
Firearms within the Town of Cary
We support each person’s right to lawfully own and carry firearms, and we take very seriously our charge to keep our citizens safe.
Obviously they don't. This statement does not support their ordinance.
Here are some firearms facts for our community:
- In North Carolina, “open carry of a firearm” is defined as the act of carrying a firearm in plain view on public property. “Concealed carry of a firearm” is defined as concealed weapons -- especially handguns --which are kept hidden on your person or under your control; doing so requires a special permit from the Sheriff’s Department of the county you live in, which for Cary residents is either Wake County or Chatham County depending on your address. For more on a concealed carry permit, see North Carolina General Statues (NCGS) 14-415.11.
- North Carolina law does not allow the open carry of a firearm at certain events such as public parades, funeral processions, picket lines or demonstrations. For more, see NCGS. 14-277.2.
- The Town of Cary does not allow the open or concealed carry of a weapon while on any public property within our community including on public sidewalks or greenways, in public parks or Town facilities, or in public parking lots. See [url=http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/North%20Carolina/cary_nc/codeofordinances/chapter22offensesandmiscellaneousprovisi?f=templates$fn=altmain-nf.htm.0#JD_22-51]Section 22-51(a)[/url] of the Town of Cary Code of Ordinances.
- While visiting a Town of Cary building or park, citizens may lawfully store their firearms inside their locked motor vehicles. We encourage you to keep firearms and other valuables secured and out of sight.
- If a private business or property is not posted prohibiting firearms, then citizens have the right to lawfully carry firearms on the premises. A business or property owner may restrict citizens from carrying weapons on that property by posting the premises with a statement that carrying a weapon concealed or in the open is prohibited. See NCGS 14-415.11 (c).
- Town of Cary Police Officers will carry their badge and identification card at all times when armed with a firearm. If the firearm is being carried in the open, the officer must have his/her badge conspicuously displayed. These rules apply regardless of whether the officer is on duty or in uniform unless the officer is working “undercover”.
- Discharging firearms or other guns is not permitted within Cary. This includes air guns, paintball guns, BB guns or pistols, or any spring gun, pistol, or other similar device that impels with force any projectile, shot or pellet of any kind. See [url=http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/North%20Carolina/cary_nc/codeofordinances/chapter22offensesandmiscellaneousprovisi?f=templates$fn=altmain-nf.htm.0#JD_22-52]Section 22-52[/url] of the Town of Cary Code of Ordinances for more.
Resources
To learn more about North Carolina firearms laws, please visit http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA and enter “firearms laws” in the Search section.
To learn more about firearm safety, please visit: http://www.ncgccd.org and enter “gun safety” in the Search section.
Contact:
Lt. Joe Clifton
Town of Cary Police Department
joe.clifton@townofcary.org
(919) 460-4901
???
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thompsongunner06
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Posted: Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 12:51 pm |
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Wow,,looks like you can only OC/CC on your own property. Or is that ILLEGAL too? Looks like someone needs to get charged and fight that on. Open carry is legal and according to the little thing called the 2nd amedment this law is illegal.
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AWDeanSr
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Posted: Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 07:19 pm |
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jkeith wrote:
We support each person’s right to lawfully own and carry firearms, .
Sounds like bovine scatology to me!
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Mr. Glock
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 08:51 pm |
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jkeith wrote: The Town of Cary does not allow the open or concealed carry of a weapon while on any public property within our community including on public sidewalks or greenways, in public parks or Town facilities, or in public parking lots. See [url=http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/North%20Carolina/cary_nc/codeofordinances/chapter22offensesandmiscellaneousprovisi?f=templates$fn=altmain-nf.htm.0#JD_22-51]Section 22-51(a)[/url] of the Town of Cary Code of Ordinances. Okay, but it doesn't state no concealed carry with even a concealed carry permit. You should double check to see if they don't allow with a concealed carry permit as well. It states that you need your county sheriff to issue you a special carry permit to conceal, which I figure this means a NCCHP. If I'm right then there is a loop hole in their ordinance.
Last edited on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 08:53 pm by Mr. Glock
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JDriver1.8t
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 09:35 pm |
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By the order of the listings, we would be led to believe open and concealed carry are not allowed in Cary.
1. You have to get a permit to CC a firearm
2. You can't carry at these types of events:
3. We don't allow any type of carry in Cary on its property
4. If you visit our property, lock your firearm in your car
5. Police carry ID when armed
6. Don't shoot in town. Your nerf gun is illegal to us.
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chiefjason
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 04:15 am |
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They cannot regulate CC except in buildings, parks, and adjacent parking lots, PERIOD!
This is what they are going by.
§ 160A‑189. Firearms.
A city may by ordinance regulate, restrict, or prohibit the discharge of firearms at any time or place within the city except when used in defense of person or property or pursuant to lawful directions of law‑enforcement officers, and may regulate the display of firearms on the streets, sidewalks, alleys, or other public property. Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit a city's authority to take action under Article 36A of Chapter 14 of the General Statutes. (1971, c. 698, s. 1.)
But they are overlooking this. This does not include sidewalks or streets.
4‑415.23. Statewide uniformity.
It is the intent of the General Assembly to prescribe a uniform system for the regulation of legally carrying a concealed handgun. To insure uniformity, no political subdivisions, boards, or agencies of the State nor any county, city, municipality, municipal corporation, town, township, village, nor any department or agency thereof, may enact ordinances, rules, or regulations concerning legally carrying a concealed handgun. A unit of local government may adopt an ordinance to permit the posting of a prohibition against carrying a concealed handgun, in accordance with G.S. 14‑415.11(c), on local government buildings, their appurtenant premises, and parks. (1995, c. 398, s. 1.)
State general preemption statute.
§ 14‑409.40. Statewide uniformity of local regulation.
(f) Nothing contained in this section prohibits municipalities or counties from application of their authority under G.S. 153A‑129, 160A‑189, 14‑269, 14‑269.2, 14‑269.3, 14‑269.4, 14‑277.2, 14‑415.11, 14‑415.23, including prohibiting the possession of firearms in public‑owned buildings, on the grounds or parking areas of those buildings, or in public parks or recreation areas, except nothing in this subsection shall prohibit a person from storing a firearm within a motor vehicle while the vehicle is on these grounds or areas. Nothing contained in this section prohibits municipalities or counties from exercising powers provided by law in declared states of emergency under Article 36A of this Chapter.
Entire uniformity code
herehttp://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-409.40.html
Where would be a good place to get this blatant disrespect for uniformity cleared up. OC would be a tough road, but CC would be a good place to get a start.
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chiefjason
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 04:30 am |
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| Just emailed Mr. Clifton. Wonder what the response will be. I'll post what I get.
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Dreamer
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 07:48 am |
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So I wonder what the City of Cary thinks about those nail guns that roofers use that are powered by those little .22 or .177 caliber blanks? Are THEY illegal too?
What about compressed-air-powered nail guns?
And god forbid that you should be allergic to bee stings, and have to use your EpiPen injector.
Cary DID have ZERO murders in 2006, according to the FBI's UCR.
Of course, the fact that Cary ALSO has some of the highest property values in the state, has one of the highest mean incomes of any city in the state, and makes more political contributions per capita than almost any other city in the state MIGHT have something to do with the low crme rates. The people of Cary have done a LOT of work to keep their community out of the reach of lower-income folks, and they have a VERY aggressive police force that is known to harass folks "passing through" who "don't look like they belong there".
So, if you want to live in a city that is essentially a "gated community", full of rich, elitist, white, over-educated politically connected pseudo-fascists, then Cary might be the place for you...  Last edited on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 07:51 am by Dreamer
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NCjones
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 02:39 am |
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Looks like that basically bans OC.
...and may regulate the display of firearms on the streets, sidewalks, alleys, or other public property.
How else would you walk down the sidewalk OC'ing without "displaying" the gun? By not displaying it it becomes CC.
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chiefjason
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 12:34 pm |
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NCjones wrote:
Looks like that basically bans OC.
...and may regulate the display of firearms on the streets, sidewalks, alleys, or other public property.
How else would you walk down the sidewalk OC'ing without "displaying" the gun? By not displaying it it becomes CC.
They have banned OC on public streets and sidewalks, but look carefully. They are saying they are banning CC on sidewalks. That goes directly against the state uniformity code.
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chiefjason
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 09:34 pm |
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Well, one email did something. I emailed Mr. Clifton yesterday and they pulled the sidewalk provision from the website.
Mr. xxxxxxxx
Thank you for bring this to The Towns attention. To give you an up date the wording has been change on the web site to clear up the sidewalk issue. As for the Greenway it falls under Parks.
Lieutenant Joe Clifton
Professional Standards Division
Cary Police Department
The Town of Cary does not allow the open or concealed carry of a weapon while on any public property within our community including on greenways, in public parks or Town facilities, or in Town-owned parking lots. The ordinance does not allow the open carry of any firearm on public sidewalks or right-of-ways. See Section 22-51(a) of the Town of Cary Code of Ordinances.
http://www.townofcary.org/Departments/Police_Department/Community_Services/Firearms_within_the_Town_of_Cary.htm
Last edited on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 09:39 pm by chiefjason
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JustinW
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 10:28 pm |
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So here's a question/thought for the group. The NC general statute states the following:
§ 160A‑189. Firearms. A city may by ordinance regulate, restrict, or prohibit the discharge of firearms at any time or place within the city except when used in defense of person or property or pursuant to lawful directions of law‑enforcement officers, and may regulate the display of firearms on the streets, sidewalks, alleys, or other public property. Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit a city's authority to take action under Article 36A of Chapter 14 of the General Statutes. (1971, c. 698, s. 1.)
Now the first part states " A city may by ordinance regulate, restrict, or prohibit the discharge of firearms..." but in regards to the display it just states "...may regulate the display of firearms...".
To me this looks like they are preempted/prohibited from banning the display (open carry) of firearms across the board but they may pass ordinances restricting how/when/characteristics of firearms displayed (openly carried) or perhaps how it is carried (i.e. must be holstered or reasonably secured to protect against an AD/ND).
Add to this the NC supreme court case where Chapel Hill (I forget the case name, could someone post it for the group?) was forced to change their laws to allow the carry of standard, typical, military styled firearms but is allowed to prohibit small easily concealable firearms from OC, which is where we get the current length/size limit for CH, and I think Cary's stance/ordinance banning on OC goes against the NC constitution and could be overturned if it went to trial.
What say you OCDO? Agree, Disagree, other thoughts? Anyone have any Cary LEO interactions to confirm/deny that they enforce this ordinance?
Disclaimer: This post is of my own thoughts and is not legal advice. If you get arrested/charged you're on your own.
Last edited on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 10:30 pm by JustinW
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JSlack7851
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 10:34 pm |
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In ohio we have had several communities, municipalities, and political sub-divisions,(parks), make their own laws contrary to (Ohio Revised Code),ORC 9.68, which 'prempts' all local law. Non the less communities, municipalities, and political sub-divisions, will usually use their laws as a deterent. ORC 9.68 offers any challange to its premption over local law with all expenses paid upon proving the communities, municipalities, and political sub-divisions are proven to be in violation. See Clyde vs. OFCC, for example. The City of Cleveland however is another story. Several of their ordinances are still in violation of ORC 9.68 but unlike Clyde, Cleveland has a bigger budget to challange the State law. See
BFA vs.Cleveland
Its just a matter of time.
When they did this: http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=22441
We did this: http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=30355
Now Jim Penn's getting his A$$ kicked in Greensboro, will anyone stick up for him?
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chiefjason
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 11:01 am |
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| Justin, everyone on here will probably agree with you. I do. For some reason it's not been tested in court. I know I can't afford to. I am wondering what the legal definition of display is. I'm going to email Mr. Clifton to thank him for responding. I'm going to work in a question on OC. Just trying to figure out what direction I want to come from. Need to do some research too. The answer only applies to CC, but it's a small step.
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mekender
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 06:02 am |
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chiefjason wrote: Justin, everyone on here will probably agree with you. I do. For some reason it's not been tested in court. I know I can't afford to. I am wondering what the legal definition of display is. I'm going to email Mr. Clifton to thank him for responding. I'm going to work in a question on OC. Just trying to figure out what direction I want to come from. Need to do some research too. The answer only applies to CC, but it's a small step.
I have pondered the same question, in my eyes, displaying something is showing it off, not wearing it on your belt.
I would love to see someone with a good attorney and deep pockets go after that ordinance.
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mrjam2jab
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 10th, 2009 02:18 pm |
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chiefjason wrote:
4‑415.23. Statewide uniformity.
It is the intent of the General Assembly to prescribe a uniform system for the regulation of legally carrying a concealed handgun. To insure uniformity, no political subdivisions, boards, or agencies of the State nor any county, city, municipality, municipal corporation, town, township, village, nor any department or agency thereof, may enact ordinances, rules, or regulations concerning legally carrying a concealed handgun. A unit of local government may adopt an ordinance to permit the posting of a prohibition against carrying a concealed handgun, in accordance with G.S. 14‑415.11(c), on local government buildings, their appurtenant premises, and parks. (1995, c. 398, s. 1.)
State general preemption statute.
§ 14‑409.40. Statewide uniformity of local regulation.
(f) Nothing contained in this section prohibits municipalities or counties from application of their authority under G.S. 153A‑129, 160A‑189, 14‑269, 14‑269.2, 14‑269.3, 14‑269.4, 14‑277.2, 14‑415.11, 14‑415.23, including prohibiting the possession of firearms in public‑owned buildings, on the grounds or parking areas of those buildings, or in public parks or recreation areas, except nothing in this subsection shall prohibit a person from storing a firearm within a motor vehicle while the vehicle is on these grounds or areas. Nothing contained in this section prohibits municipalities or counties from exercising powers provided by law in declared states of emergency under Article 36A of this Chapter.
Entire uniformity code
herehttp://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-409.40.html
Where would be a good place to get this blatant disrespect for uniformity cleared up. OC would be a tough road, but CC would be a good place to get a start.
Wow thats confusing. "Nobody may enact ordinances....but they can enact ordinances here..." So one town may have them but another may not? That sounds uniform...
PA's exemption is much cleaner:
18 Pa.C.S. § 6120: Limitation on the regulation of firearms and ammunition (a) General rule.--No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.
Last edited on Tue Nov 10th, 2009 02:19 pm by mrjam2jab
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NCjones
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Posted: Wed Nov 11th, 2009 03:13 pm |
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Wow thats confusing. "Nobody may enact ordinances....but they can enact ordinances here..." So one town may have them but another may not? That sounds uniform...
Well, thats the thing. The city can do whatever it wants until someone calls them on it and the state makes them change their law/policy.
Sort of like the old saying "It ain't illegal unless you get caught."
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