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Grapeshot
Activist Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 02:46 am |
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deepdiver wrote: When these LEO brass who oppose citizen OC call for a state law requiring all LEOs, on and off duty to carry CC 100% of the time THEN I'll buy their arguments against citizen OC.
ETA: spelling correction
Would not buy into it even in that unlikely event.
Yata hey
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Superlite27
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Jul 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 214 |
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Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 05:17 pm |
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Officials with two Oklahoma law enforcement associations said they don’t like the idea of people openly carrying guns.
The irony of a quote stating "they don’t like the idea of people openly carrying guns"
coming from people openly carrying guns.
Oh, it's a good thing.......for me. NOT YOU.
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FreedomJoyAdventure
Regular Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 15th, 2008 |
| Location: | Austin, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 137 |
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Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 06:12 pm |
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Superlite27 wrote: Officials with two Oklahoma law enforcement associations said they don’t like the idea of people openly carrying guns.
The irony of a quote stating "they don’t like the idea of people openly carrying guns"
coming from people openly carrying guns.
Oh, it's a good thing.......for me. NOT YOU.
ZACTLY. They're the Only Ones in the room professional enough...
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ixtow
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 11:39 pm |
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Mike wrote: While I understand that sometimes it is a tactical advantage to be concealed, sometimes it might be the other way,” he said. "Everybody should have the right to choose.
I find it a little disturbing that people advocating self-defense also often include 'the element of surprise' in their arguments.
What's so self-defense about an ambush? 'The element of surprise' serves no purpose in prevention. Am I sneaking up on people? No, the BGs are the ones doing that. I want to look like an unapealing target. Concealing doesn't do that.
[/soapbox]
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JoeSparky
Centurion Member
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Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 01:39 am |
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ixtow wrote: Mike wrote: While I understand that sometimes it is a tactical advantage to be concealed, sometimes it might be the other way,” he said. "Everybody should have the right to choose.
I find it a little disturbing that people advocating self-defense also often include 'the element of surprise' in their arguments.
What's so self-defense about an ambush? 'The element of surprise' serves no purpose in prevention. Am I sneaking up on people? No, the BGs are the ones doing that. I want to look like an unapealing target. Concealing doesn't do that.
[/soapbox]
Wish I had said it .... Good Job!!!!
JoeSparky
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Donaldo
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Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 04:43 am |
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Just FYI... In the Fox 25 Video Miles Hall Owner of H&H Gun Range ALLOWS his employees to OPEN CARRY in the store. If he was true to his word he should make all his employees conceal their hand guns.
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dlofton
Regular Member
| Joined: | Fri Oct 24th, 2008 |
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 03:53 pm |
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Having been a LEO for 15 years, what I am about to tell you comes from my own personal real life experience, not just what my instructors in the police academy told me.
It is important for the people here to fully appreciate the training processes and the beliefs that instilled in LEO over time. Peace officers are not any different than anyone else. They want to go to work, do a good job, collect a paycheck, and at the end of the day go home to their spouse, kiss the kids, kick the dog, have a cold beer and go to bed. Their job is no different than working at the factory or a hospital or the military. But the training they receive is vastly different than most other professions. The training involves been keenly aware of what is going on around them from a perspective of "it is always better to be judged by twelve than carried by six". This perspective is taught to us on a daily basis. Do whatever you have to do to go home safely to your family because that is how we judge a successful day. It is not about how may people get arrested or how many tickets we write. It is about doing the same thing ever day at the end of the shift...go home alive.
Now, as to how the above paragraph fits into open carrying of firearms. Peace officers are taught from day one at the academy that the person who has the potential to exact the most amount of danger is the person we want to deal with first. This person is the one who has the "proximate capacity" to do the most damage at any one time. A person who has a fireman on their person is the one who our training tells us is the one we should deal with first. To most people on this board this would seem to say that anyone who has a gun displayed openly on their hip, whether or not it is lawfully carried, is target of police. The reality is that this is mostly true. No one left on planet Earth is alive today from the Old West where firearms were only worn without issue. Because of this and the training they receive at the academy, firearms set off some type of alert in our minds as to a perceived danger. I know people view this as unfair when people are openly carrying firearms but it is just a reality that one must face. Most of traditional America is not used to people openly carrying arms. I know this is a hard pill to swallow but it is just true.
I personally do not carry my firearm openly when I am off duty. I don't want to tip my hand so to speak. Something I learned in my military days is not to show your cards. Keep your abilities and mission secret and don't tip off the enemy. It is how you carry yourself you day to day life that makes you a sheep or a wolf...not how you carry your weapon. It is about a mindset, not what you are carrying.
David
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ixtow
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 05:20 pm |
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dlofton wrote: Now, as to how the above paragraph fits into open carrying of firearms. Peace officers are taught from day one at the academy that the person who has the potential to exact the most amount of danger is the person we want to deal with first. This person is the one who has the "proximate capacity" to do the most damage at any one time. A person who has a fireman on their person is the one who our training tells us is the one we should deal with first. To most people on this board this would seem to say that anyone who has a gun displayed openly on their hip, whether or not it is lawfully carried, is target of police. The reality is that this is mostly true. No one left on planet Earth is alive today from the Old West where firearms were only worn without issue. Because of this and the training they receive at the academy, firearms set off some type of alert in our minds as to a perceived danger. I know people view this as unfair when people are openly carrying firearms but it is just a reality that one must face. Most of traditional America is not used to people openly carrying arms. I know this is a hard pill to swallow but it is just true.
By this capacity, what 'threat level' am I for knowing how to build a nuclear weapon?
We have no trouble swallowing this pill. Several people here have experienced it first-hand. It is the prejudice, hate, and ignorange that you've described, which we are attempting to eliminate.
Just because it is incommon, does not make it a bad thing. One who 'bears the capacity' is NOT an actual threat. YOU carry a weapon when on duty. It doesn't make you a threat. The badge or the uniform don't make you into a magically different person, you've described that yourself already.
Having been through the Police Academy myself, I know there really isn't a lot of 'training' with firearms. Most people here have an absolutely HUGE 'advantage' over the people I was in class with, when it comes to demeanor, attitude, and actually hitting what they aim at if/when they need to. The majority of what I experienced at the Academy was just a repeated expresion of hate for the Bill of Rights and an encouragement to be a bully and get away with anything you can. That's why I left, and why I have no interest in being a 'peace officer.'
In an actual crime/tactical situation, you'd be right. But some guy strolling through the mall does not need 'to be dealt with first' because he's not doing anything wrong. In a circumstance where there is no crime, there is no determinable threat either.
I 'bear the capacity' to drive my car through a bunch of kids at a bus stop. That certainly wouldn't be 'normal' behavior either. But you can't tell what I might do just by my possession of a car. My intentions are as concealed as your CCW, even if the tool is not.
The whole point is that the perception of 'danger' by the mere presence of an object is ignorant prejudice. Just because the car is 'normal' does not negate it's deadly possibilities, nor convince one of imminent danger. Why the hate for guns? It's absolutely no different. The more common OC becomes, the less effective the propaganda-deriven prejudice against it will become. Maybe, someday, people will see how ridiculous it really is to act like cars aren't a threat, but a gun is.
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Grapeshot
Activist Member
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 05:51 pm |
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dlofton wrote:
Peace officers are not any different than anyone else.
Yes they are different - IMO by statute priviledge and authority and must be held to a higher standard.
America is not used to people openly carrying arms.
That is precisely one of the reasons we are involved here - education and acceptance.
BTW - Do you only CC when off duty by choice or by departmental SOP?
Are you trained to so react to a situation of a person peaceably carrying a knife, baseball bat or can of gasoline?
I fully appreciate the dangers and problems faced by LEOs but cannot condone or defend "preemptive" reaction to non-threatening, legal practices.
Yata hey
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lockman
State Researcher
| Joined: | Sat Aug 19th, 2006 |
| Location: | Elgin, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 638 |
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 07:29 pm |
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dlofton wrote: Having been a LEO for 15 years, what I am about to tell you comes from my own personal real life experience, not just what my instructors in the police academy told me.
It is important for the people here to fully appreciate the training processes and the beliefs that instilled in LEO over time. Peace officers are not any different than anyone else. They want to go to work, do a good job, collect a paycheck, and at the end of the day go home to their spouse, kiss the kids, kick the dog, have a cold beer and go to bed. Their job is no different than working at the factory or a hospital or the military. But the training they receive is vastly different than most other professions. The training involves been keenly aware of what is going on around them from a perspective of "it is always better to be judged by twelve than carried by six". This perspective is taught to us on a daily basis. Do whatever you have to do to go home safely to your family because that is how we judge a successful day. It is not about how may people get arrested or how many tickets we write. It is about doing the same thing ever day at the end of the shift...go home alive.
Now, as to how the above paragraph fits into open carrying of firearms. Peace officers are taught from day one at the academy that the person who has the potential to exact the most amount of danger is the person we want to deal with first. This person is the one who has the "proximate capacity" to do the most damage at any one time. A person who has a fireman on their person is the one who our training tells us is the one we should deal with first. To most people on this board this would seem to say that anyone who has a gun displayed openly on their hip, whether or not it is lawfully carried, is target of police. The reality is that this is mostly true. No one left on planet Earth is alive today from the Old West where firearms were only worn without issue. Because of this and the training they receive at the academy, firearms set off some type of alert in our minds as to a perceived danger. I know people view this as unfair when people are openly carrying firearms but it is just a reality that one must face. Most of traditional America is not used to people openly carrying arms. I know this is a hard pill to swallow but it is just true.
I personally do not carry my firearm openly when I am off duty. I don't want to tip my hand so to speak. Something I learned in my military days is not to show your cards. Keep your abilities and mission secret and don't tip off the enemy. It is how you carry yourself you day to day life that makes you a sheep or a wolf...not how you carry your weapon. It is about a mindset, not what you are carrying.
David
I've heard the line, "because I can't carry a cop", but a fireman would be even heavier with all their equipment. 
Sorry I just could not resist that one. Typos do bring needed humor.
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LovesHisXD45
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Utah USA |
| Posts: | 423 |
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 08:55 pm |
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Here is the contact info for the department where Jim Cox worked if anyone here wants to voice their concern about the police position on OC in Oklahoma as well.
Oklahoma Association of Chiefs of Police
E-mail: tammy@okla-chiefs.org
3701 SE 15th Street
Del City, OK 73115
(405) 672-1225/(888) 528-6227/Fax: (405) 670-8763
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dlofton
Regular Member
| Joined: | Fri Oct 24th, 2008 |
| Location: | Schertz, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 65 |
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 04:22 am |
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Please don't get me wrong. I am no against OC at all. I just don't do it myself when I am off duty. Not a requirement for my department to be armed or not off duty.
Look, it is never what tools you have with you that makes you a sheep or a wolf. It is how you carry yourself. For those of you in here that have military training...no, not the basic training security training...I am talking about ATFP Level 2 or higher, you probably know what I am saying. Simply carrying your weapon openly for all the world to see will not make you any safer. It is a mindset of being a wolf that makes the wolf.
As far as the gentlemen that responded to me that the only thing he learned in the Academy was how to stomp on the Bill of Rights and the Constitution...I have seen what you are talking about. I don't condone it and am sad that there are other peace officers out there that have this mentality. But I am not one of them and am for one personally offended whenever I am compared to those type of people.
Really and truly, LEO are just the same as everyone else. They either take their jobs seriously and and honestly try and be professional or the choose to do otherwise and act like idiots. The reality is that those that have the predisposition to do the otherwise would probably act that way no matter what job they perform.
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dlofton
Regular Member
| Joined: | Fri Oct 24th, 2008 |
| Location: | Schertz, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 65 |
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 04:28 am |
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Peace officers are not any different than anyone else.
Yes they are different - IMO by statute priviledge and authority and must be held to a higher standard.
America is not used to people openly carrying arms.
That is precisely one of the reasons we are involved here - education and acceptance.
BTW - Do you only CC when off duty by choice or by departmental SOP?
Are you trained to so react to a situation of a person peaceably carrying a knife, baseball bat or can of gasoline?
I fully appreciate the dangers and problems faced by LEOs but cannot condone or defend "preemptive" reaction to non-threatening, legal practices.
Yata hey
Yes, I am trained to deal with someone carrying a can a gasoline. You should stop and give them a lift to the closest gas station when you pick them up on the side of the road. This way you can help them with their car that ran out of gas. :-) It is the polite thing to do. As far as them carrying a baseball bat, my 13 year old son carries his just about everywhere because he has practice everyday. How I react to this situation usually involves me having to pay upwards of $300 for said bad.
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ixtow
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 04:52 am |
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dlofton wrote: But I am not one of them and am for one personally offended whenever I am compared to those type of people.
Other LEOs here have been far less patriotic, to put it nicely. I've learned to use a bigger magnifying glass on LEOs.
Not comparing you, just seeing what you're made of.
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dlofton
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 05:17 am |
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Don't worry, Ixtow, I have learned to use a bigger magnifying glass on ants. The larger the magnification the faster they fry.
Actually, for the most part I hate the govenment. I don't like having to fill out a 4473 for permission to own something that the Bill of Rights says I am automatically qualified to do in the first place.
For me, if we did away with most of the government is would probably be a good thing. I especially hate the fact that I actually have to go to court and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the people I arrest are guilty of the crime charged. We have to wait around the courthouse all day to testify for 15 minutes about how the suspect volutarily gave me permission to seach his car when I actually just went ahead and used my nighstick to beat it out of him.  In fact, why not just do what they used to do at Auschwitz? Clearly this would be a better use of our tax monies.
As for what I am made of....mostly bull @#$%. I am sure my wife would agree.
David
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LovesHisXD45
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 08:02 pm |
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Just out of curiosity, have there been any credible scientific studies conducted that show evidence that the ordinary petty criminal, which make up the highest percent of aggressors in this country, will target or engage an armed citizen with a sidearm attached to their hip?
I'm getting really tired of all the nay-sayers against open carry toting the notion that the bad guys will go for your gun or take you out first in the commission of a violent crime if you are openly carrying a pistol without scientific proof that this is a rampant problem and/or is the mindset of most of these criminal elements.
Show me some hard evidence. Don't use any military applications either. This isn't Iraq or some 3rd world country. From the stats I've been able to dig up, there is significant evidence that shows criminals are terrified of armed citizens because they believe that an armed civilian is more likely to engage and shoot them if they attempt to commit a crime.
Kevin
Here is an example of some good study with all the footnotes and sources of info to back it up. Also, a link to a good video.
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyoLuTjguJA
Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 07:23 pm by LovesHisXD45
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LovesHisXD45
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Posted: Wed Oct 29th, 2008 07:36 pm |
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That's right... I didn't think so.
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KansasMustang
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 11:52 am |
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Just me sayin it,,but it's BEAR Arms not BARE arms,,one is to hold em, the other means to expose, em...LOL
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LovesHisXD45
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Posted: Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 07:51 pm |
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KansasMustang wrote: Just me sayin it,,but it's BEAR Arms not BARE arms,,one is to hold em, the other means to expose, em...LOL
Which post are your replying to? Your comment has no relevance to the last one posted.
Kevin
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KBCraig
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 06:52 am |
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KansasMustang wrote: Just me sayin it,,but it's BEAR Arms not BARE arms,,one is to hold em, the other means to expose, em...LOL
This site is all about bearing bare arms. 
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