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Dannny L
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 06:59 pm |
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If the driver of the car has a Oregon CHL and keeps the weapon in the glove box can a passenger "that has no permit" in the front seat be considered concealing without a permit. I'm under the assumption that the driver is in control of everything in the car.
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adamsesq
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 09:15 pm |
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Dannny L wrote: If the driver of the car has a Oregon CHL and keeps the weapon in the glove box can a passenger "that has no permit" in the front seat be considered concealing without a permit. I'm under the assumption that the driver is in control of everything in the car.
That's fine right up until.
Officer: Danny, do you know why I pulled you over tonight?
Danny: No Sir.
Officer: Danny, will you step out of the car and come over here on the shoulder while we talk?
Uh Oh - wife in car without CPL is now in a heap of trouble...
Or: Danny and wife are sitting at gas station getting gas and Danny decides he has to run in real quick and use the restroom. Yes, you could take it with you but would you?
Or: Danny and wife run down to post office to pick up registered mail that must be signed for by Danny. Ignoring whether you are already in trouble for parking in the parking lot with it in your car... when you go in to post office and leave wife out there alone...
Of course there are ways around almost anything and carrying a weapon forces us to think multiple steps ahead. I suggest to you that the best thinking ahead you can do here is 1) never put it in your glove box as that is stupid and insecure - either on your person or in a safe, and 2) make sure anyone who might frequently be with you in your vehicle where weapons are also has a CPL.
It is exactly the reasoning behind your question that wifey and I both got our CPLs at the same time.
-adamsesq
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Dannny L
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 09:48 pm |
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adamsesq wrote: Dannny L wrote: If the driver of the car has a Oregon CHL and keeps the weapon in the glove box can a passenger "that has no permit" in the front seat be considered concealing without a permit. I'm under the assumption that the driver is in control of everything in the car.
That's fine right up until.
Officer: Danny, do you know why I pulled you over tonight?
Danny: No Sir.
Officer: Danny, will you step out of the car and come over here on the shoulder while we talk?
Uh Oh - wife in car without CPL is now in a heap of trouble...
Or: Danny and wife are sitting at gas station getting gas and Danny decides he has to run in real quick and use the restroom. Yes, you could take it with you but would you?
Or: Danny and wife run down to post office to pick up registered mail that must be signed for by Danny. Ignoring whether you are already in trouble for parking in the parking lot with it in your car... when you go in to post office and leave wife out there alone...
Of course there are ways around almost anything and carrying a weapon forces us to think multiple steps ahead. I suggest to you that the best thinking ahead you can do here is 1) never put it in your glove box as that is stupid and insecure - either on your person or in a safe, and 2) make sure anyone who might frequently be with you in your vehicle where weapons are also has a CPL.
It is exactly the reasoning behind your question that wifey and I both got our CPLs at the same time.
-adamsesq
I guess we arn't that afraid of sitting in a gas station or parking lot. If the CHL holder isn't in the car it comes out in plain sight. It takes probable cause for them to shake everyone down in the car. If simply getting gas is probable cause then will beat that in court. We are more likely to get some trouble when the gun is seen when it's taken out by someone and not tucked in the glove box. They also can ask the driver to get out and leaving the NON CHL holder in the car, but why search it if no probable cause has been rasied. One more thing, if the CHL holder has been ordered out of the car they already know there may be a gun in the car. I can't see them going further and aresting the NON CHL holder. That too would MOST likely be beaten in court. But I'm still thinking of your sanarios and will give them some thought.
Last edited on Mon Mar 30th, 2009 09:51 pm by Dannny L
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adamsesq
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 09:58 pm |
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I think in most cases that there are ways around there being in trouble. But all it takes is once. I'd rather help people figure out how to stay out of trouble in the first place then you don't have to worry about the hassle of not loosing (note there is often no winning if you find yourself on the wrong side of the law, even if you were right.)
-adamsesq
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Dannny L
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 10:17 pm |
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adamsesq wrote: I think in most cases that there are ways around there being in trouble. But all it takes is once. I'd rather help people figure out how to stay out of trouble in the first place then you don't have to worry about the hassle of not loosing (note there is often no winning if you find yourself on the wrong side of the law, even if you were right.)
-adamsesq
Your so right on that. The ban cities are a concern but other than that I think it is on the driver with the CHL and not the none CHL holder. I have tryed to find Oregon law on this one, but no prevail.
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SKN
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Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 12:15 am |
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To be in constructive possession, one must have knowledge and access. A firearm concealed in a common area of a vehicle may subject an occupant who does not hold an Oregon CHL to arrest and prosecution for possession of a concealed firearm. I have attended and sponsored armed citizens' legal issues classes put on by a practicing attorney in Oregon who once had to defend a client in the following circumstance:
Husband has CHL but wife did not. They go to a post office, husband places pistol in glovebox before entering and returns to the car but leaves the gun in the glovebox. They go on down the road and are stopped by law enforcement who learn of the handgun's location. Wife is arrested and prosecuted for possession of a concealed firearm.
The Oregon State Supreme Court very recently passed down case law which may have application, since the event took place in a trailer home but not a vehicle. They decided that access has to be more substantive than just the presence of a firearm, so perhaps if the glovebox or console is locked access may not be present. But if the firearm is contained in a purse, as an example, and the purse is accessible (on the seat or the floorboard) someone not a CHL holder may be subject to arrest and prosecution. Best alternatives: everyone has a CHL or keep the gun on you.
Last edited on Tue Mar 31st, 2009 12:16 am by SKN
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Dannny L
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Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 04:33 am |
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SKN wrote: To be in constructive possession, one must have knowledge and access. A firearm concealed in a common area of a vehicle may subject an occupant who does not hold an Oregon CHL to arrest and prosecution for possession of a concealed firearm. I have attended and sponsored armed citizens' legal issues classes put on by a practicing attorney in Oregon who once had to defend a client in the following circumstance:
Husband has CHL but wife did not. They go to a post office, husband places pistol in glovebox before entering and returns to the car but leaves the gun in the glovebox. They go on down the road and are stopped by law enforcement who learn of the handgun's location. Wife is arrested and prosecuted for possession of a concealed firearm.
The Oregon State Supreme Court very recently passed down case law which may have application, since the event took place in a trailer home but not a vehicle. They decided that access has to be more substantive than just the presence of a firearm, so perhaps if the glovebox or console is locked access may not be present. But if the firearm is contained in a purse, as an example, and the purse is accessible (on the seat or the floorboard) someone not a CHL holder may be subject to arrest and prosecution. Best alternatives: everyone has a CHL or keep the gun on you.
Sounds like the women had been seen some time before sitting by herself in the car, before the gun location was known by the LE. How did the officer know the CHL holder didn't just put it in the glove box when he returned from the post office? Sounds like the CHL holder admitted to the location without thinking of his wife. Sad the two problems came together. One, she sat in the car and was seen by LE at an earlier time. Two, the husband just didn't say he had just put it in the glove box when he returned. A gun safe will take care of this with only the CHL holder having the combonation. "LOL"
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akmisrmaadi
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Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 09:06 am |
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what a waste we even have to talk about this.
hauling a wife off because there was a gun in the glove box. thats america? puke
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Dannny L
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Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 10:24 am |
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akmisrmaadi wrote: what a waste we even have to talk about this.
hauling a wife off because there was a gun in the glove box. thats america? puke
That has some truth to it but would you want to live anywhere else? I myself wouldn't. Countries like Great Briton and Australia hand guns are band altogether. I will take the glass half full not half empty on this matter. And sites like this one and the NRA help keep it this way here in the good old USA.
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akmisrmaadi
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Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 05:02 pm |
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Dannny L wrote: akmisrmaadi wrote: what a waste we even have to talk about this.
hauling a wife off because there was a gun in the glove box. thats america? puke
That has some truth to it but would you want to live anywhere else? I myself wouldn't. Countries like Great Briton and Australia hand guns are band altogether. I will take the glass half full not half empty on this matter. And sites like this one and the NRA help keep it this way here in the good old USA.
i'd rather live in the US 100 years ago
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Dannny L
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Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 05:48 pm |
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akmisrmaadi wrote: Dannny L wrote: akmisrmaadi wrote: what a waste we even have to talk about this.
hauling a wife off because there was a gun in the glove box. thats america? puke
That has some truth to it but would you want to live anywhere else? I myself wouldn't. Countries like Great Briton and Australia hand guns are band altogether. I will take the glass half full not half empty on this matter. And sites like this one and the NRA help keep it this way here in the good old USA.
i'd rather live in the US 100 years ago
We can only blame the gangs and crime for the degeneration of our gun rights. The law abiding has taken it in the a&& because of a few. Yes, not as many restrictions 100 years ago on our rights that's true, still wouldn't won't to live anywhere else.
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akmisrmaadi
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Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 11:50 pm |
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Dannny L wrote: akmisrmaadi wrote: Dannny L wrote: akmisrmaadi wrote: what a waste we even have to talk about this.
hauling a wife off because there was a gun in the glove box. thats america? puke
That has some truth to it but would you want to live anywhere else? I myself wouldn't. Countries like Great Briton and Australia hand guns are band altogether. I will take the glass half full not half empty on this matter. And sites like this one and the NRA help keep it this way here in the good old USA.
i'd rather live in the US 100 years ago
We can only blame the gangs and crime for the degeneration of our gun rights. The law abiding has taken it in the a&& because of a few. Yes, not as many restrictions 100 years ago on our rights that's true, still wouldn't won't to live anywhere else.
soon there won't be a difference, and you'll want to live here because of the name alone?
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Gunner69
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Posted: Fri Jun 5th, 2009 02:15 pm |
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Dannny L wrote: adamsesq wrote: Dannny L wrote: If the driver of the car has a Oregon CHL and keeps the weapon in the glove box can a passenger "that has no permit" in the front seat be considered concealing without a permit. I'm under the assumption that the driver is in control of everything in the car.
That's fine right up until.
Officer: Danny, do you know why I pulled you over tonight?
Danny: No Sir.
Officer: Danny, will you step out of the car and come over here on the shoulder while we talk?
Uh Oh - wife in car without CPL is now in a heap of trouble...
Or: Danny and wife are sitting at gas station getting gas and Danny decides he has to run in real quick and use the restroom. Yes, you could take it with you but would you?
Or: Danny and wife run down to post office to pick up registered mail that must be signed for by Danny. Ignoring whether you are already in trouble for parking in the parking lot with it in your car... when you go in to post office and leave wife out there alone...
Of course there are ways around almost anything and carrying a weapon forces us to think multiple steps ahead. I suggest to you that the best thinking ahead you can do here is 1) never put it in your glove box as that is stupid and insecure - either on your person or in a safe, and 2) make sure anyone who might frequently be with you in your vehicle where weapons are also has a CPL.
It is exactly the reasoning behind your question that wifey and I both got our CPLs at the same time.
-adamsesq
I guess we arn't that afraid of sitting in a gas station or parking lot. If the CHL holder isn't in the car it comes out in plain sight. It takes probable cause for them to shake everyone down in the car. If simply getting gas is probable cause then will beat that in court. We are more likely to get some trouble when the gun is seen when it's taken out by someone and not tucked in the glove box. They also can ask the driver to get out and leaving the NON CHL holder in the car, but why search it if no probable cause has been rasied. One more thing, if the CHL holder has been ordered out of the car they already know there may be a gun in the car. I can't see them going further and aresting the NON CHL holder. That too would MOST likely be beaten in court. But I'm still thinking of your sanarios and will give them some thought.
And this is the same reasoning I gave the wife to get her CHL... Now that she has it she feels she has to
A) Out purchase me... I have 4 handguns that I use for carry. She has 3 with number 4 and 5 already picked out just waiting on funds.
B) Out shoot me... she is diligently working on this and IS actually quite good.
C) Has started asking questions that I never would have imagined in a million years she would ask... Man it's great when the kool-aid starts wearing off.
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DenWin
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Posted: Sun Jun 7th, 2009 01:05 am |
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| I would still question why you would put it in the glove box at all. It does no good there expect to possibly raise questions and get you or your passenger into trouble, from what it looks. I'd rather have it on me and not need it than not have it while I'm in the quickie mart and need it.
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Gunner69
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Posted: Fri Jun 12th, 2009 02:44 pm |
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Can only think of 2 places right off the top of my head when it wouldnt be attached at the hip so to speak....
The post office and a court house...
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