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Thundar
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 12:40 am |
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massltca wrote: ne1 wrote: It is ironic that PSP justified maintaining this "database" as a tool for returning a recovered firearm to its rightful owner. How this tool is actually being used seems quite different indeed.
That's a crock, they seem more interested in relieving lawful gun owners of their property than returning it. 
I was kicking around an idea in the Virginia forum. What would happen if you placed electrical tape over the serial number of your hand gun? IANAL, but it does not appear to violate either federal or Virginia State law. The PA code is foreign to me. What does it say about obscuring serial numbers?
Assuming that the electrical tape is legal in PA, then how, short of a warrant, could the police legally remove the tape and discover your firearms serial number? No more Habeas Arma!
Habeas Arma Incognetus Numero
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possumboy
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 12:47 am |
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Thundar wrote: I was kicking around an idea in the Virginia forum. What would happen if you placed electrical tape over the serial number of your hand gun? IANAL, but it does not appear to violate either federal or Virginia State law. The PA code is foreign to me. What does it say about obscuring serial numbers?
Assuming that the electrical tape is legal in PA, then how, short of a warrant, could the police legally remove the tape and discover your firearms serial number? No more Habeas Arma!
Habeas Arma Incognetus Numero
The way I see it, they need a warrant to remove my firearm from my holster if I am not doing anything illegal.
If they are willing to do that, removing a piece of tape is not even a thought.
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Thundar
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 01:12 am |
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possumboy wrote: Thundar wrote: I was kicking around an idea in the Virginia forum. What would happen if you placed electrical tape over the serial number of your hand gun? IANAL, but it does not appear to violate either federal or Virginia State law. The PA code is foreign to me. What does it say about obscuring serial numbers?
Assuming that the electrical tape is legal in PA, then how, short of a warrant, could the police legally remove the tape and discover your firearms serial number? No more Habeas Arma!
Habeas Arma Incognetus Numero
The way I see it, they need a warrant to remove my firearm from my holster if I am not doing anything illegal.
If they are willing to do that, removing a piece of tape is not even a thought.
I share your sentiment, but unfortunately there is the Terry v. Ohio ruling. There during a detention based on RAS, not PC, the police officer can disarm you and do a cursory search for police officer safety. If the police officer can remove your gun from you he can read the serial number on the gun. He can use that to querry the imaginary Pennsylvania gun registry that we are learning about, and in the most recent case, claim that the gun's ownership is in doubt and seize the gun. I know that all of this recent stuff is B.S., but why should we allow the police to read the serial number of our guns?
Terry would not permit the removal of electrical tape because the electrical tape does not threaten the safety of the police officer. No way to "check if the gun is yours" if they cannot read the serial number. 
If a police officer removed the electrical tape without a warrant, that would be a clear violation of the 4th Amendment.
- AGAIN IANAL and I cannot confirm with any case law that obscuring a serial number with electrical tape is legal.Last edited on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 01:13 am by Thundar
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imperialism2024
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 01:38 am |
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Hmm from "sterile carry" to "electrical tape carry". Nice. 
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Steve in PA
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Nov 12th, 2006 |
| Location: | Wilkes-Barre |
| Posts: | 118 |
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 02:01 am |
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Terry v. Ohio states the pat down for weapons must be based on the notion that the person may be armed and dangerous.
The officer cannot merely walk up to a person and pat him down as a matter of course. The officer would have to articulate why he felt the person may be armed and/or dangerous.
The officer can ask if he can pat you down. If you agree.........oh well. You gave consent to the pat down.
If an officer thinks you are carrying concealed..........is that justification for the pat down? Since concealed carry is a legal act and permitted by law......what makes the officer think he might be a threat? The mere carrying? Officer safety is usually the reason for the disarming and I think the courts have seen this as something the officer should be allowed to do. The police have no idea how the other person may react, so allowing him to stand there with a weapon is not a smart or prudent thing to do.
Okay, so for whatever reason the officer patted you down and took your weapon for officer safety, why run the serial number? To see if its stolen? Based on what? The courts have ruled that the "data base" is NOT for ownership. It is only a data base for the sale and transfer of firearms in PA.
What happens is the weapon either does not come back to the person or its not found in the "data base" and the un-knowing officer then seizes what he thinks is an illegal weapon. Sorry..............you just screwed up officer.
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 02:13 am |
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| manipulating the gun without at least a 2 part Terry stop finding (Fist RAS, then "armed and presently dangerous" - almost a 3 part test!) is a violation of the Fourth Amendment - see serial number case at Arizona v. Hicks.
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Statkowski
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 02:16 am |
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I could be wrong, but electrical tape covering the serial number could be a big no-no:
18 Pa. C.S. §6117. Altering or Obliterating Marks of Identification.
(a) Offense defined. - No person shall change, alter, remove, or obliterate the manufacturer’s number integral to the frame or receiver of any firearm which shall have the same meaning as provided in section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use,
manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms).
(b) Presumption. - Possession of any firearm upon which any such mark shall have been changed, altered, removed or obliterated shall be prima facie evidence that the possessor has changed, altered, removed or obliterated the same.
(c) Penalty. - A violation of this section constitutes a felony of the second degree.
Covering the serial number could be viewed as obliterating.
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massltca
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 02:16 am |
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Just a thought, why would an officer need to pat you down for weapons if the weapon is in plain sight?
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Thundar
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 02:19 am |
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imperialism2024 wrote: Hmm from "sterile carry" to "electrical tape carry". Nice.
Open Carry Activist Bag of Tools:
1. Gun
2. Guns save lives button
3. State pamphlet
4. Voice recorder
5. Sterile carry
6. Am I being detained?
7. Electrical Tape
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imperialism2024
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 03:03 am |
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Steve in PA wrote: If an officer thinks you are carrying concealed..........is that justification for the pat down? Since concealed carry is a legal act and permitted by law......what makes the officer think he might be a threat? The mere carrying? Officer safety is usually the reason for the disarming and I think the courts have seen this as something the officer should be allowed to do. The police have no idea how the other person may react, so allowing him to stand there with a weapon is not a smart or prudent thing to do.
I'm not disagreeing with your overall post, but I feel it necessary to make a minor correction... in Pennsylvania, it is illegal to carry concealed, unless one has a LTCF. Unlike open carry, which is legal unless it can be proven that one is a prohibited person.
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Prophet
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 03:42 am |
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| I disagree with the electrical tape as "obliterating" the serial number. I would say its only covering it. To say it was obliterating it would be the same as saying you're obliterating it by carrying it in a holster that covers it up.
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Steve in PA
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Nov 12th, 2006 |
| Location: | Wilkes-Barre |
| Posts: | 118 |
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 05:36 am |
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imperialism2024 wrote: Steve in PA wrote: If an officer thinks you are carrying concealed..........is that justification for the pat down? Since concealed carry is a legal act and permitted by law......what makes the officer think he might be a threat? The mere carrying? Officer safety is usually the reason for the disarming and I think the courts have seen this as something the officer should be allowed to do. The police have no idea how the other person may react, so allowing him to stand there with a weapon is not a smart or prudent thing to do.
I'm not disagreeing with your overall post, but I feel it necessary to make a minor correction... in Pennsylvania, it is illegal to carry concealed, unless one has a LTCF. Unlike open carry, which is legal unless it can be proven that one is a prohibited person.
Correct.
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Thundar
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 12:57 pm |
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Statkowski wrote: I could be wrong, but electrical tape covering the serial number could be a big no-no:
18 Pa. C.S. §6117. Altering or Obliterating Marks of Identification.
(a) Offense defined. - No person shall change, alter, remove, or obliterate the manufacturer’s number integral to the frame or receiver of any firearm which shall have the same meaning as provided in section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use,
manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms).
(b) Presumption. - Possession of any firearm upon which any such mark shall have been changed, altered, removed or obliterated shall be prima facie evidence that the possessor has changed, altered, removed or obliterated the same.
(c) Penalty. - A violation of this section constitutes a felony of the second degree.
Covering the serial number could be viewed as obliterating.
IANAL, but I think that there is a significant element of destruction and permanency in an obliterate definition.
I have a S&W 642 J Frame that I bought new with Crimson Laser Grips. The grips were factory installed by S&W. The grips cover the serial number. Obliterate is part of the federal law as well. If obliterate meant cover, then every 642 shipped would be a felony when transfered from manufacturer to dealer and a felony again when transferred from dealer to gun owner (me).
I have not yet seen any federal or state case law on what constitutes obliterate.
So I think you are correct. Covering could be viewed as obliterating, but I don't read it that way. IANAL, IANAL
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Statkowski
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 01:38 pm |
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So I think you are correct. Covering could be viewed as obliterating, but I don't read it that way.
You don't see it that way, and I don't see it that way, but would an overly zealous district attorney see it that way?
Of course, you could have the tape on the firearm to protect the finish....
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 02:17 pm |
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The real issue on gun SNs is that absent a lawful seizure of the gun, the police have no power to manipulate and record the serial number at all!
To be lawfully seized, not only must the carrier have been seized lawfully, but the second prong of Terry for the pat down/weapon removal must be satisfied - a reasonable beliefe that the person is both "armed and presently dangerous."
All these recent serial number checks in PA and now being discussed appear unlawful - evidence of other crimes, like obliterating serial numbers, would be therefore suppressed anyway.
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DocV
Regular Member
| Joined: | Wed Mar 5th, 2008 |
| Location: | Virginia Beach |
| Posts: | 190 |
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 03:13 pm |
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A quick definition
obliterate (ə-blĭt'ə-rāt', ō-blĭt'-) 
tr.v., -at·ed, -at·ing, -ates.
- To do away with completely so as to leave no trace.
- To wipe out, rub off, or erase (writing or other markings).
- Medicine. To remove completely (a body organ or part), as by surgery, disease, or radiation.
[Latin oblitterāre, oblitterāt-, to erase, from ob litterās (scrībere), (to write) over letters (ob, over; see ob– + litterās, accusative pl. of littera, letter) and from oblītus, past participle of oblīvīscī, to forget; see oblivion.]
obliteration o·blit'er·a'tion n.
obliterative o·blit'er·a'tive (-ə-rā'tĭv, -ər-ə-tĭv) adj.
obliterator o·blit'er·a'tor n.
Last edited on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 03:17 pm by DocV
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Statkowski
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 03:25 pm |
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| Based on the previous definition, it sounds like electrical tape may well just be a winner.
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DickTracy1953
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 14th, 2008 09:16 pm |
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I have a S&W 642 J Frame that I bought new with Crimson Laser Grips. The grips were factory installed by S&W. The grips cover the serial number. Obliterate is part of the federal law as well. If obliterate meant cover, then every 642 shipped would be a felony when transferred from manufacturer to dealer and a felony again when transferred from dealer to gun owner (me).
I think he is on to something...... What about the use of grips that cover up the serial numbers.
If I recall, I owned a Colt or a Smith & Wesson wheel gun that only had the serial number on the grip base of the frame. Many aftermarket grips or target style grips would completely cover the serial number. A LEO would have to remove the set of grips to read the serial number. I am wondering if they could do that without a search warrant.
Last edited on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 09:21 pm by DickTracy1953
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ne1
Regular Member
| Joined: | Fri Jul 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 450 |
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Offline
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Posted: Wed Sep 17th, 2008 09:24 pm |
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| Without reasonable cause to believe a firearm was stolen or used in a crime, there is no justification for the police to take custody (the gun certainly does not belong to THEM). In any case the Pa. UFA (Sect. 6105(f)(4))specifically states that a receipt must be provided- why are LEOs so lax in enforcing this provision of the law?
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Statkowski
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Sep 17th, 2008 10:15 pm |
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| Because nobody follows through with a private criminal complaint against the offending officer?
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