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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 11:39 am |
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Wow - talk about an Orwellian response by the City of Wilkes Barre!
The Pennsylvania Supreme Court says that the State Police handgun transfer database is a "non-ownership registry," Allegheny County Sportsmen's League v. Rendell, 580 Pa. 149, 860 A.2d 10, 22, n.7 (Pa. 2004).
So to Wilkes Barre, that means the database contains "weapon ownership information."
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http://www.citizensvoice.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19763651&BRD=2259&PAG=461&dept_id=571464&rfi=6
‘Open carry’ issue occurs in city
06/11/2008
[url=javascript: openEmailWindow();]
A simmering issue over the right to openly bear arms in public made its way to Wilkes-Barre this weekend.
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Police stopped a New Jersey man with a gun in a holster on his hip around 9:30 p.m. Saturday at Sherman and South streets.
Upon questioning the man, police seized his gun and took it to headquarters. He was then free to go and wasn’t charged.
Officers took the gun because initial reports were the man had the gun in his hand and “proper ownership of the weapon could not be established,” the city said in a press release Tuesday. The gun will remain in police custody until ownership is established, the release said.
A dozen members of a gun rights group brought this “open carry” issue to the forefront last month by openly carrying their guns into dinner at a Dickson City restaurant. The group is criticizing Wilkes-Barre police’s actions.
“They had no lawful right to seize his property. There is no more reason to establish ownership of a handgun than it is for your cell phone,” said Mike Stollenwerk, co-founder of OpenCarry.org. “We now have two instances in the same region of Pennsylvania in which police think they could confiscate guns under this color of proving ownership.”
Pennsylvania does not have a gun registry. A Philadelphia lawmaker last year introduced a bill to create one, but it failed badly.
In the aftermath of the Dickson City case, Lackawanna County District Attorney Andy Jarbola said, in general, people have a right to openly carry a weapon without having to show identification or a permit.
“Police can ask, but if they don’t want to give it, they don’t have to,” he said. “It’s going to be surprising to the public, but that’s the current state of law.”
Police officials and attorneys at the time noted police could not confiscate someone’s gun to check ownership without reasonable suspicion.
Wilkes-Barre police say they were called to investigate the incident on Saturday when neighbors made a complaint of a man standing at East Northampton and Sherman streets with a gun in his hand.
That was not reasonable suspicion of any crime, said Stollenwerk.
Stollenwerk is not sure how exactly the man will “establish ownership.” Some gun owners do not have any paper documentation, he said.
“I have nothing, except that it’s on my hip or in my gun safe,” he said.
City spokeswoman Bridget Giunta said the person was stopped because “officers responded to a complaint of a man with a gun in his hand.” She said weapon ownership information is maintained by the state police and stolen status can also be ascertained by running the serial number through a database.
The “open carry” movement is apparently gaining popularity nationwide. The Los Angeles Times last week published a comprehensive story about the growing movement, noting it is legal, but often frowned upon by police.
The story was called, “Packing in public: Gun owners tired of hiding their weapons embrace ‘open carry.’”
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possumboy
Supporting Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 12:10 pm |
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I do not know if I can convey this thought correctly:
Wilkes-Barre police is now on record stating they are using the State Police handgun transfer database in a way contrary to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruling.
That cannot be good for them.
Sounds like they are trying to cover up one mistake with something that might sound good, but is a against current case law.
Last edited on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 12:10 pm by possumboy
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deepdiver
Activist Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Missouri USA |
| Posts: | 4508 |
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Offline
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 01:31 pm |
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Wow, talk about abuse of authority. I would also be interested in hearing the 911 tapes (which we know from another thread can be hidden, er kept, from the public) to find out if the "man with a gun in his hand" is even true. The police could be just lying through their teeth about that considering that they can withhold the 911 tapes and never have to prove that part of their story.
And this is how it works. First they violated a PA supreme court ruling and state law and then anything they have done becomes suspect and people wonder how many other illegal or unethical things they have done. LEOs are often their own worst enemy in the public relations battle.
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Pa. Patriot
State Researcher
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 02:09 pm |
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| Tomorrow is WB city council's monthly regular session
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Aran
Banned
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 02:21 pm |
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If anyone from out here in the west plans to attend, I'd like to tag along in any potential carpools.
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 02:24 pm |
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Pa. Patriot wrote: Tomorrow is WB city council's monthly regular session
Good thinking!
But as our man "AJ" in New Jersey has not really surfaced in this matter, I do not think the time is yet ripe to go to the City Council and speak - we need more details and more time for the police to do the right thing and maybe contact AJ and rush his gun to him thru a PA FFL to a NJ FFL.
AJ should not have to pay $4+ per gallon to drive to PA to get his gun back!
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ne1
Supporting Member
| Joined: | Fri Jul 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 442 |
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 06:19 pm |
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| It is ironic that PSP justified maintaining this "database" as a tool for returning a recovered firearm to its rightful owner. How this tool is actually being used seems quite different indeed.
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Rogue9er
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 06:37 pm |
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Mike wrote: Pa. Patriot wrote: Tomorrow is WB city council's monthly regular session
Good thinking!
But as our man "AJ" in New Jersey has not really surfaced in this matter, I do not think the time is yet ripe to go to the City Council and speak - we need more details and more time for the police to do the right thing and maybe contact AJ and rush his gun to him thru a PA FFL to a NJ FFL.
AJ should not have to pay $4+ per gallon to drive to PA to get his gun back!
As I understand it PA Patriot is working with him to make something happen. Many of the experienced guys and some attorneys are on the ball for this. So far they've advised him to keep quiet for the moment. I've been watching this over on pafoa.
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imperialism2024
Supporting Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 07:02 pm |
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Pa. Patriot wrote: Tomorrow is WB city council's monthly regular session
Gotta love those city council meetings...
Actually, I might be heading up to Scranton tomorrow night to pick up a friend later in the evening...
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deepdiver
Activist Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Missouri USA |
| Posts: | 4508 |
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Offline
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 08:46 pm |
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imperialism2024 wrote: Pa. Patriot wrote: Tomorrow is WB city council's monthly regular session
Gotta love those city council meetings...
Actually, I might be heading up to Scranton tomorrow night to pick up a friend later in the evening... Oh yeah ... a "wink wink nudge nudge" friend or a "grab a six pack, rebuild the truck tranny, clean the guns and watch the game" friend? Just being nosey 
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gnbrotz
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 08:54 pm |
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Pa. Patriot wrote: Tomorrow is WB city council's monthly regular session Never mind. I was looking at the 2007 schedule.
Last edited on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 08:54 pm by gnbrotz
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Statkowski
Supporting Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 09:28 pm |
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Wilkes-Barre City Council meeting - regular session
6:00 PM, Thursday, July 10, 2008
Located in City Council Chambers on the 4th floor of City Hall - 40 East Market Street, Wilkes-Barre.
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gnbrotz
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 09:31 pm |
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For those who can make it, don't forget to OC!
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massltca
Supporting Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 09:31 pm |
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ne1 wrote: It is ironic that PSP justified maintaining this "database" as a tool for returning a recovered firearm to its rightful owner. How this tool is actually being used seems quite different indeed.
That's a crock, they seem more interested in relieving lawful gun owners of their property than returning it. 
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gnbrotz
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 10:46 pm |
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Posted by Pa. Patriot over on PAFOA:
Due to numerous circumstances we have decided next month session will be a better choice. Will start a separate thread at the appropriate time. Looks like things will be delayed until next month.
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Statkowski
Supporting Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 11:23 pm |
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Looks like things will be delayed until next month.
Agreed, especially since this month's meeting was yesterday.
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gnbrotz
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 11:29 pm |
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ThStatkowski wrote: Looks like things will be delayed until next month.
Agreed, especially since this month's meeting was yesterday.
That was only a "work session". Tomorrow is their "regular session"....the page could certainly be formatted better!
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VApatriot
Supporting Member
| Joined: | Mon May 8th, 2006 |
| Location: | Burke, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 520 |
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Offline
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 12:17 am |
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| Can anyone speak on the claim that the OCer was holding his gun in his hand? Was he brandishing; did the 911 caller make a false statement, or is the article just wrong?
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 12:41 am |
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VApatriot wrote: Can anyone speak on the claim that the OCer was holding his gun in his hand? Was he brandishing; did the 911 caller make a false statement, or is the article just wrong?
Nobody can speak to this - 911 calls are not FOIAable, the victim is not talking, etc.
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imperialism2024
Supporting Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 01:49 am |
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deepdiver wrote: imperialism2024 wrote: Pa. Patriot wrote: Tomorrow is WB city council's monthly regular session
Gotta love those city council meetings...
Actually, I might be heading up to Scranton tomorrow night to pick up a friend later in the evening... Oh yeah ... a "wink wink nudge nudge" friend or a "grab a six pack, rebuild the truck tranny, clean the guns and watch the game" friend? Just being nosey
Well, um... 
Anyhow, I guess I'll pencil in next month's city council meeting...
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