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modelo57
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Aug 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 93 |
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 04:04 pm |
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| Must be my connection, I'll try later.
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AbNo
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 01:02 am |
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modelo57 wrote:
Must be my connection, I'll try later.
Try right-clicking on the link and saving the file, then opening it that way.
Also, make sure your Acrobat is updated to fairly recently.
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 12:51 pm |
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| Gun week article on the Law suits: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum63/13376.html
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Statkowski
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 06:11 pm |
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Case Management Plan available here: http://paopencarry.org/dicksoncity/mgmtplan.pdf
Both cases combined, justice slowly grinds on.
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hsmith
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Mar 29th, 2007 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 1670 |
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Posted: Thu Sep 25th, 2008 04:36 am |
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Northern-Lights wrote: Phonetic Diabetic wrote: After reading this for the 1st time, I'm just bewildered at how little some LEOs actually know about gun laws. Of all people out there, they should be the most knowledgeable. The whole, "He told me this, so I had to ask the ADA if it was right....." thing just bugs the living hell out of me.
Don't be so fast to judge them. First....there are hundreds....no, thousands of laws. They can't possibly know them all.
They did the right thing by calling the ADA and asking for an update. Notice, even the ADA had to brush up on the law...and he lives in that stuff all the time.
Bottom line is this....yes, it may be our right to carry....but expect to meet up with LEO's who don't know this...and haven't come across anyone exercising that right. Be calm.....be polite.....don't say or do anything stupid which will add fuel to the fire to change the law. If anyone makes a stupid statement or action....let it be the LEO's or the general public.
Then, if wrong's are committed......take appropriate action. Just don't be surprised when the ignorant masses are surprised and offended that you are carrying. After all....they've been lied to by the liberal masses for decades.
I respectfully DISAGREE.
Citizens are expected to follow ALL laws and behave accordingly "i didn't know the law" won't get you out of jail.
Police should be expected to function the same way.
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libertyrules
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 04:34 pm |
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+1
Leo's should be expected to know the basic gun carry laws in their state. If ignorance of gun rights is so prevalent, then some kind of legislative oversight of Leo training might be in order. Part of the problem is, as was pointed out above, that liberal weenies have been pushing their anti-gun agenda ever since Pres Reagan and Brady were ambushed and shot. We are fast becoming a Socialist country, and the liberal elite will always come down on the side of "gun regulation" & confiscation.
What we are seeing here in America is a resurgence of sovereignty vs governmental bullying, which is a good thing. But we should take heart in the fact that gun owners are closing ranks and resisting the anti-gunners' game, by taking a level-headed proactive stance such as the ones in the restaurant took.
Our liberty must never be taken for granted. We must and will continue to fight for our right to defend ourselves and our loved ones. When enough battles are waged and won, law enforcement will be forced to re-evaluate their position that they should be the only ones carrying guns.
In this little town where I live in CO, I have taken a stance that I will carry, open or concealed, as I please. It comes at a price, but I have forced the Leos here to back off. Ordinary citizens need to be educated regarding gun rights. By openly carrying my gun on my hip wherever I go, they are slowly getting the message. They know about my little confrontation with the local police here, yet I'm still
oc-ing in town, and the leo's aren't bothering me anymore. That does send a positive message.
First you take a stance, and then deal with the consequences. Choose your battles carefully, then go for it. The "Dickson Dozen" did exactly that. They took their RKBA stance, chose their battle, and faced the consequences. Of curse they knew there would be a confrontation with law enforcement, if not that night, then another night. But they knew, and were prepared to deal with it. By the time this is over, one town will for sure will be well-versed in gun carry laws, from the rank-and-file, to the DA and mayor.
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S.E.WI
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 27th, 2008 04:28 pm |
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libertyrules wrote: +1
Leo's should be expected to know the basic gun carry laws in their state. If ignorance of gun rights is so prevalent, then some kind of legislative oversight of Leo training might be in order. Part of the problem is, as was pointed out above, that liberal weenies have been pushing their anti-gun agenda ever since Pres Reagan and Brady were ambushed and shot. We are fast becoming a Socialist country, and the liberal elite will always come down on the side of "gun regulation" & confiscation.
What we are seeing here in America is a resurgence of sovereignty vs governmental bullying, which is a good thing. But we should take heart in the fact that gun owners are closing ranks and resisting the anti-gunners' game, by taking a level-headed proactive stance such as the ones in the restaurant took.
Our liberty must never be taken for granted. We must and will continue to fight for our right to defend ourselves and our loved ones. When enough battles are waged and won, law enforcement will be forced to re-evaluate their position that they should be the only ones carrying guns.
In this little town where I live in CO, I have taken a stance that I will carry, open or concealed, as I please. It comes at a price, but I have forced the Leos here to back off. Ordinary citizens need to be educated regarding gun rights. By openly carrying my gun on my hip wherever I go, they are slowly getting the message. They know about my little confrontation with the local police here, yet I'm still
oc-ing in town, and the leo's aren't bothering me anymore. That does send a positive message.
First you take a stance, and then deal with the consequences. Choose your battles carefully, then go for it. The "Dickson Dozen" did exactly that. They took their RKBA stance, chose their battle, and faced the consequences. Of curse they knew there would be a confrontation with law enforcement, if not that night, then another night. But they knew, and were prepared to deal with it. By the time this is over, one town will for sure will be well-versed in gun carry laws, from the rank-and-file, to the DA and mayor.
Could you tell us how you managed to get LE to back off? Here in WI we have a state constitutional right to bear arms for security and defense that is being denied. A disorderly conduct charge is the norm if someone calls the police about someone open carrying. (concealed carry for active and retired LE only) The court here has determined that our need for security and defense is at its apex only when in our home or business. Any ideas for us? From everything I have found, it's the state's actors that are violating the law. Thanks in advance.
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rodbender
Founder's Club Member
| Joined: | Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Elgin, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1181 |
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Posted: Sun Sep 28th, 2008 02:20 am |
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| You are probably going to have to find a lawyer willing to take it all the way if need be.
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Statkowski
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 28th, 2008 02:43 am |
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Could you tell us how you managed to get LE to back off?
You complain. If that doesn't work, you complain some more. You file a written complaint against the police officer with the police department. If possible, you try to file a criminal complaint against the police officer for official oppression, abuse of office, wrongful arrest, deprivation of civil rights, etc., etc. If necessary, sue the police officers and police department in state court. Fight any disorderly conduct charge made on you for lawful conduct. Attend municipal council meetings and make your objections known, on the record. Get others to complain.
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rodbender
Founder's Club Member
| Joined: | Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Elgin, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1181 |
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Posted: Sun Sep 28th, 2008 05:23 am |
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Statkowski wrote: If necessary, sue the police officers and police department in state court.
I think Federal Court would be better. It keeps it out of the hands of the locals. Knowhutimean?
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codename_47
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Jun 16th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 330 |
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 02:09 pm |
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I think Federal Court would be better. It keeps it out of the hands of the locals. Knowhutimean?
+10
1983 cases belong in Federal.
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 05:02 pm |
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codename_47 wrote: I think Federal Court would be better. It keeps it out of the hands of the locals. Knowhutimean?
+10
1983 cases belong in Federal.
Not if the issue is state law - federal courts cannot directly rule on state law against state government - no jurisdiction. See Chet's case in Virginia pages.
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Thundar
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 05:16 pm |
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S.E.WI wrote:
Could you tell us how you managed to get LE to back off? Here in WI we have a state constitutional right to bear arms for security and defense that is being denied. A disorderly conduct charge is the norm if someone calls the police about someone open carrying. (concealed carry for active and retired LE only) The court here has determined that our need for security and defense is at its apex only when in our home or business. Any ideas for us? From everything I have found, it's the state's actors that are violating the law. Thanks in advance.
Make it so painful that they want to turn and run away when they see you. It isn't a quick silver bullet, but it works. Use whatever sunshine or FOIA laws you have, take pictures of police misconduct go to town council meetings, write letters to the editor, run for town council, etc.
Police hate paperwork. FOIA requests create huge paperwork nightmares for them. I really think many LEOs fear paperwork more than anything else.
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jahwarrior72
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 07:00 pm |
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libertyrules wrote:
First you take a stance, and then deal with the consequences. Choose your battles carefully, then go for it. The "Dickson Dozen" did exactly that. They took their RKBA stance, chose their battle, and faced the consequences. Of curse they knew there would be a confrontation with law enforcement, if not that night, then another night. But they knew, and were prepared to deal with it. By the time this is over, one town will for sure will be well-versed in gun carry laws, from the rank-and-file, to the DA and mayor.
actually, we didn't. according to most of the guys that have attended other OC dinners, this was the first time they got a negative reaction from the public and local LEOs at a get-together. and we weren't "picking a battle," we were picking what we wanted to eat: ham, or ribs. just a little reminder.
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 07:44 pm |
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Don't be so fast to judge them. First....there are hundreds....no, thousands of laws. They can't possibly know them all.
As a former cop... Those laws you might be expected to commonly deal with on your post (at least) are second nature. OC is an obviously legal activity in PA that even the average citizen is aware of. Ignorance on the part of the cops is deplorable. This entire incident was deplorable on many levels. IMHO... incompetence and ignorant bias were rampant.
The public is held accountable to obey all laws... ignorance of the 'law' is no excuse.
LEO's should be held to at least the same standards... or find another line of work.
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libertyrules
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 10:53 pm |
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Could you tell us how you managed to get LE to back off?
I won't get into specifics, but just being firm, without being confrontational, at the right moment(s) may have done the trick. That, plus the fact that I OC here as if it were the most natural thing to do. There are many in this town (thanks to the the anti-gunner's crusade) who are horrified at the thought of me carrying a gun, but I just continue to OC anyway.
No place of business here has ever said a word about me OCing in their store, and that includes the local bank. And I earned respect from quite a few people who know me here.
Behind the the answer to the question of "how?", lies the more important question of "Why?".
I must say, it would be much simpler for me to just CC. But I have to look at it from a wider perspective, one in which our individual liberties are at stake here. The social progressives will literally take everything, unless we fight for our rights. Unless we are willing to fight for our first and second amendments, we had best prepare ourselves for a mind-set which includes being thankful for being allowed to exist in a political reality where the individual is always sacrificed for "the greater good". That rubs against the grain for me.
History provides us with numerous examples of such insanity: Stalin's USSR, Communist China under Mao, Hitler's Nazi Germany, Pol Pot's Cambodia - and the list grows now to include countries where the Islamists have gained control of the government. Darfur and Somalia come to mind. Gun control and confiscation were among the very first policies carried out by the Islamic governments.
Indeed, that has always been the case.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ24YWOTVrs
Last edited on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 02:26 am by libertyrules
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S.E.WI
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 05:43 pm |
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Sonora Rebel wrote: Don't be so fast to judge them. First....there are hundreds....no, thousands of laws. They can't possibly know them all.
As a former cop... Those laws you might be expected to commonly deal with on your post (at least) are second nature. OC is an obviously legal activity in PA that even the average citizen is aware of. Ignorance on the part of the cops is deplorable. This entire incident was deplorable on many levels. IMHO... incompetence and ignorant bias were rampant.
The public is held accountable to obey all laws... ignorance of the 'law' is no excuse.
LEO's should be held to at least the same standards... or find another line of work.
EXACTLY!! You also know the oath you had to take to become a police officer as should they.
The 2A and Article VI of the constitution have been around for over 200 years. "Shall not be infringed" should be very clear to everyone. Article VI is important for LEO's also and has been passed over for too long.
ARTICLE VI.
All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the confederation. This constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding. The senators and representatives before−mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
As you can see, state legislators, state and federal judges, federal legislators and LE are acting contrary to the supreme law of the land. We the people had better wakeup and wakeup soon.
As far as ignorance of the law, how can anyone know them all and then when you think you understand it some judge will make a ruling that changes it. We're all in the dark unless you can read minds.
Every victim in locations that have had their rights through acts or legislation needs to sue under USC 42 1983.
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S.E.WI
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 06:24 pm |
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Mike wrote: codename_47 wrote: I think Federal Court would be better. It keeps it out of the hands of the locals. Knowhutimean?
+10
1983 cases belong in Federal.
Not if the issue is state law - federal courts cannot directly rule on state law against state government - no jurisdiction. See Chet's case in Virginia pages.
"The Constitution was interpreted, in 1819, as giving the Supreme Court the power to invalidate any state actions that interfere with the Constitution and the laws and treaties passed pursuant to it. That power is not itself explicitly set out in the Constitution but was declared to exist by the Supreme Court in the decision of McCulloch v. Maryland"
I found this in part of Article VI of the constitution. IANAL but it seems that state laws can be invalidated by the Supreme Court. When and how to apply this will require a good lawyer. Think of all the gun laws that interfere with the constitution, 2A.
I hope it helps.
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Aran
Banned
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Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 06:30 pm |
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Think of all the federal laws that are against the Constitution.
Oops, there goes your argument.
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AFCop
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 07:57 pm |
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Aran wrote: Think of all the federal laws that are against the Constitution.
Oops, there goes your argument.
Like what?
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